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Calibration Experts - Please help! (RGB Full vs Limited on PS3 and Display) - Page 2

post #31 of 49
11/5/08 at 8:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybersoga View Post

Games are rendered natively at PC levels on PS3, Xbox 360 and PC and get converted to whatever the console is outputting. If games are a primary concern then the console is bet set to output RGB at PC Levels.

.

Reality is not so simple. The notion of the actual levels is entirely down to the developers idea of what rendering intent they were using when they created the imagery.
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post #32 of 49
11/5/08 at 1:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post

Reality is not so simple. The notion of the actual levels is entirely down to the developers idea of what rendering intent they were using when they created the imagery.

It shouldn't make any difference whether the developers monitor is fed RGB at PC Levels or YPbPr at video levels, the video processor in the screen will ensure that they look the same.
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post #33 of 49
12/8/08 at 12:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_j_johnson View Post

Yes, I have tried that test.


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XBR4 RGB FULL --> PS3 RGB LIMITED = Crushed black


I am thinking the RGB AUTO setting on the XBR4 is not working...or the PS3 is not truly sending a 0-255 signal in the XMB when setting RGB to FULL on the PS3.

hi,
i am not getting crushed blacks when i tried this settings, the picture becomes super washed out instead, howcome its that way for me
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post #34 of 49
12/10/08 at 12:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

xvYCC and so forth wouldn't necessarily be restricted to RGB or YCbCr. They are just different ways of representing the same signal, in simple terms.

I don't think this is true, xvYCC can only be represented through YCbCr, that is what the YCC stands for, it is a YCbCr color space, actually a "Extended-gamut YCC"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XvYCC

xvYCC would be the 0-255 version of the FULL RGB mode. That i noticed, most plasmas don't accept 0-255 when the signal is RGB (for instance when you set PS3 to RGB full), but if they have a xvYCC mode they accept the full 0-255 from YCbCr modes (Super-White ON using PS3, for instance). This is the case for the Panasonic Display i have tested.

LCDs usually accept the FULL RGB mode when set to do so.
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post #35 of 49
12/19/08 at 11:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighDeath View Post

I don't think this is true, xvYCC can only be represented through YCbCr, that is what the YCC stands for, it is a YCbCr color space, actually a "Extended-gamut YCC"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XvYCC

xvYCC would be the 0-255 version of the FULL RGB mode. That i noticed, most plasmas don't accept 0-255 when the signal is RGB (for instance when you set PS3 to RGB full), but if they have a xvYCC mode they accept the full 0-255 from YCbCr modes (Super-White ON using PS3, for instance). This is the case for the Panasonic Display i have tested.

LCDs usually accept the FULL RGB mode when set to do so.

OK, I've been messing around with trying to calibrate my new Panny 42PZ80U with my Xbox 360. Based on the information in this thread, the Panny calibration thread and the NXE HDMI color space thread I want to bounce some ideas off the experts here.

I've calibrated the set using the AVS HD 709 disk and some THX blue filters. I feel that I see the most detail and have the best color reproduction for both games and videos using the YCbCr 709 setting for HDMI color space output.

The question I have is in regards to the video levels setting. If I set video levels to expanded and HDMI color space to YCbCr 709 will the 360 be sending xvYCC color to my Panny? I have xvYCC color set to auto on the plasma. I guess the question is can the 360 send xvYCC color? Does xvYCC color require an HDMI 1.3 device? I know the spec for xvYCC was incorporated into 1.3 but does this mean a 1.2 device is not capable or simply it's not part of the 1.2 standard? Can anyone determine if the 360 is sending xvYCC color when set to expanded/yCbCr 709? The picture is very close to standard video levels on my display, with deeper blacks, richer color and no apparent loss of detail in dark areas...is this placebo or am I on to something here?
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post #36 of 49
12/26/08 at 9:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by slyderulz View Post

OK, I've been messing around with trying to calibrate my new Panny 42PZ80U with my Xbox 360. Based on the information in this thread, the Panny calibration thread and the NXE HDMI color space thread I want to bounce some ideas off the experts here.

