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Does Microsoft actually want people to go back to XP? SP1 RC makes Vista even slower. - Page 2

post #31 of 89
12/27/07 at 5:52pm
Thread Starter 
LOL, I have to admit, I love threads like this... people voicing their opinions; and, very passionately. This thread kept me entertained all day at work

I dont think people realize how funny they sound with comments like the below quote; and... things similar to "Ive been doing IT for over 20 years", "I've rolled out 1000 windows ME workstations", "Im responsible for 100 Win2k3 servers".

Even though Microsoft somehow managed to slowdown network file transfer performance and disk reads and writes with SP1 RC1, I'm still going to stick with it... But, the thought of switching back to XP has crossed my mind (and just updating the GUI to look like Vista).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ginnal View Post

Vista is a Turd, I have it running on TWO PC's and yes it's a turd.

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post #32 of 89
12/27/07 at 6:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazyn00b View Post

It's Microsoft's fault for changing things that didn't need to be changed.

With that kind of attitude, why not just go back to using analog TV and VHS tapes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazyn00b View Post

AND the GPU vendors' fault for fixing gamer problems while ignoring HTPC issues.

Intel seems to have managed to do well with Vista; custom resolutions are possible although they do require a 3rd-party tool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazyn00b View Post

Cable Card support isn't better than anything if you can't afford to buy a whole new PC.

Wah wah wah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazyn00b View Post

And there is no excuse whatsoever for lack of clear QAM support.

Besdies the whole part about clear QAM being a mess, with no consistent channel number assignments and the providers often ripping out the virtual channel number? And no guide data whatsoever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazyn00b View Post

Yeah... AVSForum. Microsoft guys were bragging about it over a year ago. But if you need a link to an official quote: http://msmvps.com/blogs/chrisl/archi.../19/86944.aspx

Once again, can you cite a source? Something other than a forum or blog post please - like a press release or magazine article?
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post #33 of 89
12/27/07 at 6:11pm
Some of the posts in this thread are pretty funny. The vendors didn't make the drivers in time for the Vista release and people that tried to upgrade were stuck with no drivers.

Also, it's the idea when new software comes out such as an OS, it's a sign of the times to get new hardware. That's the part that most people have a hard time understanding.

Oh well, to each their own. People can stick with a primitive OS and be on their own. The masses will buy new computers and learn a new the new technology.
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post #34 of 89
12/27/07 at 6:12pm
Can anyone that loves Vista and uses it daily give me an explanation how the appearing/disappearing 'Map network drive' menu item can be called an improvement over XP? This single item alone has caused people to switch back to XP.

I develop device drivers for XP, Vista, OS X, etc. but still use XP on my development box and use Vista through VM. Forget about doing network backups on Vista.
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post #35 of 89
12/27/07 at 6:12pm
I have XP and Vista on this machine (e6400 w/ 2gbytes), and see no difference in performance. Vista just has lots of little improvements, is slightly more stable, and tears less. Have also used it on a bottom end current laptop (2gbyte with 1.8ghz x2), and it was perfectly responsive there too.

As for the network thing, I don't know why this doesn't affect me. A mac powerbook can transfer files at approx 50Mbytes/sec from my Vista machine, and it would surely go faster if that laptop had heftier hardware.
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post #36 of 89
12/27/07 at 6:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dj9 View Post

Once again, can you cite a source? Something other than a forum or blog post please - like a press release or magazine article?

I tend to think of blogs as the new generations magazines, they both can get the information from the same sources. The main difference is that one of them is a failing business model (print magazines), while the other is just starting to thrive.

That quote was from the Corporate VP of the Windows Digital Media Division (now Consumer Media Technology Group who owns HD DVD at Microsoft).

I guess I'm a bit bias though.

Chris
(the one from that blog)
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post #37 of 89
12/27/07 at 6:15pm
I don't have any problems with Vista other than the network problems and the EPG data, although, both are big problems for me. To use the Battlestar Galactica term, the network issue is fracked! I can't watch anything (DVD, Blu-ray, HD DVD, dvr-ms files) over my network without getting frequent stuttering/freezing. Want the correct EPG data for sub-channels? Bah! The sub-channel EPG data hack described on thegreenbutton.com doesn't work for everyone - it depends upon who your local cable operator is and how they handle the data.

