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DTS Master Audio...Uncompressed PCM...and a Whole Bunch of Headaches...

post #1 of 189
Thread Starter 
I am currently running a Panasonic DMP-BD10A Blu ray player to an Onkyo TX-SR605 receiver, using ONLY an HDMI connection....this connection is as follows:

The player's HDMI OUT is going to the receiver's HDMI INPUT 1
The receiver's HDMI OUT is feeding, from a second HDMI cable, my Sony SXRD TV's HDMI IN, for video transfer...

This player, which I unfortunately discovered after I purchased it due to highly unknowledgeable sales staff and conflicting online advice, DOES NOT pass any of the high resolution audio codecs via bitstream to the Onkyo (which is precisely what I bought this receiver for, as it decodes these formats onboard) nor does it even SUPPORT DTS Master Audio. I have been having some issues with this hookup since the day it was installed (by me and with assistance by a recommended installer in my area) which involve these issues:

First of all, is the gear HOOKED UP correctly? That is, ONE HDMI cable OUT from the player to the RECEIVER'S HDMI IN, and then an HDMI OUT from the receiver to the TV, to get high definition PICTURE and SOUND? If it is, let me explain what I have been getting in terms of performance because I don't believe I am experiencing the optimum results from the setup...

IN THE BLU RAY PLAYER, under "DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT" in the SETUP menu, there are selections for changing ALL THE AUDIO CODECS this machine supports to either PCM or BITSTREAM....that is, Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS, and DTS HD...now, regardless of the fact that I was told by a member of another board that these settings have NO affect on HDMI audio output and they're JUST for controlling the audio which comes from the digital COAXIAL and OPTICAL outs (which turned out to be, I suppose, not accurate because changing the high resolution settings here DID in fact affect the HDMI audio on my system), I still set the "legacy" Dolby Digital and DTS outputs to BITSTREAM, because those seem to have no problem passing to the 605 over HDMI to be decoded by the 605; this was confirmed by the receiver's display, of course, registering "DOLBY D" on the main screen with the little orange Dolby Digital light illuminating above that and the HDMI logo appearing as well. The problem comes into play with the new high resolution codecs...these soundtracks (Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD) cannot be passed from this machine via bitstream to be decoded and so I have been keeping the Plus, TrueHD and DTS HD settings on PCM, so the PLAYER decodes these tracks and sends them to the receiver via PCM -- but there have been some issues here.

First of all, when I play these "UNCOMPRESSED 5.1 PCM" tracks off certain Blu ray discs, the player and receiver do the HDMI handshake and then the receiver's display reads "MULTICH" on the main screen with "MULTICHANNEL/HDMI/PCM" illuminated in small lettering above that message....is this correct when playing uncompressed tracks? Is this what should be illuminating on the Onkyo's display when playing these tracks? I have been getting countless, conflicting advice on whether or not the receiver's DIRECT or MULTICHANNEL mode should be used when playing these tracks....some say use DIRECT, but then some say by doing that all bass management and processing done by the receiver goes out the window. My receiver AUTOMATICALLY defaults to MULTICHANNEL mode when playing these uncompressed tracks; but the thing is, these tracks don't sound all that great to me....or at least not as good as the anticipation seemed to make it -- all these uncompressed audio mixes sound, on MY system, very front-heavy without a great deal of surround activity and there is a definite, distinct lack of bass compared to Dolby and DTS tracks from standard DVDs. Now I have been told that this is because PCM audio seems to have a 10dB low bass reduction as compared to bitstream signals, and that this has been a problem since the first models of Super Audio CD players; is this true? At any rate, PCM audio tracks are passing this way to my receiver: the HDMI handshake ensues, and then the receiver reads "MULTICHANNEL" on the display....I need to make sure this is correct. There seems to be NO OTHER listening mode on my Onkyo to select from when playing PCM tracks -- cycling through the listening modes only allows for DIRECT or MULTICHANNEL, or "LAST VALID" I believe...so is MULTICHANNEL the way to go?

Now, I had thought MULTICHANNEL mode on a receiver was to control incoming audio from the ANALOG inputs; so, if I am running an HDMI cable from player to receiver, which is DIGITAL, why is a MULTICHANNEL mode being used? And, here is another issue I have been having with this....the manual states that by selecting "PCM" for these high resolution sound codecs, the player is downmixing the track to a two-channel PCM signal, and sending that to a receiver....so, is a two channel PCM mix REALLY the high resolution signal being seen at the receiver? Some say only bitstreaming to a receiver is the way to really get the impact of these tracks, and that something "happens" with a conversion to PCM -- but is this so? I have to say, when switching between PCM and Bitstream for Master Audio tracks (I'll get to this in a minute), I can hear a distinct difference between the two....BITSTREAM sounds HEAVIER, with more bass in the mix, and the PCM just sounds "thinner"; now, I have been told that my receiver is adding bass management more correctly than the player is, and that it's just better to do it at the receiver -- BUT, being that this player DOES NOT send ANY of these new soundtracks through bitstream, what is happening when I keep the SETTING on bitstream is that the receiver "sees" a "core" Dolby Digital or DTS mix from the TrueHD or Master Audio stream, and THAT'S what is displayed on the receiver's front panel...so, is keeping these settings on PCM the right way to get the "lossless" audio out to the receiver?

Now, with regard to DTS MASTER AUDIO....this has given me a headache from day one....I have a few Fox titles on Blu ray in my collection that sport these tracks, as you all well know, and this is what has been happening: for some reason, the Panasonic's "DTS HD" AUDIO OUTPUT settings seem to be affecting the DTS MASTER AUDIO tracks -- I suppose this is because DTS HD is the closest codec to Master Audio that this player can "support"...and so when I keep DTS HD on PCM, and play a Master Audio track, the receiver sees that MULTICHANNEL signal....if I keep DTS HD on BITSTREAM and play the same track, the receiver displays a "DTS" signal....I had assumed that this meant the player was extracting the "core" DTS mix from the Master Audio stream and playing that....but my question is this: if this player does not support DTS Master Audio, then what kind of signal is it feeding the receiver when playing these tracks? Like I said, keeping the setting on BITSTREAM seems to send an improved sound to my speakers and ears as opposed to PCM -- but for these Master Audio tracks, what should this be set to? The player DOES NOT support Master Audio, so first of all, is it correct that the player's DTS HD setting is the CORRECT one for playing Master Audio tracks, and second, what exactly am I hearing by keeping the DTS HD setting on BITSTREAM when playing these tracks -- am I still getting the core extracted DTS mix from the disc? So, either way, PCM or bitstream, Master Audio is being sent as a "decored" DTS track? Do I have this right?

