STILL a difference with LAG on LCDs vs CRTs

what you are experiencing is probably motion blur / smearing which is not an uncommon thing to see with fast motion on LCDs. But, while CRT eliminates this issue, you still get the flicker of an interlaced crt display, as opposed to a smooth, progressive LCD picture.

Too bad it is that flicker that gets rid of the blur. See the LCD bluring thread below. Until they add flicker to LCDs or find another way to get around retinal retention then LCD (or any other tech that doesn't flicker) will have blur, no matter how high the refresh rate.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post12480086

Be sure to read the rest of the thread as well.

Maybe you didn't mean to imply it, but interlaced CRTs aren't better at motion than non-interlaced. And non-interlaced CRTs aren't perceived as flickering.

could just be the olveia as I havent noticed a thing on vizio, samsung, mits, toshiba, sharp or sony.

But they still flicker, it isn't the interlaced signal causing the flicker (although it does add to it) but the CRT tech itself and how it makes the image. Read through the thread I posted, it goes into a lot of detail as to why LCD/DLP/LCOS all blur yet CRT doesn't (esspecially the post I linked to, read the wiki link as well, it does a very good job of explaining it)

No you arent crazy, the problem lies with how LCD produces an image. With LCD you get a consistantly bright image at 60fps, it is hard for the human eye to decode that image and it results in percieved loss of detail in the picture when in motion. Flicker helps refresh the eye and keep it refocusing on each new frame as it comes up, the LCD does have a smooter image than the CRT, but the CRT's flicker convinces your eye that the CRT is infact smoother. The LCD will always seem to have less detail durring motion, it is just how the human eye works. If they could figure out a way to refresh the eye like flicker does, then LCD would have smooth motion as well. I took the middle road by getting a Plasma which flickers at a lower rate than a CRT, but it does make a differance in percieved motion. While no CRT it does have a visible improvement over an LCD in the motion department.

The thread I linked to above really gets into that problem and while there is no solution yet, turning a light on in the room seems to help a bit. Read the wiki entry as well to get a better grasp on it.

I watch sports and play video games on my PS3 and don't have these issues with my Vizio GV52FHD 1080p.

Sorry DarkFudge but I have none of these issues on my 6ms Sharp 57" with the Quick Shoot Chip. I'm not saying it NEVER occurs but it's so rare as to be a non-issue as I wouldn't trade one minute of viewing my 57" Sharp versus my Sony 36" CRT - the CRT was to be watched whereas my Sharp is an WoW Factor Experience (same holds true for my 45") the CRT never replicated - one is an Experience and the Other (CRT) is simply viewing the content. I donated that 2 yr old Sony to a charity for a tax write-off and have zero regrets and own four LCD TV's - three Sharps and one Sony.

Everytime I go on vacation where they still have CRT's I wanna puke everytime I have to view those crappy 4:3 boxes reflecting the room back at me for a week and not all had reference colors and when I return home I'm blown away by my Sharp and the Hotel had large CRT's at the Ritz in Naples, FL but they sucked compared to my LCD experience. Next vacation in May at Hilton Head we're staying at a Condo with four flat panel TV's and zero CRT's.

No comparison IMO with LCD being a home theater experience that still provides wow factor daily 16 months later and I owned one of the best CRT's ever produced and could not replicate the WoW.

Lag (within a TV) is a totally separate issue, not what you're describing. Lag would be you press a button, then X amount of time later the action actually happens on screen. Lag on LCDs is pretty much the same amount as on CRTs, varying by model of course.

As for motion being jerky or choppy, it almost sounds like when a game bogs down and goes to a slower framerate, but I don't know why an LCD would cause this - how is normal TV viewing?

This is not true, for LCD computer monitors at least, and I can't think of any reason it would be different for LCD televisions. Most LCD computer monitors have been demonstrated to actually have video processing lag - there is a lag between the time an image is produced by the source (e.g. the video card in your computer) and displayed on the LCD screen. There is no such lag with CRTs.

See here for examples: http://www.behardware.com/articles/6...-3rd-wave.html

Here's an excerpt:

If you didn't already know, almost all LCD monitors have a small delay in display. To measure this, we photograph a chronometer which is precise to 1/1000th of a second displayed in clone mode on our reference CRT and the LCD we are testing. We take 12 consecutive differences, eliminating the two extremes and then find the average delay. The most reactive model measured up until now is the 22 inch Iiyama ProLite E2201W, which had no delay on our 12 measurements. Normally, we find a delay between 10 and 30 ms on most screens.