I finally ceded to the fate of using MS's tech support since it's free still for me, and after spending roughly 15 painful hrs (I kid you not) of troubleshooting my two problems with level II's, I just gave up. I'm just living with the current shortcomings and hoping MS patches the problems.
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post #38 of 89
12/27/07 at 6:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKO View Post

Can anyone that loves Vista and uses it daily give me an explanation how the appearing/disappearing 'Map network drive' menu item can be called an improvement over XP? This single item alone has caused people to switch back to XP.

I develop device drivers for XP, Vista, OS X, etc. but still use XP on my development box and use Vista through VM. Forget about doing network backups on Vista.

I've never noticed this, but I don't actually ever have any drives mapped, I just use their UNC names. Ie \\\\SERVER\\RecordedTV\\.

If a program doesn't support that, and there's only a few I've had this issue with, I make a symbolic link. For example:

If I open up the command prompt at C:\\, and then do the following:

mklink /D RecordedTV \\\\SERVER\\RecordedTV

it'll then make a directory C:\
ecordedtv that shows the contents of that server folder.
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post #39 of 89
12/27/07 at 6:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyB View Post

Also, it's the idea when new software comes out such as an OS, it's a sign of the times to get new hardware. That's the part that most people have a hard time understanding.

In my experience, two- and three-year-old hardware works fine with Vista. To illustrate, I sold a senior citizen his first PC (a used circa-2005 3200+ with a fresh install of Vista x64) and he loves it.
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post #40 of 89
12/27/07 at 6:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post

If I open up the command prompt at C:\\, and then do the following:

mklink /D RecordedTV \\\\SERVER\\RecordedTV

it'll then make a directory C:\
ecordedtv that shows the contents of that server folder.

Yep. Symbolic links are very nice but are probably beyond the average user for now.

With Vista, I think Microsoft got caught looking over their shoulder too much and placed too much emphasis on the UI upgrade. Once the noted anomalies are corrected I'll probably switch.
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post #41 of 89
12/27/07 at 6:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dj9 View Post

With that kind of attitude, why not just go back to using analog TV and VHS tapes?

Just because I expect new software versions to offer tangible improvements over the old does not make me a Luddite. Other than a slightly improved GUI, I have yet to see ANY improvement over MCE 2005 (which I loved immediately when it came out).


Quote:
Originally Posted by dj9 View Post

Intel seems to have managed to do well with Vista; custom resolutions are possible although they do require a 3rd-party tool.

While Intel has certainly improved their graphics chipsets in recent years, you are not seriously suggesting we throw out $200 video cards just to run Vista at native resolution, are you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dj9 View Post

Wah wah wah.

LOL, is this the best argument you can come with?


Quote:
Originally Posted by dj9 View Post

Besdies the whole part about clear QAM being a mess, with no consistent channel number assignments and the providers often ripping out the virtual channel number? And no guide data whatsoever?

Solving problems like this is what software from big companies like Microsoft is for. If Microsoft really wanted to solve this problem they could, although it might involve greasing a few palms for guide data. Heck, they could at least do a hack like the HDHomerun and put a pretty GUI on top of it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dj9 View Post

Once again, can you cite a source? Something other than a forum or blog post please - like a press release or magazine article?

Man, if Chris Lanier's blog isn't a good enough a source for you, I must ask: do you even care (or know anything) about HTPC at all?
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post #42 of 89
12/27/07 at 7:08pm
Vista completely sucks - there is no redeeming quality it has. The past 2 times I've tried to give it a chance it has failed at even the most basic of tasks.