Something else that has been bothering me....when I play ANY Blu ray disc and press the remote's onscreen display button for information, the audio tracks always come up as MULTICHANNEL....in other words, when playing an uncompressed PCM track, it reads "LPCM MULTI 48K..." and if I play a TrueHD soundtrack it will say "Dolby (symbol) TrueHD MULTI..." and if I play a Master Audio track, it will say "DTS HD MULTI...." Why is this happening? When I play a regular DVD, this onscreen message will read "Dolby Digital 3/2.1 CH" or "DTS 3.2.1".....but this does not happen when playing the high resolution formats....it ALWAYS reads "MULTICHANNEL" after the soundtrack name....is this because the player cannot send these tracks bitstream, and indicating that a PCM mix is being sent? But why then does it do this when I select BITSTREAM OUT for DTS HD and play Master Audio tracks? Shouldnt it then read "DTS HD 3/2.1 CH"? What is actually happening when I am sending DTS Master Audio tracks over HDMI to my receiver, but the player is not supporting DTS Master Audio and yet sending some kind of "DTS core" track instead? Do some kind of special HDMI cables need to be used for these high resolution codecs and video? Does it need a certain speed rating or is this just nonsense to make more money from companies like Monster?

Being that I am running everything via HDMI through my receiver, could the receiver be degrading the picture quality in any way? The manual for the Onkyo TX-SR605 claims 1080p video should pass right through the HDMI ports in and out to a display with no conversions; my Sony TV confirms that the screen IS seeing a 1080p signal when I press the DISPLAY button on the TV's remote, but upconverted DVDs at 1080p are RIDDLED with vertical jaggies especially through words and text on the screen -- such as when opening credits are being displayed and such. I am also getting bad pixelation and macroblocking on regular DVDs from this player, especially during dark sequences in films. Is the receiver doing this somehow, or is the video processor in the Blu ray player just not up to the task of upconverting? Is it my screen? Should 1080p signals from the player pass completely untouched by the receiver, even though it's running in a loop through the Onkyo? Is it my HDMI cables? The one that connects my player and receiver is a Monster; the one going to the TV is a thick, black HEAVILY shielded one I purchased onsite from my installer.

There are a MILLION different variables I still need to discuss with regards to these problems, but that's all I can think of for now...if anyone could please help me with some or any of these issues, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you in advance.
post #2 of 189
Excellent Advice. In Addishins The Hdmis Is Digital Which Is Heaps Better Dan Analog. Like Such, As In South Africa And Iraq, Everywhere Like Such As, And I Believe That They Should... Our Education Over Here In The Us, Should Help The Us. Thank You. That's The Help I Can Do For You. Merry Christmas.
post #3 of 189
Welcome to the forum!

Home theater stuff these days is kinda complicated ...huh?

I have an Onkyo pre/pro (885) and neither of my HD players (Sony BDP-S1, Toshiba A-20) support HBR bitstream. I plan on replacing both units next year to players that do.

Currently I have both players set to PCM out (vs. bitstream). My Onkyo displays and is receiving "Mutichannel PCM (5.1)" Which is what I'm sending it. You can then "overlay" various THX processing modes (among others) if you like. Otherwise just keep the Onkyo at "MULTICH." Once you get a bitstream capable player(s) - you will then see "DolbyTrueHD," "Dolby Digital+" and "DTS Master Audio" light up in your display (as the Onkyo will then be doing the processing.) As far as "Direct" goes - I don't use this mode for a variety of reasons (too long to go into). I'll try to come back later today and re-read your post (kinda overwhelming) and possibly answer more questions.
post #4 of 189
Thread Starter 
first of all you need a new blu ray player that BITSTREAM

I know this; as I said in my post, I realized AFTER I had bought the '10A that it did not bitstream the signals...my questions are more about the PCM signals my '10A is sending to my Onkyo TX-SR605....

it i have the panasonic blu ray player to and older amp the onkyo 803. the new panasonic BD30 will BITSTREAM the audio for you. but the panasonic BD10A is old and will not send any BITSTREAM for blu ray disc it will send a bitsream for DVD only.

I know this...the '10A is not really that old, as I bought it only a month or so ago, and even then it was considered just an "upgrade" from Panny's first generation player....I know the '10A only sends bitstream for the legacy codecs like Dolby Digital and DTS. These pass fine over HDMI. What I have been wondering since living with this player is WHY Panasonic chose to have options for the new codecs to bitstream the signals when the player cant even do it! I suppose they knew an upgrade was coming....

about the HDMI PCM MULTICHANNEL HDMI it use pcm to send it to your RECEIVER it dose not mean PCM UNCOMPRESSED

Okay....now I am concerned as this conflicts a bit with everything else I have been told....I understand that HDMI is passing the PCM signals from the player to receiver, but are you saying that I am NOT hearing the uncompressed PCM audio when I select these tracks off Blu ray discs with my current setup? When I select an uncompressed PCM track from a disc, my player and receiver do the handshake and then the front of my Onkyo reads "MULTICH" in the main part of the display, with "HDMI/PCM/MULTICHANNEL" illuminated in small letters above it....this is not correct to hear the uncompressed tracks?

WHAT YOU NEED A NEW BLU RAY PLAYER TO GET THE FULL DTS-HD-MASTER AUDIO FOR NOW YOU WILL BE GETTING TO CORE AT 1.5MBPS IF YOU GET THE NEW BD30 YOU WILL BE GETTING THE FULL DTS-HD SOUND.

I understand the new players may be able to output DTS Master Audio in bitstream for a receiver like my TX-SR605, but my question in the original post was regarding what I am hearing RIGHT NOW on my current system when playing Master Audio tracks...if I keep my player on BITSTREAM output for DTS HD audio, and play a Master Audio track from a Fox title, my receiver reads "DTS" on the display....does this mean I am hearing a BITSTREAMED CORE DTS mix extracted from the Master Audio stream being that this player cannot support Master Audio?

Can someone help with this?

THATS ALL THE HELP I CAN DO FOR YOU

Ummmmm....okay....anyone else with any insight here?
post #5 of 189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADBNZ View Post

Excellent Advice. In Addishins The Hdmis Is Digital Which Is Heaps Better Dan Analog. Like Such, As In South Africa And Iraq, Everywhere Like Such As, And I Believe That They Should... Our Education Over Here In The Us, Should Help The Us. Thank You. That's The Help I Can Do For You. Merry Christmas.