I've calibrated the set using the AVS HD 709 disk and some THX blue filters. I feel that I see the most detail and have the best color reproduction for both games and videos using the YCbCr 709 setting for HDMI color space output.

The question I have is in regards to the video levels setting. If I set video levels to expanded and HDMI color space to YCbCr 709 will the 360 be sending xvYCC color to my Panny? I have xvYCC color set to auto on the plasma. I guess the question is can the 360 send xvYCC color? Does xvYCC color require an HDMI 1.3 device? I know the spec for xvYCC was incorporated into 1.3 but does this mean a 1.2 device is not capable or simply it's not part of the 1.2 standard? Can anyone determine if the 360 is sending xvYCC color when set to expanded/yCbCr 709? The picture is very close to standard video levels on my display, with deeper blacks, richer color and no apparent loss of detail in dark areas...is this placebo or am I on to something here?

I am not sure what the "expanded" on your Xbox means, since i don't have one, i have a PS3. But, i suppose it means 0-255 greyscale range. If that is the case it only means it is sending the FULL RGB range to your TV. The color space is still BT.709. But you shouldn't worry about it, since not a single movie till now has been encoded with the xvYCC color space.

you should also use the DVE HD basics and check if the EXPANDED option lets lets your TV display bellow black info, if it does, then check if the NON EXPANDED option clips all the "bellow black" data. You wil find out if the expanded goes for the 0-255 and if the NON expanded option goes for the 16-235.

Deep Color (10 bit + color depth per channel) requires HDMI 1.3, xvYCC is just a broader color space, a new standard (like the BT.709) that allows the use of the full 0-255 greyscale range. Your TV can actually expand anything it displays to the new xvYCC Color Space, it doesn't mean it will do any good to the image and depending on the options you select (like AUTO COLOR MANAGEMENT), it will drive the picture away from the recommended standard; more saturated colors for instance.

Unless you get a movie that has actually been encoded using the xvColor space you won't really take advantage of its broader range of colors.
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post #37 of 49
1/1/09 at 7:35pm
One thing I noticed is that when I have Limited, I see tiny moving blue dots on the PS3 menus screen. When I switch to Full, they disappear. This is only in the menu screen, however. Once I hit play on a movie (during Limited), the blue dots don't show up during the movie screens.

Anybody else experience this? I have the PS3 thru an AVR to a Samsung 650.
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post #38 of 49
1/21/09 at 10:12am
I had issues with my ps3 to a Sharp DT-510 pj(720p), was getting a pink screen on regular settings.

I had to change PS3 output to RGB Full(I think this was what fixed it) and RGB on the PJ to get it to work. Now everything is working fine(no pink screen) and it seems blacker than it did before under automatic(I had it working with a different Receiver, Onkyo 606, without changing settings).

anyway, is it true that you should only use RGB Full with a Computer screen, ideally?

Eventually I want to get a short throw(11 ft to 100" screen) PJ that is 1080p, but until then I'm stuck with this dilemma apparently. Unless I get a high end Receiver, currently using a Marantz sr4002
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post #39 of 49
1/21/09 at 10:24am
I think, with my Projector anyway, If I use a passive HDMI AVR(Marantz SR4002), I have to do this RGB setting or get a pink screen.

If I get a higher end AVR with Active HDMI circuitry, then I can use other settings and the AVR will correct things. So not forced to use RGB. This is what happend with the onkyo 606, it worked and looked fine though occasionally the image got jerky for a split second.

If I get another receiver, I'd get something higher end like a Denon or Pioneer Elite that handles all the advanced HDMI stuff, to help my 720p Sharp PJ. I'd rather stick with the SR4002 though. the Onkyo 606 had some issues that concerned me, and got too hot for my room, warmed it up a good bit when played.
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post #40 of 49
1/21/09 at 10:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpniner View Post

I had issues with my ps3 to a Sharp DT-510 pj(720p), was getting a pink screen on regular settings.