1. Installed it on my Macbook Pro - install went fine drivers were all included on the Leopard CD. Upon initial boot up I went and clicked on the start 'circle' and opened IE. My cpu temps hovered in 80s and the fan went crazy - the thing got extremely hot and loud - Before this I had never heard the fan - in fact I didn't even know a fan existed in the MBP - XP and OS X never did this to my notebook. My battery life went from 3+ hours in XP/OSX to 1:10 under Vista. For a modern OS, this thing completely sucks for notebooks. Vista was immediately deleted and XP installed for my windows app needs.

2. Installed it on my media server -- Installed fine and had it up and running - I thought great I have it working now I can really experience Vista. I trusted it enough to leave it on overnight downloading some things. Woke up in the morning to check on it and it had crashed! Apparently it's virtual memory file had grown to take over the full space on the hard drive (36gb raptor). What os is dumb enough to let its swap file grow as large as the disk itself?? Vista was subsequently deleted.

Vista is not even close to ready for primetime. I'd rather have XP and OSX any day. Vista was an exercise in torture - I can tolerate XP when I have to, but Vista is just crap. I can't believe they released it in this state - they should've spent another 5 years on development before releasing it.
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post #43 of 89
12/27/07 at 7:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkanet View Post

I agree. Except, in my case, I had to disable superfetch only because it didn't work correctly with my DVR software, SageTV. During recordings, superfetch would bring my system to it's knees. Disabling it fixed the incompatibility immediately. I actually used Vista's very nice resource monitor tool to find out what was causing the excessive disk usage.

Interesting... Did you test with SP1?
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post #44 of 89
12/27/07 at 7:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazyn00b View Post

Just because I expect new software versions to offer tangible improvements over the old does not make me a Luddite. Other than a slightly improved GUI, I have yet to see ANY improvement over MCE 2005 (which I loved immediately when it came out).

The improvement of MCML over hosted HTML isn't enough for you?
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post #45 of 89
12/27/07 at 7:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickVik View Post

Vista completely sucks - there is no redeeming quality it has. The past 2 times I've tried to give it a chance it has failed at even the most basic of tasks.

1. Installed it on my Macbook Pro - install went fine drivers were all included on the Leopard CD. Upon initial boot up I went and clicked on the start 'circle' and opened IE. My cpu temps hovered in 80s and the fan went crazy - the thing got extremely hot and loud - Before this I had never heard the fan - in fact I didn't even know a fan existed in the MBP - XP and OS X never did this to my notebook. My battery life went from 3+ hours in XP/OSX to 1:10 under Vista. For a modern OS, this thing completely sucks for notebooks. Vista was immediately deleted and XP installed for my windows app needs.

2. Installed it on my media server -- Installed fine and had it up and running - I thought great I have it working now I can really experience Vista. I trusted it enough to leave it on overnight downloading some things. Woke up in the morning to check on it and it had crashed! Apparently it's virtual memory file had grown to take over the full space on the hard drive (36gb raptor). What os is dumb enough to let its swap file grow as large as the disk itself?? Vista was subsequently deleted.

Vista is not even close to ready for primetime. I'd rather have XP and OSX any day. Vista was an exercise in torture - I can tolerate XP when I have to, but Vista is just crap. I can't believe they released it in this state - they should've spent another 5 years on development before releasing it.

Did you try adjusting the power management settings? Maybe for some reason it was defaulted to high performance instead of balanced, or better battery? I don't have a laptop, so not quite sure on that one.
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post #46 of 89
12/27/07 at 7:13pm
Thread Starter 
No. I'm waiting for SP1 final to be released.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic View Post

Interesting... Did you test with SP1?
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post #47 of 89
12/27/07 at 7:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazyn00b View Post

It's Microsoft's fault for changing things that didn't need to be changed. AND the GPU vendors' fault for fixing gamer problems while ignoring HTPC issues.

The previous architecture for the display (and audio) driver was limited in scalability and ability to add next generation features. While we could continue to push the performance envelope through brute force strategies, this ultimately results in diminishing returns. As with any new technology, the first few months/years are painful as both the providers and consumers understand and try to take advantage of the technology. You probably won't see immediate gratification (especially in the HTPC-only space) in the short term. Overtime and as 3rd party manufactures take advantage of the technology, you should start seeing the benefits. Off-hand I can think of the improvements in graphics processing parallelism and protected video path. Regardless of your feelings about DRM, protected video path makes it easier to sell high definition video distribution on windows to the content owners.