Can someone translate this above reply to me??
post #6 of 189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Ballentine View Post

Welcome to the forum!

Thanks so much for the welcome, John! Hope to get some answers to the issues I have been having with all this mess....

Quote:


Home theater stuff these days is kinda complicated ...huh?

Indeed....

Quote:


I have an Onkyo pre/pro (885)

Wow...I didnt even know Onkyo made a pre pro...I knew they made two channel power amps...

Quote:


and neither of my HD players (Sony BDP-S1, Toshiba A-20) support HBR bitstream. I plan on replacing both units next year to players that do.

Indeed....I plan on replacing my Panny soon too if I can get absolute confirmation that the next generation of players can pass EVERY CODEC INCLUDING DTS MASTER AUDIO via bitstream....because of misinformed and unhelpful sales staff in the stores I was shopping, I purchased this player thinking I could bitstream the audio to my Onkyo. What's weird is that the Panasonic, under DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT setup, has selections for bitstream for the new codecs, including Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD...there ARE selections for bitstream there, yet the machine wont pass them....why???

Currently I have both players set to PCM out (vs. bitstream). My Onkyo displays and is receiving "Mutichannel PCM (5.1)" Which is what I'm sending it.

Okay -- so can you confirm that my receiver IS displaying the correct mode when I play these tracks as PCM? My 605's display reads "MULTICH" and then "PCM/HDMI/MULTICHANNEL" in small letters above that when I play uncompressed PCM or Dolby TrueHD PCM tracks....this is correct?

You can then "overlay" various THX processing modes (among others) if you like. Otherwise just keep the Onkyo at "MULTICH."

On my Onkyo, when playing these PCM tracks, I cannot select any other listening mode other than MULTICHANNEL or DIRECT; it wont let me cycle through the DSP modes like Pro Logic II Movie, etc....

Once you get a bitstream capable player(s) - you will then see "DolbyTrueHD," "Dolby Digital+" and "DTS Master Audio" light up in your display (as the Onkyo will then be doing the processing.)

Indeed, this is what I am waiting for.....I wanted the Onkyo to do all processing, but found out after I bought the player that the bitstream signals wont pass...will I hear a true, real difference when these new codecs are sent BITSTREAM from a new player to my Onkyo compared to if they go PCM? To be honest, I dont like the way the uncompressed audio sounds; compared to legacy Dolby and DTS, the output is not as forceful or rich...

As far as "Direct" goes - I don't use this mode for a variety of reasons (too long to go into). I'll try to come back later today and re-read your post (kinda overwhelming) and possibly answer more questions.

Sorry for the long post, but there are so many issues I need resolved; I would greatly appreciate if you could address more of them when you have some spare time. Thanks again for your help!


AMPLIFICATION/PROCESSING:
ONKYO TX-SR605
Onboard Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD, DTS HD Master Audio; HDMI 1.3a

SOURCING:
Panasonic DMP-BD10A Blu-ray Disc Player

LOUDSPEAKER SUITE:
Mains: polkaudio R20
Center: polkaudio CSi30
Surrounds: polkaudio R15
Sub: polkaudio PSW10


DISPLAY:
SONY 50" SXRD Rear Projection

INTERCONNECTS & SPEAKER CABLE BY MONSTER

POWER PROTECTION BY APC SURGEARREST
post #7 of 189
If you choose "uncompressed PCM" in the disc audio options, and send PCM to your receiver, YES, you will be hearing the uncompressed audio track. (make sure that options such as "dynamic compression" and "downsampling" are turned off in your player and receiver option menus).

If you select a DTS-HD/MA audio track and are not set up to decode it, YES, you will be hearing the core DTS 1.5 mbps track that is extracted from the master track.

These comments assume that you have not selected any unanticipated menu options that would conflict with proper operation of these systems.

I hope this helps.

Lee
post #8 of 189
Thread Starter 
Lee,

Thanks so much for your assistance; let me address your suggestions:


If you choose "uncompressed PCM" in the disc audio options, and send PCM to your receiver, YES, you will be hearing the uncompressed audio track. (make sure that options such as "dynamic compression" and "downsampling" are turned off in your player and receiver option menus).

Indeed, I have PCM DOWNSAMPLING turned OFF on the Blu ray player, as well as DYNAMIC RANGE COMPRESSION...so, these uncompressed PCM tracks will pass automatically to the receiver once selected from the disc's menu, correct? Why do these tracks sound so much "lower" in volume output when compared, directly, to a Dolby track on the same given disc? Case in point: I ran Pirates: Dead Man's Chest Blu ray the other night and switched between the disc's uncompressed PCM and Dolby Digital mixes through the disc's pop up menu option....the Dolby mix, which appeared on my receiver as "DOLBY D", was much louder and "punchier" than the uncompressed track -- I thought the OPPOSITE would happen....

If you select a DTS-HD/MA audio track and are not set up to decode it, YES, you will be hearing the core DTS 1.5 mbps track that is extracted from the master track.

....but does this matter if I have the PLAYER'S DTS-HD audio output set to BITSTREAM OR PCM? See, my player does not SUPPORT Master Audio -- it wont even DECODE IT INTERNALLY, so what the manual says it does is it uses standard DTS Digital Surround as an alternative in these cases....so, when I select a Master Audio track off a Fox disc and I keep the player's DTS HD output on BITSTREAM, my receiver reads "DTS"....does this indicate its simply sending the CORE DTS mix bitstreamed to my receiver? Does DTS HD NEED to be on PCM for audio output when playing Master Audio tracks, or can bitstream suffice?

And then why does the onscreen status menu of my Panasonic, when I press the DISPLAY button, indicate "DTS HD MULTI" on the screen for audio track when playing Master Audio tracks? Is this because the machine can only support regular DTS and DTS HD, not Master Audio, so it reads the "closest" sound it can and displays it as DTS HD?

These comments assume that you have not selected any unanticipated menu options that would conflict with proper operation of these systems.

I simply select the track I want to hear from the menu, keep subtitles off, and thats it....I press "RESUME PLAY" or "PLAY FILM" whatever the disc says.....

I hope this helps.

Hopefully; thank you for your assistance....if you could continue to advise, when you can, I would appreciate it.