I had to change PS3 output to RGB Full(I think this was what fixed it) and RGB on the PJ to get it to work. Now everything is working fine(no pink screen) and it seems blacker than it did before under automatic(I had it working with a different Receiver, Onkyo 606, without changing settings).

anyway, is it true that you should only use RGB Full with a Computer screen, ideally?

Eventually I want to get a short throw(11 ft to 100" screen) PJ that is 1080p, but until then I'm stuck with this dilemma apparently. Unless I get a high end Receiver, currently using a Marantz sr4002

RGB limited adheres to the standards for TV.
RGB Full is the standard for PC monitors.

Most TVs can be calibrated for RGB Full.

If you are getting a pink fringe on RGB limited, it sounds like you may have your contrast too high.

Anyway good luck.
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post #41 of 49
1/21/09 at 12:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

RGB limited adheres to the standards for TV.
RGB Full is the standard for PC monitors.

Most TVs can be calibrated for RGB Full.

If you are getting a pink fringe on RGB limited, it sounds like you may have your contrast too high.

Anyway good luck.

Thanks! I will play around with settings some more later.

basically the entire screen was shaded pink for ps3 menu or anything.

So I take it that for a 720p DLP Projector, RGB Limited is probably what I want?
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post #42 of 49
1/21/09 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpniner View Post

Thanks! I will play around with settings some more later.

basically the entire screen was shaded pink for ps3 menu or anything.

So I take it that for a 720p DLP Projector, RGB Limited is probably what I want?

That sounds really really odd that you'd get a light red tint over everything.

Depends on the projector, some projectors are specifically for PC use, but assuming it's not limited is what should be correct.
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post #43 of 49
1/21/09 at 2:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

That sounds really really odd that you'd get a light red tint over everything.

Depends on the projector, some projectors are specifically for PC use, but assuming it's not limited is what should be correct.

well this pj is made for Home Theater use ideally, I'm not 100% what exactly made it work, just that it has something to do with the RGB settings I changed. I'll mess around with what is mentioned and see what happens later, thanks.


also, all connections are HDMI
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post #44 of 49
11/29/09 at 6:18am
what plasma are you using? i have a viera g10. just curious.
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post #45 of 49
12/22/09 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfee View Post

Limited RGB = 16-235 RGB, Video Levels'.
Full RGB = 0-255 RGB, PC Levels'.


Games and the XMB are rendered in RGB. I believe it is natively in the 0-255 PC range. (which you would expect, as it is an nVidia graphics card in there) People have also reported seeing additional posterisation when sending Video Levels as there are less steps of gradation available.

The levels are remapped automatically whether you are in Full or Limited RGB. By that, I mean that whether it is in limited or full RGB, you will always see information below/above 16/235 in the photo viewer etc.

BD/DVD is natively YCC, 16-235. If you set BD/DVD output to YCC rather than RGB or Auto, the Full/Limited RGB setting will have no effect whatsoever.

Super White enables/disables the display of BTB/WTW information with BD/DVD playback in YCC. If you play back BD/DVD in RGB, the PS3 will always clip it.



Many displays do not support Full RGB, or do not work with it correctly when in Auto mode. With some displays (Pioneers for example) forcing them into PC levels will stop them auto-switching into YCC for BD/DVD meaning that you have to either use RGB for everything (prioritising game image quality) or use limited RGB for games and YCC for BD/DVD. (prioritising BD/DVD IQ)


To test whether your display supports Full RGB or properly switches into it automatically, first set the system to Limited RGB.

Now either download this onto your PS3 via the browser, or load it from a memory stick: http://sr-388.net/images/patterns/Brightness.jpg

Adjust the brightness control on your display notch-by-notch until the 1 is just visible a notch lower and it would disappear.

Now, switch your PS3 into Full RGB mode. Is 1,2,3,4 still visible or are you now looking at a black screen?

If 1,2,3,4 is visible, your display properly supports auto-switching into PC levels. If not, see if you have an option in the menus to switch between PC/Video levels. (often labelled something like black level high/low') Switching to PC levels should restore the 1,2,3,4 on your display.