Quote:
Originally Posted by lazyn00b View Post

It is a weird problem, for sure. I have a suspicion that the Slideshow is using 3d acceleration to render the photos, thus making the app a million times more complex than it needs to be.

Are you using Photo Gallery or Vista Media Center for slideshow? Is the application crashing or is the entire system crashing (i.e. bugcheck and restart)?

I prefer the advanced rendering possibilities with the new foundation. Transitions and overlays can be more professional (alpha blending and such) and unique. The fit and finish/eye candy is nicer on Vista than on XP.
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post #48 of 89
12/27/07 at 7:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisL01 View Post

Now, if you are talking about network transfers and hard drive writes then you are right. That's a stupid bug that they must get fixed.

I'm running Vista SP1 and my network transfers dumped to the local HD are faster than ever.



Granted, my Vista machine does have a pair of 150 raptors in a RAID0, but I certainly don't see how things can get much better than being able to saturate a GigE link when copying from one machine to another.
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post #49 of 89
12/27/07 at 8:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickVik View Post

Vista completely sucks - there is no redeeming quality it has. The past 2 times I've tried to give it a chance it has failed at even the most basic of tasks.

1. Installed it on my Macbook Pro - install went fine drivers were all included on the Leopard CD. Upon initial boot up I went and clicked on the start 'circle' and opened IE. My cpu temps hovered in 80s and the fan went crazy - the thing got extremely hot and loud - Before this I had never heard the fan - in fact I didn't even know a fan existed in the MBP - XP and OS X never did this to my notebook. My battery life went from 3+ hours in XP/OSX to 1:10 under Vista. For a modern OS, this thing completely sucks for notebooks. Vista was immediately deleted and XP installed for my windows app needs.

2. Installed it on my media server -- Installed fine and had it up and running - I thought great I have it working now I can really experience Vista. I trusted it enough to leave it on overnight downloading some things. Woke up in the morning to check on it and it had crashed! Apparently it's virtual memory file had grown to take over the full space on the hard drive (36gb raptor). What os is dumb enough to let its swap file grow as large as the disk itself?? Vista was subsequently deleted.

Vista is not even close to ready for primetime. I'd rather have XP and OSX any day. Vista was an exercise in torture - I can tolerate XP when I have to, but Vista is just crap. I can't believe they released it in this state - they should've spent another 5 years on development before releasing it.


Without any hard data, I can't technically comment on either one of these things. I agree that both of these experiences are frustrating, but I can't tell where the problem is. XP is a more mature platform and its API tolerance is lower than Vista's. Application and driver vendors are more familiar with it and thus the ecosystem can appear to be more stable (dependent on what you are using). With Vista, many questionable actions are no longer tolerated. Until application vendors adapt to the new laws, some frustration will result (as is the case with any new technology).

Statistically speaking for #2 - With the limited description above, it sounds like an application/driver memory leak problem. Typically consuming all virtual memory (especially overnight) occurs because of bad applications.

One of the best benefits and alternatively one of the greatest sources of problems is Windows breadth of usage and usability. Since so many people use it, many companies target application for this platform. This attracts more people. This large installation base attracts Jimmy's Chicken Shack to quickly write buggy applications and drivers.

Please note that Jimmy makes a mighty fine chicken product. I just end up spending most of my time working with Jimmy rather than fixing our own bugs.
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post #50 of 89
12/27/07 at 8:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post

The improvement of MCML over hosted HTML isn't enough for you?

The improvements in the foundation should become more apparent when applications really start taking advantage of the new interface. My Movies 3 migration to MCML should be a good example.
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post #51 of 89
12/27/07 at 8:20pm
It all comes down to this.

If you like Vista, use it.

I wasted more time troubleshooting the TCP/IP problem to last me a lifetime.