AMPLIFICATION/PROCESSING:
ONKYO TX-SR605
Onboard Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD, DTS HD Master Audio; HDMI 1.3a

SOURCING:
Panasonic DMP-BD10A Blu-ray Disc Player

LOUDSPEAKER SUITE:
Mains: polkaudio R20
Center: polkaudio CSi30
Surrounds: polkaudio R15
Sub: polkaudio PSW10


DISPLAY:
SONY 50" SXRD Rear Projection

INTERCONNECTS & SPEAKER CABLE BY MONSTER

POWER PROTECTION BY APC SURGEARREST
post #9 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu Camry SE View Post

Why do these tracks sound so much "lower" in volume output when compared, directly, to a Dolby track on the same given disc? Case in point: I ran Pirates: Dead Man's Chest Blu ray the other night and switched between the disc's uncompressed PCM and Dolby Digital mixes through the disc's pop up menu option....the Dolby mix, which appeared on my receiver as "DOLBY D", was much louder and "punchier" than the uncompressed track -- I thought the OPPOSITE would happen....

Probably because the PCM track is encoded a few DB's lower. Turn up the volume and the PCM track will sound way better.

Quote:


And then why does the onscreen status menu of my Panasonic, when I press the DISPLAY button, indicate "DTS HD MULTI" on the screen for audio track when playing Master Audio tracks? Is this because the machine can only support regular DTS and DTS HD, not Master Audio, so it reads the "closest" sound it can and displays it as DTS HD?

DTS Multi is just the core 5.1 compressed track of the DTS HD MA track. You are hearing the lossy track. If you want to hear the lossless version then you will need a player that will output the DTS HD MA track as bitstream.
post #10 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu Camry SE View Post

I am currently running a Panasonic DMP-BD10A Blu ray player to an Onkyo TX-SR605 receiver, using ONLY an HDMI connection....this connection is as follows:

The player's HDMI OUT is going to the receiver's HDMI INPUT 1
The receiver's HDMI OUT is feeding, from a second HDMI cable, my Sony SXRD TV's HDMI IN, for video transfer...

This player, which I unfortunately discovered after I purchased it due to highly unknowledgeable sales staff and conflicting online advice, DOES NOT pass any of the high resolution audio codecs via bitstream to the Onkyo (which is precisely what I bought this receiver for, as it decodes these formats onboard) nor does it even SUPPORT DTS Master Audio. I have been having some issues with this hookup since the day it was installed (by me and with assistance by a recommended installer in my area) which involve these issues:

First of all, is the gear HOOKED UP correctly? That is, ONE HDMI cable OUT from the player to the RECEIVER'S HDMI IN, and then an HDMI OUT from the receiver to the TV, to get high definition PICTURE and SOUND? If it is, let me explain what I have been getting in terms of performance because I don't believe I am experiencing the optimum results from the setup...

IN THE BLU RAY PLAYER, under "DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT" in the SETUP menu, there are selections for changing ALL THE AUDIO CODECS this machine supports to either PCM or BITSTREAM....that is, Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS, and DTS HD...now, regardless of the fact that I was told by a member of another board that these settings have NO affect on HDMI audio output and they're JUST for controlling the audio which comes from the digital COAXIAL and OPTICAL outs (which turned out to be, I suppose, not accurate because changing the high resolution settings here DID in fact affect the HDMI audio on my system), I still set the "legacy" Dolby Digital and DTS outputs to BITSTREAM, because those seem to have no problem passing to the 605 over HDMI to be decoded by the 605; this was confirmed by the receiver's display, of course, registering "DOLBY D" on the main screen with the little orange Dolby Digital light illuminating above that and the HDMI logo appearing as well. The problem comes into play with the new high resolution codecs...these soundtracks (Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD) cannot be passed from this machine via bitstream to be decoded and so I have been keeping the Plus, TrueHD and DTS HD settings on PCM, so the PLAYER decodes these tracks and sends them to the receiver via PCM -- but there have been some issues here.

First of all, when I play these "UNCOMPRESSED 5.1 PCM" tracks off certain Blu ray discs, the player and receiver do the HDMI handshake and then the receiver's display reads "MULTICH" on the main screen with "MULTICHANNEL/HDMI/PCM" illuminated in small lettering above that message....is this correct when playing uncompressed tracks? Is this what should be illuminating on the Onkyo's display when playing these tracks? I have been getting countless, conflicting advice on whether or not the receiver's DIRECT or MULTICHANNEL mode should be used when playing these tracks....some say use DIRECT, but then some say by doing that all bass management and processing done by the receiver goes out the window. My receiver AUTOMATICALLY defaults to MULTICHANNEL mode when playing these uncompressed tracks; but the thing is, these tracks don't sound all that great to me....or at least not as good as the anticipation seemed to make it -- all these uncompressed audio mixes sound, on MY system, very front-heavy without a great deal of surround activity and there is a definite, distinct lack of bass compared to Dolby and DTS tracks from standard DVDs. Now I have been told that this is because PCM audio seems to have a 10dB low bass reduction as compared to bitstream signals, and that this has been a problem since the first models of Super Audio CD players; is this true? At any rate, PCM audio tracks are passing this way to my receiver: the HDMI handshake ensues, and then the receiver reads "MULTICHANNEL" on the display....I need to make sure this is correct. There seems to be NO OTHER listening mode on my Onkyo to select from when playing PCM tracks -- cycling through the listening modes only allows for DIRECT or MULTICHANNEL, or "LAST VALID" I believe...so is MULTICHANNEL the way to go?

Now, I had thought MULTICHANNEL mode on a receiver was to control incoming audio from the ANALOG inputs; so, if I am running an HDMI cable from player to receiver, which is DIGITAL, why is a MULTICHANNEL mode being used? And, here is another issue I have been having with this....the manual states that by selecting "PCM" for these high resolution sound codecs, the player is downmixing the track to a two-channel PCM signal, and sending that to a receiver....so, is a two channel PCM mix REALLY the high resolution signal being seen at the receiver? Some say only bitstreaming to a receiver is the way to really get the impact of these tracks, and that something "happens" with a conversion to PCM -- but is this so? I have to say, when switching between PCM and Bitstream for Master Audio tracks (I'll get to this in a minute), I can hear a distinct difference between the two....BITSTREAM sounds HEAVIER, with more bass in the mix, and the PCM just sounds "thinner"; now, I have been told that my receiver is adding bass management more correctly than the player is, and that it's just better to do it at the receiver -- BUT, being that this player DOES NOT send ANY of these new soundtracks through bitstream, what is happening when I keep the SETTING on bitstream is that the receiver "sees" a "core" Dolby Digital or DTS mix from the TrueHD or Master Audio stream, and THAT'S what is displayed on the receiver's front panel...so, is keeping these settings on PCM the right way to get the "lossless" audio out to the receiver?