The 1 or possibly even 2 may disappear so you might need to adjust brightness a couple of notches to get it to display properly again.

If it all disappears and you have to make significant changes to brightness (e.g. 10, 15, 20 notches, assuming a scale of 1-100) then it is not working correctly.

If you can't see 1,2,3,4 at all after switching the PS3 into Full RGB and don't have a black level option on your screen, it does not support it and you should set it back to Limited RGB.

Personally, I feel that it is a bit of a misnomer calling it Full or Limited RGB people are more likely to turn it onto Full RGB as they think they'll be getting a better image. It should really just be referred to as PC or Video levels.




Sperron, those results look like your display either renders PC/Video levels drastically differently from each other, which would be quite unexpected or, more likely, it does not support PC levels.

That is what I would expect to see from a display that does not support Full RGB, but doesn't have a hard clip at 16/235 allowing the information to be brought out with large changes in the brightness/contrast controls.

Any chance of re-linking the test patterns - the link is dead and I'd very much like to do this test.

Thanks,
Rob
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post #46 of 49
12/23/09 at 8:52am
So, based on this thread, if my set correctly accepts the 0-255 range for RGB and automatically switches correctly between that and YCBCR, then I should calibrate for RGB Full on my PS3 and have separate calibration settings for the YCBCR signal?

Essentially, if my display accepts and displays it correctly, RGB IS in fact the correct way of doing this?
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post #47 of 49
12/23/09 at 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeonus View Post

So, based on this thread, if my set correctly accepts the 0-255 range for RGB and automatically switches correctly between that and YCBCR, then I should calibrate for RGB Full on my PS3 and have separate calibration settings for the YCBCR signal?

Essentially, if my display accepts and displays it correctly, RGB IS in fact the correct way of doing this?

No you should use RGB limited or YCrCb all the way through.
PS3s are designed for TVs, Tvs are designed for limited range.

The options on the PS3 are there to use it with a computer monitor
The options on the TV are there to use it with a PC.
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post #48 of 49
12/23/09 at 12:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

No you should use RGB limited or YCrCb all the way through.
PS3s are designed for TVs, Tvs are designed for limited range.

The options on the PS3 are there to use it with a computer monitor
The options on the TV are there to use it with a PC.

That's what I have always thought. There are conflicting opinions in this thread, though.

The XMB is supposedly in Full RGB, as are an unknown number of games due to there being no standard they have to adhere to.

Blurays I know don't use Full RGB, and I do indeed send a YCrCb signal for them.

But lets say I set the PS3 and my television to Full RGB for the XMB and games. Those games that are designed in the 16-235 range, what will happen with the video settings being set to the 0-255 range?
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post #49 of 49
12/24/09 at 3:40am
Games are rendered using the full range, and are either output as such if the output is set to full, or are compressed if the output is set to limited. So you will have the same amount of shadow/highlight detail either way, but you might lose some precision with limited.

Blu-ray is stored as limited YCC on the disc with BTB/WTW information. With a PS3, you need to be outputting limited YCbCr and have super white on to see the BTB/WTW information. (of which, only the WTW information should be visible in a calibrated state, though it is not essential)

If you output RGB, either limited or full range, you will not see BTB/WTW. However, something to consider is that, at the end of the chain, the data must end up as RGB information as your display is RGB.

The PS3 can output up to 12-bits per channel over HDMI, so it is presumably using at least 12-bit precision for the YCC → RGB conversion.

How good is your display's processing? Most are advertising it as a selling point if they have 10-bit processing.

The YCC → RGB conversion seems to be the step where posterisation is most likely to occur from what I have seen, based on the fact that MadVR's 16-bit YCC → RGB conversion produces the best Blu-ray image I have seen, even though the final output is only 8-bit, so you want that done with as much precision as possible.

While you do lose WTW information, you may get better image quality with the PS3 outputting RGB. For what it's worth, I have yet to see a commercial Blu-ray title that has WTW information. (though admittedly, I stopped looking for it quite some time ago)
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