I wanted to like Vista, I really did, it has some really nice eye candy, and some of the new features I really enjoyed, but I have a business to run, and I run it with Server 2003 and XP Pro CLients. Because they work, I have used XP long enough to know what to look for. I dont want to learn this all over again with Vista, and darnit I shouldnt have to beta test thier software for them.

As far as my clients going to Vista, it aint gonna happen any time soon.

I still have customers happily running 2000 Pro and XP, and they will continue to do so until Vista has a stable track record.

Just my opinion guys, your mileage may vary.

I love Vista for home users, its the Fisher Price operating system and for home users its great!
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post #52 of 89
12/27/07 at 8:20pm
I couldn't imagine going back to XP after using Vista. Vista does everything better for me except webcam support on x64. It took me a long time to find a camera that worked properly.
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post #53 of 89
12/27/07 at 8:48pm
i bought vista ultimate ($50 from a friend at MS) because i like to learn every little bit of an OS and since it was the new thing i hoped on it. and iv found that vista x64 is about the best OS iv ever used (barring only dos 6.11 o dos how i miss thee) have run into very few problems as a whole, when i do run into em i search the net for anything that may help and have yet to find one that cant be fixed with a little work.

btw if apple would let us i would install a copy of OSX in a heartbeat (no i dont feel like hacking it)
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post #54 of 89
12/27/07 at 8:59pm
Let me start out by saying that I don't have nearly the computer expertise of you guys posting on here. As a novice user I waited to purchase a new laptop until Vista came out and I now think that was a mistake. It takes forever to startup and I have gone into msconfig and taken out all unnecessary items. Networking is very difficult. I have 2 Vista and 4 XP machines and the XP's can't find the ones on the network even though the Vista's will find the XP's. I have been very frustrated using Vista over the last several months.
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post #55 of 89
12/27/07 at 9:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pclausen View Post

I'm running Vista SP1 and my network transfers dumped to the local HD are faster than ever.

Granted, my Vista machine does have a pair of 150 raptors in a RAID0, but I certainly don't see how things can get much better than being able to saturate a GigE link when copying from one machine to another.

My experience has shown Vista's task manager network utilization graph is not even remotely accurate. Transfer a file between a Vista and XP machine and watch the Windows task manager network utilization on the XP machine compared to the Vista one. In my tests with Windows task manager and Procurve Manager, Vista overstates network throughput by around 20-30%. My server with XP Pro x64 only shows ~60% gigabit utilization in both Windows task mgr and Procurve Manager, but the Vista HTPC reading/writing to it is showing 99% in task mgr. Go figure.

And why is it that MS still can't figure out how to correctly identify the time remaining for a file transfer? Mind-boggling.
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post #56 of 89
12/27/07 at 9:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic View Post

Off-hand I can think of the improvements in graphics processing parallelism and protected video path. Regardless of your feelings about DRM, protected video path makes it easier to sell high definition video distribution on windows to the content owners.

What good is the protected video path if Microsoft doesn't trust it enough to release their own HD DVD playback capability that they worked so hard on? I can't believe that technical issues were to blame for Microsoft backing away from HD DVD, since they invented core technologies like VC-1 and HDi, and they have already turned the Xbox 360 into a great HD DVD player. It seems a lot more likely that they have fobbed off legal responsibility for keeping content secure on to 3rd parties like Cyberlink and Intervideo simply because they're scared the PVP will be hacked. Off course this is speculation on my part - if you know otherwise, please tell us what really happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic View Post

Are you using Photo Gallery or Vista Media Center for slideshow? Is the application crashing or is the entire system crashing (i.e. bugcheck and restart)?

The problem happens sometimes (but not always) when you hit the Slideshow button from Photo Gallery. Then the screen goes black, and the app just hangs without displaying any photos. I always have to kill the Slideshow from the task manager to get back to the desktop. The problem happens frequently, but is not necessarily repeatable with the same photo. It may very well be that my new video card's drivers are to blame, if indeed hardware acceleration is being used.
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post #57 of 89
12/27/07 at 9:44pm
LOL! I've been following computers since the "Tandy" days and let me tell you, some Americans don't even know where the USA is on a world map, that's your groundswell.