Now, with regard to DTS MASTER AUDIO....this has given me a headache from day one....I have a few Fox titles on Blu ray in my collection that sport these tracks, as you all well know, and this is what has been happening: for some reason, the Panasonic's "DTS HD" AUDIO OUTPUT settings seem to be affecting the DTS MASTER AUDIO tracks -- I suppose this is because DTS HD is the closest codec to Master Audio that this player can "support"...and so when I keep DTS HD on PCM, and play a Master Audio track, the receiver sees that MULTICHANNEL signal....if I keep DTS HD on BITSTREAM and play the same track, the receiver displays a "DTS" signal....I had assumed that this meant the player was extracting the "core" DTS mix from the Master Audio stream and playing that....but my question is this: if this player does not support DTS Master Audio, then what kind of signal is it feeding the receiver when playing these tracks? Like I said, keeping the setting on BITSTREAM seems to send an improved sound to my speakers and ears as opposed to PCM -- but for these Master Audio tracks, what should this be set to? The player DOES NOT support Master Audio, so first of all, is it correct that the player's DTS HD setting is the CORRECT one for playing Master Audio tracks, and second, what exactly am I hearing by keeping the DTS HD setting on BITSTREAM when playing these tracks -- am I still getting the core extracted DTS mix from the disc? So, either way, PCM or bitstream, Master Audio is being sent as a "decored" DTS track? Do I have this right?

Something else that has been bothering me....when I play ANY Blu ray disc and press the remote's onscreen display button for information, the audio tracks always come up as MULTICHANNEL....in other words, when playing an uncompressed PCM track, it reads "LPCM MULTI 48K..." and if I play a TrueHD soundtrack it will say "Dolby (symbol) TrueHD MULTI..." and if I play a Master Audio track, it will say "DTS HD MULTI...." Why is this happening? When I play a regular DVD, this onscreen message will read "Dolby Digital 3/2.1 CH" or "DTS 3.2.1".....but this does not happen when playing the high resolution formats....it ALWAYS reads "MULTICHANNEL" after the soundtrack name....is this because the player cannot send these tracks bitstream, and indicating that a PCM mix is being sent? But why then does it do this when I select BITSTREAM OUT for DTS HD and play Master Audio tracks? Shouldnt it then read "DTS HD 3/2.1 CH"? What is actually happening when I am sending DTS Master Audio tracks over HDMI to my receiver, but the player is not supporting DTS Master Audio and yet sending some kind of "DTS core" track instead? Do some kind of special HDMI cables need to be used for these high resolution codecs and video? Does it need a certain speed rating or is this just nonsense to make more money from companies like Monster?

Being that I am running everything via HDMI through my receiver, could the receiver be degrading the picture quality in any way? The manual for the Onkyo TX-SR605 claims 1080p video should pass right through the HDMI ports in and out to a display with no conversions; my Sony TV confirms that the screen IS seeing a 1080p signal when I press the DISPLAY button on the TV's remote, but upconverted DVDs at 1080p are RIDDLED with vertical jaggies especially through words and text on the screen -- such as when opening credits are being displayed and such. I am also getting bad pixelation and macroblocking on regular DVDs from this player, especially during dark sequences in films. Is the receiver doing this somehow, or is the video processor in the Blu ray player just not up to the task of upconverting? Is it my screen? Should 1080p signals from the player pass completely untouched by the receiver, even though it's running in a loop through the Onkyo? Is it my HDMI cables? The one that connects my player and receiver is a Monster; the one going to the TV is a thick, black HEAVILY shielded one I purchased onsite from my installer.

There are a MILLION different variables I still need to discuss with regards to these problems, but that's all I can think of for now...if anyone could please help me with some or any of these issues, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you in advance.


Good grief and Gordon Bennett this post has given me a headache just reading it. Now tell the truth now, you didn't read the owners manual, go on you can tell us, you didn't read it.
post #11 of 189
There is no "rule" for the loudness of different audio options on a disc. The tracks may not be encoded at the same volume level. What matters is how they sound in comparison once you have equalized the sound level with your receiver's volume control. Once you have set the level to match the other audio track, compare the sound quality and evaluate them from there. Don't worry about small/moderate differences in the position of your receiver's volume control. What matters is that the same section of dialog, etc. on a disc is played back at the same volume. Then comparisons are more valid.

If your player won't support DTS-HD/MA, then (if it was me) I'd set the player to output PCM. That way, you can be sure that the DTS-HD full signal is being sent as PCM to the DACs in your receiver, assuring you of getting the higher bit rate audio.

If your player is showing DTS-HD multichannel playing when outputting PCM, and the receiver is only displaying DTS when receiving bitstream:

1. Your player is not capable of bitstreaming DTS-HD to the receiver,even though it will internally decode it and send the appropriate PCM to the receiver.

OR

2. Your receiver is not distinguishing the "HD" DTS signal from standard DTS, or its display merely doesn't state DTS-HD when it is playing. I don't know how to advise you to examine this situation to be sure.... You might call Onkyo tech support and ask some detailed questions.

Overall, I believe this confusion about audio settings/codecs will be greatly simplified as the technology matures a bit. At some point, it'd be a good idea to sit back and just enjoy great movies with great sound and not worry too much about the tech side. I know, I've been a sicko audiophile for 30 years and there were times when I couldn't just sit and enjoy an entire LP/CD without wanting to adjust something..... it'll drive you insane unless you remember why you're doing all this. You want to enjoy the art form and immerse yourself in the experience, not worry about wires, etc.

Have a great holiday, and don't let the tech stuff hamper your enjoyment!

Lee
post #12 of 189
Small volume differences have long been a "trick" in audio showrooms to make certain speakers sound "better" than others. A difference of a couple dB, although not tremendously apparent, make the louder speaker sound more dynamic and full.

Be sure to compare apples to apples.

Lee
post #13 of 189
Thread Starter 
Probably because the PCM track is encoded a few DB's lower. Turn up the volume and the PCM track will sound way better.