10-30 ms delay, for a source refreshing at 60 frames per second, amounts to a 1-2 frame delay. I've seen other LCD reviews where they actually display a frame counter in a game on both a CRT and an LCD, and photos show that the LCD display is several frames behind the CRT.

This fact does not get nearly as much attention as it should. In action games where reaction time is critical, e.g. first person shooters, if your reactions are a few frames behind your opponents it can easily be the difference between fragging or being fragged.

Some errors in this thread. However, these points are difficult to understand, so read and then think and then ask if still not clear.

1) Simple and inexpensive HDTVs have about the same amount of lag whether CRT or LCD. When an NTSC (analog) tuner switches channels, the new channel appears immediately. When an ATSC (digital) tuner switches channels, there is a perceptable lag, caused by first tuning to a new frequency, then synchronizing with the digital bitstream, then decoding. However, an HDTV must be capable (by FCC regulations) of accepting all formats of broadcast HD signals (720p, 1080i, etc.). They do this typically with a fixed resolution scaler that accepts any such signal and scales to the native resolution of the screen.

2) The lag in games attached via video interfaces is also non-zero on most LCD/Plasma (i.e. digital) monitors. These monitors contain video frame buffers and they buffer up several frames before display. This allows the monitor to do 3:2 pulldown detection, dynamic contrast enhancement, frame interpolation, deinterlacing, etc. These actions are performed in an internal "video processor" built into the LCD. Basicly they must buffer up enough input frames that the processor can modify each output frame before display.

3) CRT monitors are simple analog monitors that most often do not contain video processor engines. Instead they have simple resolution scalers, basic brightness/contrast/color adjustments, and not much else. CRT monitors do not need deinterlacers because CRTs can display interlaced signals.

Bottom Line: There is lag in many modern displays, as a result of the advanced image processing options they have. If you object to the lag, choose either one of the rapidly disappearing analog CRT HDTVs, or a simple computer monitor which has no internal video processor.

I've also noticed the choppiness of video on my Sony A3000 SXRD RPTV. The A3000 offers a mode where it inserts dark frames in-between the video frames. It has 2 levels of dark frame insertion. In general, it really helps out with the choppiness.

Film projectors also have dark frames inserted at 2x or even 3x the frame frequency (24fps). If the film flickered at 24Hz, you would definitely notice the flicker. But at 48Hz or 72Hz, it isn't nearly as noticable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movie_projector#Shutter

PENDRAG0ON, I'm looking for a wiki or other article that explains your post. I know that projectors DO flicker the film. But I'd like to know more about WHY. Got a link? Edit: Oh hell, I see you did post a link.

I don't think that LCDs are actually capable of dark frame insertion. I don't think their response time isn't fast enough to switch to black between frames.

I may try turning on the dark frame insertion of my SXRD more often to see if it makes a difference, and to see if I can stand the flicker.

Seems the answer to these lag problems is simply for the display manufacturer to allow all of this processing to be bypassed. In the audio world, many equipment makers have provided such "direct input" feature on their receivers and preamp/processors for years. You'd think the display manufacturers would have figured this out for video by now; it's not like the population of people playing games on their LCDs/plasmas is small.

That seems obvious but nobody seems to be doing so. The 120Hz Samsung displays like my LN-T4669FX have a "Game" mode, but we have discovered that you cannot disengage the video processor, even by engaging that option. I don't particularly care, except that sometimes when you stop/start the program, the audio and video are not synchronized, the video lags. This happens on my TiVo HD once in a blue moon, and it happens on my Toshiba HD-DVD on conventional SD DVDs when scratches or fingerprints are on the disk. However I found that in both cases you can start/stop playback again, and regain A/V sync. Therefore those are source errors, not display errors due to the internal video processor.

You would be strobing the backlight, not trying to do it via pixel activity.

Yes they are and it is called BFI (black frame insertion). This is where the refresh rate is increased to allow for the incorporation of black frames into the signal. Backlight strobbing is not the same thing.


This is a good point and luminence errors will occur if the response of the crystals is too slow. BFI will have luminence bleed into the dark frames due to slow fall times. Strobbing the backlight will not have this problem. However, strobbing requires perfect timing or a ghost image will appear.