To me, Vista seem like it's built over NT and XP it's just the latest generation. Like I said before, they just added too much memory management so people with systems with low ram don't have to go out and buy it right away. Pretty much, Vista should not run on anything less that 2gigs of ram, pretty standard for most PC's today.

As for UAC and other security stuff, well, that's for the "map" people Most of us that are more advanced clearly see the benefit to the new OS. Those who can't get it to work right probably should try a little harder or maybe give it up all together. Computers since their inception were meant for folks who could at least find things on maps A big downfall to OS performance and security went downhill when "user friendly" was invented, LOL!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazyn00b View Post

Uh, actually, no, it's not.

What's happened is that the media has picked up on the groundswell of derision users have been heaping on Vista.[/b]
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post #58 of 89
12/27/07 at 9:48pm
Blame Hollywood for all the DRM crap. They and their lawsuits is what is preventing the technology from really exploding and becoming affordable for the rest of us.

At the end of the day M$ is just another software company, they are not the only ones, where's the competition? Could it be that only the big cats like M$ can anticipate and sustain a legal onslaught from the cheap basturds that run Hollywood?


Quote:
Originally Posted by lazyn00b View Post

What good is the protected video path if Microsoft doesn't trust it enough to release their own HD DVD playback capability that they worked so hard on?
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post #59 of 89
12/27/07 at 9:54pm
Hey! The hack works VERY DAMN GOOD! Try it; you should at least have 2 gigs of ram however. But anyway, I'm not worried about losing the OS in a power failure. I have ALL of my data on secondary drives and only use the primary partition for the OS and related programs. At any given time I can just reload the OS and start clean, I've done so many times and have learned new tweaks along the way.

But what you're describing sounds like write-back cache issues and power failures. I think the newer SATA drives don't allow this option so keeping the basic kernel in memory isn't going to do any damage and the boot up times and performance boost more than compensates. I'd be surprised if anyone that tries the hack actually reverts back to the old way; I definitely won't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mkanet View Post

Disabling paging executive is about the worst advice you could give to someone. On paper, it sounds really cool. Who wouldn't want everything to run in RAM? That tweak has been around for many years in previous generation Win OS's. But, it reality, all it could take is just one power outage (if you dont have a UPS) or some anomaly where your machine wont shutdown gracefully and has to be forced off, or a bugcheck (Bluescreen)... to corrupt data that's in memory (such as unwritten disk writes). Ironically, I had this setting enabled on my first Vista install about a year ago. My PC had shut off during a power outage. When I turned it back on, my Vista install was kinda of hosed... sort of like someone who just had a stroke. Best advice is to have the hardware to run Vista fast. I also have Superfetch disabled.
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post #60 of 89
12/27/07 at 9:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nesNYC View Post

Blame Hollywood for all the DRM crap. They and their lawsuits is what is preventing the technology from really exploding and becoming affordable for the rest of us.

At the end of the day M$ is just another software company, they are not the only ones, where's the competition? Could it be that only the big cats like M$ can anticipate and sustain a legal onslaught from the cheap basturds that run Hollywood?

See...while this is true for the most part, Hollywood is also running SCARED. You have to understand, Hollywood = old school, they are just not as up to technology as we expect them to be. Apple and iPods were an eye opener to them, where Apple's raking in the cash, and the artists and studios get less than they would if they were able to sell CDs (which is exactly what they thought they will be able to do). The music business in dire jeapordy as of today.

Hollywood has also acknowledged that there ir practically no security system that they can employ that won't be cracked in weeks if not days, since computing power has become so readily and cheaply available. Just look at the revenues of folks like slysoft..

When it comes to the new fangled HD stuff, they are EVEN more scared that they will not be able to sell the discs (which cost pennies to make and sell for atleast a 1000-1500% markup over the manufacturing cost..you do the math), hence all this paronia and push for DRM and cablelabs and what not.
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