Indeed, this MUST be what is happening; switching between the Dolby 5.1 track on Dead Man's Chest and its uncompressed mix, on the fly, I can CLEARLY hear a jump in audio output and raw VOLUME...it's like a whole blanket has been lifted off the mix when switching to Dolby, which doesnt seem to make sense, as I thought UNCOMPRESSED was supposed to deliver this effect....when you say "the PCM track will sound way better," what do you mean exactly -- better than the Dolby track? I also perceive a decrease in bass -- a BIG decrease -- when running PCM audio tracks to this Onkyo compared to a bitstreamed signal; the bitstreamed signals immediately bring up the LFE punch and presence where the PCM tracks seem to appear thin and...well....kind of "hollow"....it was suggested to me in a different area that it may be perhaps I like the sound of the lossy codecs better....could this be? Could it be I just dont "dig" or "get" the lossless/uncompressed audio? Are the Dolby Digital tracks recorded on Blu rays encoded at a higher rate than on regular DVD? Can that be why they sound better to me?

DTS Multi is just the core 5.1 compressed track of the DTS HD MA track. You are hearing the lossy track. If you want to hear the lossless version then you will need a player that will output the DTS HD MA track as bitstream.

I understand Im not hearing the true Master Audio lossless version because of the bitstreaming; but this player doesnt even SUPPORT DTS Master Audio, and the manual says "DTS Digital Surround will be used as an alternative...." The player DOES however support DTS HD, but when I am playing these Master Audio tracks off the Fox titles, the player displays "DTS HD MULTI" on the onscreen message for audio, and my receiver reads "DTS" if I feed the DTS HD BITSTREAMED from the player.....so, what I am asking is this: BECAUSE THIS PANASONIC PLAYER DOES NOT SUPPORT MASTER AUDIO AT ALL, CAN I KEEP THE "DTS HD" AUDIO OUTPUT OF THE PLAYER ON BITSTREAM TO SEND TO MY ONKYO, BEING THAT THE CORE DTS MIX IS BEING EXTRACTED ANYWAY? Does it HAVE to be on PCM from the player? I only ask because the bitstream setting sounds better to me...
post #14 of 189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBLsound4645 View Post

Good grief and Gordon Bennett this post has given me a headache just reading it. Now tell the truth now, you didn't read the owners manual, go on you can tell us, you didn't read it.


Indeed.....how can you tell?

Honestly and all kidding aside, I did actually read these manuals to death, and Im still confused....tweaking every day, too....
post #15 of 189
Thread Starter 
There is no "rule" for the loudness of different audio options on a disc. The tracks may not be encoded at the same volume level. What matters is how they sound in comparison once you have equalized the sound level with your receiver's volume control. Once you have set the level to match the other audio track, compare the sound quality and evaluate them from there. Don't worry about small/moderate differences in the position of your receiver's volume control. What matters is that the same section of dialog, etc. on a disc is played back at the same volume. Then comparisons are more valid.

Lee,

Thanks again for all your ongoing help....the thing is, when I did these A/B tests, I kept the volume at the exact same level and just switched the audio tracks between Dolby and uncompressed, back and forth....as soon as I switched to the Dolby mix, the whole track opened up and felt much more heavy, full and rich; its hard to explain beyond that....the PCM track lacked bass and "fullness"....I was under the assumption that the exact opposite would happen with uncompressed tracks...that as soon as you compared it directly to a lossy codec, the difference would be like a blanket was being pulled off the Dolby track....and yet, the opposite seems to be happening to my ears....

If your player won't support DTS-HD/MA, then (if it was me) I'd set the player to output PCM. That way, you can be sure that the DTS-HD full signal is being sent as PCM to the DACs in your receiver, assuring you of getting the higher bit rate audio.

The player DOES support DTS HD, but NOT DTS Master Audio....when I keep the player's DTS HD AUDIO OUTPUT in the player to BITSTREAM, it sounds warmer, richer, etc....the same thing Im experiencing with the uncompressed tracks...perhaps something my Onkyo is doing to PCM streams compared to the received bitstreamed signals?

Let me ask you this: If this machine wont support Master Audio AT ALL, and the manual is stating that standard legacy DTS is being used as an alternative when these tracks are detected, then does it really matter what I keep the DTS HD audio output on, bitstream or PCM? Either way, shouldnt the EXTRACTED DTS CORE MIX be sent to the receiver, bitstreamed or PCMed?

[b]If your player is showing DTS-HD multichannel playing when outputting PCM, and the receiver is only displaying DTS when receiving bitstream:

Yes, when playing DTS MASTER AUDIO tracks on Blu ray discs, the PLAYER'S ONSCREEN DISPLAY, when I press the button to confirm soundtrack, reads: "DTS-HD MULTI"....but EVERY high resolution codec this machine plays reads MULTI after it, too, so I dont know what that means....in other words, if I play a TrueHD track, the display will read "Dolby TrueHD Multi"...if I play an uncompressed track, the display will read "LPCM MULTI 48K"....BUT, when I play regular Dolby Digital and DTS tracks, the display reads "Dolby Digital 3/2.1ch" or "DTS 3/2.1ch"....what is going on here?

And yes, if I set the "DTS HD" audio output on the player to BITSTREAM and play a Master Audio track, my receiver sees the HDMI handshake and the display reads "DTS," as if a regular DTS track is being played....but what am I HEARING by doing it this way? Is the receiver GETTING the BITSTREAMED DTS CORE MIX?

1. Your player is not capable of bitstreaming DTS-HD to the receiver,even though it will internally decode it and send the appropriate PCM to the receiver.

The manual says this player WILL support DTS HD, but NONE of these new codecs this machine supports can be sent BITSTREAM from this player....NONE of them....ONLY Dolby Digital and DTS can be sent bitstream....so, once again, this is where we stand:

-I set the Panasonic's "DTS HD" AUDIO OUTPUT in the SETUP menu to "BITSTREAM" and play a Master Audio track....the receiver reads "DTS" and I assume Im getting the CORE DTS mix from that Master Audio mix sent to the receiver bitstreamed, which sounds fine to my ears....

-I set the Panasonic's "DTS HD" AUDIO OUTPUT in the SETUP menu to "PCM" and play a Master Audio track....the receiver reads "MULTICH" (like it does with uncompressed tracks) with "HDMI/MULTICHANNEL/PCM" illuminated above it in small letters....

OR

2. Your receiver is not distinguishing the "HD" DTS signal from standard DTS, or its display merely doesn't state DTS-HD when it is playing. I don't know how to advise you to examine this situation to be sure.... You might call Onkyo tech support and ask some detailed questions.



Well, I know WHY the Onkyo is not indicating DTS-HD or MASTER AUDIO....that is because the unit is not receiving these signals via BITSTREAM from the Blu ray player....THATS why theyre not lighting up on the receiver....Im just curious as to whats going on with the Master Audio tracks when I send them PCM or BITSTREAM, being that this player doesnt support the format...

Have a great holiday, and don't let the tech stuff hamper your enjoyment!

Lee


Thanks a million, Lee; have a great holiday as well...

PS Were you a member of Home Theater Discussion?
post #16 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu Camry SE View Post

...the thing is, when I did these A/B tests, I kept the volume at the exact same level...

that's where you are missing lee's point... you "need" to change the volume to "level match" between the two soundtracks... one may be mastered "hotter", thus being "louder", which humans perceive as "better"...
post #17 of 189
Quote:


Lee,

Thanks again for all your ongoing help....the thing is, when I did these A/B tests, I kept the volume at the exact same level and just switched the audio tracks between Dolby and uncompressed, back and forth....as soon as I switched to the Dolby mix, the whole track opened up and felt much more heavy, full and rich; its hard to explain beyond that....the PCM track lacked bass and "fullness"....I was under the assumption that the exact opposite would happen with uncompressed tracks...that as soon as you compared it directly to a lossy codec, the difference would be like a blanket was being pulled off the Dolby track....and yet, the opposite seems to be happening to my ears....

The reason why you think the PCM track lacks bass and "fullness" compared to Dolby Digital is because there is no LFE channel in lossless PCM. Dolby Digital sends the LFE (low frequency effects) channel to the .1 speaker or subwoofer in a 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 system. There is no LFE channel in uncompressed PCM. All of the low frequency information is sent to all of the speakers. If you have small front and/or small surround speakers that can't reproduce much bass, then you are not hearing all there is to hear. However, the frequencies you are hearing with PCM are lossless and will have more detail and transparency than DD. To what extent depends on the quality of your audio system. In order to get the most out of uncompressed PCM, you need either all full range speakers or equipment to handle the bass management. In my system bass management is handled by an Outlaw ICBM. The ICBM was originally designed for SACD enthusiasts because SACD players had no bass management to speak of. However, it works the same way for the uncompressed PCM.
post #18 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by quad user View Post

The reason why you think the PCM track lacks bass and "fullness" compared to Dolby Digital is because there is no LFE channel in lossless PCM. Dolby Digital sends the LFE (low frequency effects) channel to the .1 speaker or subwoofer in a 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 system. There is no LFE channel in uncompressed PCM.

Eh? Pirates of the Caribbean have 5.1 PCM track, that seems to suggest that there is a discrete LFE track, otherwise they are lying ( .1 means that there is an actual separate PCM track for LFE, not that there is general LFE presence in the track).
post #19 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by keije View Post

Eh? Pirates of the Caribbean have 5.1 PCM track, that seems to suggest that there is a discrete LFE track, otherwise they are lying ( .1 means that there is an actual separate PCM track for LFE, not that there is general LFE presence in the track).

I think you are correct that some PCM tracks have a .1 channel. However these are rarely handled with correct bass management in the player or receiver. In the case of my receiver, the analog channels are absolutely untouched. The .1 or LFE channel needs a boost from +10 db to +15 db depending on the equipment in order to to get proper bass levels.
post #20 of 189
Set the PS3 to output LPCM over HDMI.
Make sure you have dynamic range compression off on the PS3 as well. (hit triangle during playback and go to "a/v settings", make sure it also states LPCM in that menu as well)

With the PS3 set to LPCM, you will always get the best sound available except for DTS-HD MA.
On dvds you'll still get Dolby Digital, and you'll still get DTS. No need to change it back to bitstream.

I have the same setup, PS3, 605, and SXRD set.
post #21 of 189
Would it help to increase bass when going the PCM route to set my center and fronts to large as their frequency response goes down to 38Hz.
post #22 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJTEX View Post

Would it help to increase bass when going the PCM route to set my center and fronts to large as their frequency response goes down to 38Hz.


I would say yes, but it depends on the capabilities of your equipment. In most players and receivers the option to set speaker sizes only affects Dolby Digital, DTS or their lossless versions. Speaker size cannot be selected for analog inputs.
post #23 of 189
Thank you quad user, so for anybody connecting a blue-ray to an older receiver the analog way would still be better than using an optical cable?
post #24 of 189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

that's where you are missing lee's point... you "need" to change the volume to "level match" between the two soundtracks... one may be mastered "hotter", thus being "louder", which humans perceive as "better"...

I had, from the very beginning, thought that "uncompressed" meant the tracks WERE to be hotter than compressed Dolby Digital streams; but, I have been informed by others that this assumption was wrong.

At any rate, I don't like the fact that if I am running a PCM track and suddenly switch over to Dolby 5.1, the audio suddenly jumps tremendously louder; of course, this is not how one would sit and watch a film seriously, switching between audio tracks, but now it's already in my head that the Dolby Digital track plays hotter than the PCM....

Can someone confirm if Dolby Digital mixes on these Blu-ray discs are encoded at a higher bitrate than on regular DVD, and that could be why they sound better?
post #25 of 189
Thread Starter 
The reason why you think the PCM track lacks bass and "fullness" compared to Dolby Digital is because there is no LFE channel in lossless PCM.

Okay, Quad, now THIS comment above concerns me very much....I know the member after your post commented about this, so I'll respond with my own thoughts now as well....your theory above I NEVER heard before, and would absolutely explain why I have been experiencing the uncompressed tracks the way I do....are you telling me (and us) that there is NO bass signal from ANY PCM audio track?? Does this ONLY apply to UNCOMPRESSED PCM, or is it also from PCM-encoded codecs like DOLBY TRUEHD? I experience little bass with both of these formats when I play them PCM'ed....WHY then do the Blu-ray packages say that the uncompressed tracks ARE in 5.1? The .1 DOES NOT send LFE to the sub in these tracks?

Can someone confirm if this is indeed so?

Dolby Digital sends the LFE (low frequency effects) channel to the .1 speaker or subwoofer in a 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 system. There is no LFE channel in uncompressed PCM.

Yes, I realize how the LFE signal is sent in a bitstreamed Dolby Digital mix; but are you CERTAIN there is no LFE channel in uncompressed PCM? The Blu-ray boxes claim it's 5.1....this is the first Im ever hearing of this....in fact, I have had countless discussions on other sites with people who claim their uncompressed PCM tracks give their systems wall-rattling bass and the like; is there confirmation that there is NO LFE channel in PCM?

All of the low frequency information is sent to all of the speakers. If you have small front and/or small surround speakers that can't reproduce much bass, then you are not hearing all there is to hear.

Indeed, I have Polk medium-sized/large bookshelves for the mains....I didn't know I was going to need floor standing, full sized towers to enjoy uncompressed PCM audio....I was never told this when I was shopping for this stuff....

However, the frequencies you are hearing with PCM are lossless and will have more detail and transparency than DD. To what extent depends on the quality of your audio system. In order to get the most out of uncompressed PCM, you need either all full range speakers or equipment to handle the bass management. In my system bass management is handled by an Outlaw ICBM. The ICBM was originally designed for SACD enthusiasts because SACD players had no bass management to speak of. However, it works the same way for the uncompressed PCM.

This concerns me....I had assumed that all I needed was an HDMI receiver by which uncompressed PCM could travel over the HDMI to the receiver, where I would experience the full effect of the lossless audio...now you're telling me different kinds of better equipment is necessary....

Can someone please confirm this?
post #26 of 189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by keije View Post

Eh? Pirates of the Caribbean have 5.1 PCM track, that seems to suggest that there is a discrete LFE track, otherwise they are lying ( .1 means that there is an actual separate PCM track for LFE, not that there is general LFE presence in the track).

Right -- EXACTLY what I would have thought....I'm really confused now...

Every single title I own with an uncompressed mix has the ".1" designation....Spider Man 3....Clockwork Orange....
post #27 of 189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by quad user View Post

I think you are correct that some PCM tracks have a .1 channel. However these are rarely handled with correct bass management in the player or receiver. In the case of my receiver, the analog channels are absolutely untouched. The .1 or LFE channel needs a boost from +10 db to +15 db depending on the equipment in order to to get proper bass levels.

Okay....now THIS makes more sense and is closer to what I have been told...I have heard that sending PCM audio over analog or HDMI, or whatever, results in a 10dB drop in bass, and this problem has been happening since the very first models of SACD players began rolling out...so, I would bet that these Blu-ray's Uncompressed 5.1 tracks DO have a LFE channel, but the PCM/MULTICHANNEL action of our receivers is somehow dropping this bass channel way down to the point it sounds weak....BITSTREAMING always seems to deliver wallops of bass on Dolby and DTS soundtracks...
post #28 of 189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallow View Post

Set the PS3 to output LPCM over HDMI.
Make sure you have dynamic range compression off on the PS3 as well. (hit triangle during playback and go to "a/v settings", make sure it also states LPCM in that menu as well)

With the PS3 set to LPCM, you will always get the best sound available except for DTS-HD MA.
On dvds you'll still get Dolby Digital, and you'll still get DTS. No need to change it back to bitstream.

I have the same setup, PS3, 605, and SXRD set.

Dallow,

I don't HAVE a PS3....I have a Panasonic '10A....
post #29 of 189
I don't have your player - but I do have a PS3 and a BDP1400 and run my audio via hdmi to an onkyo875. I've never had a problem with bass management with these players. You have to remember compressed means just that, compressed! So when you hear a compressed vs an uncompressed track of course the compressed one is going to sound louder. A compressed tracks dynamics are much more narrow. The quiets are not as quiet and the louds are not as loud(in most cases), and the overall effect makes everything sound a bit louder when playing at reference levels.

Seeing MULTICH is fine. I think you need to have at least the 805 model to be able to apply PLiiX or Ultra2cinema modes. You might have more luck figuring out your bass management issues in your receivers owners thread also.
post #30 of 189
Thread Starter 
I don't have your player - but I do have a PS3 and a BDP1400 and run my audio via hdmi to an onkyo875. I've never had a problem with bass management with these players.

Hello and thank you for your assistance; let me ask you this, based on your setup information above: are you running the connection (HDMI) like I am? That is, HDMI OUT from the Blu-ray (or your PS3) player to HDMI IN of your Onkyo, and then HDMI OUT of your Onkyo to the HDMI IN of your TV? This is how I have it set up for audio and video transfer?

I must seem to be having some kind of bass management problem with my '605, but like Quad had said earlier, perhaps PCM TRACKS HAVE NO LFE INFORMATION TO BE PASSED, or perhaps THE BASS INFORMATION SIGNAL IS BEING SENT AT WAY TOO LOW A dB LEVEL when the PCM tracks are passed...I don't know what is going on here, but I get no to little LFE when playing PCM tracks....if I switch to a bitstreamed Dolby/DTS signal, the wallops of bass return and the whole track opens up....

CAN SOMEONE CONFIRM WHAT WAS SAID BEFORE, THAT PCM/UNCOMPRESSED AUDIO DOES NOT TRANSFER WITH AN LFE SIGNAL EVEN IF A BLU-RAY TITLE CLAIMS IT'S "5.1" UNCOMPRESSED?

You have to remember compressed means just that, compressed! So when you hear a compressed vs an uncompressed track of course the compressed one is going to sound louder.

But see, in MY eyes, and from what I had IMAGINED and ASSUMED was that COMPRESSED audio were the tracks that were SUPPOSED to sound LOWER and well....COMPRESSED! When magazines first reported about this technology and the new audio formats, they exclaimed "UNCOMPRESSED AUDIO!" as if to say things were going to open up and get much punchier and guttsier than Dolby Digital ever did....so, when you say "of course the uncompressed one is going to sound louder," to me, it was the opposite way of thinking: I had thought COMPRESSED DOLBY DIGITAL AUDIO was going to sound "hushed" and "lower/compressed" compared to UNCOMPRESSED, OPENED UP PCM....

A compressed tracks dynamics are much more narrow. The quiets are not as quiet and the louds are not as loud(in most cases), and the overall effect makes everything sound a bit louder when playing at reference levels.

See, this is where I probably went wrong, not understanding the differences between the formats....I think I actually PREFER the sound of the LOSSY mixes better.....can you believe that???

Seeing MULTICH is fine. I think you need to have at least the 805 model to be able to apply PLiiX or Ultra2cinema modes. You might have more luck figuring out your bass management issues in your receivers owners thread also.

I will indeed see if I can get a response in the RECEIVERS area; thank you. So, IF my Onkyo displays a MULTICH message on the front screen when watching uncompressed PCM tracks, that is correct?

I guess the bottom line boils down to this:

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE CONFIRM IF THESE UNCOMPRESSED PCM TRACKS ARE ACTUALLY CONTAINING AN LFE SIGNAL IN THEM? Is this why there is little to no bass when PCM tracks pass through my receiver?
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