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Pioneer Kuros and Samsung LCD-How could this be??

post #1 of 117
Thread Starter 
Hi guys,
I am thinking about buying the Pinoeer Kuros 50 inch. I have a Panny Plasma that I love and am going to move it up to the bedroom. At Best buy they had a Kuros, and yes, the Black levels were really good....but next to it was a Samsung 52 inch LCD that BLEW it away. I am in shock. The Samsung had an INK BLACK like I have never seen on a Flat panel, where I did not know that it was even on. They were both playing the same source. Even the picture on the Samsung BLEW me away, black aside

What's up????
post #2 of 117
Google 'local dimming LED'.
post #3 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by frostylou View Post

Hi guys,
I am thinking about buying the Pinoeer Kuros 50 inch. I have a Panny Plasma that I love and am going to move it up to the bedroom. At Best buy they had a Kuros, and yes, the Black levels were really good....but next to it was a Samsung 52 inch LCD that BLEW it away. I am in shock. The Samsung had an INK BLACK like I have never seen on a Flat panel, where I did not know that it was even on. They were both playing the same source. Even the picture on the Samsung BLEW me away, black aside

What's up????

5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

Any minute now the Kuro hordes are going to rain down upon you
post #4 of 117
I've seen both of these. The Samsung and the Elite Kuro side by side. The Sammy does have great blacks and a very good picture, I believe it's brighter too. The Pioneer is still a bit better to my eye, colors are nicer IMHO. Nicest display I've ever seen in person. I don't own one and probably won't get one, my Panny plasma still wows me and it was cheaper besides, but if I was going to spend that kind of bank I'd get the Pioneer and never look back.

There was a recent comparison of these displays that favored the Kuro. Basically what they said was that they were very close but the Pioneer just had something "extra". I agree with that.
post #5 of 117
From HT magazine:

Quote:


The Pioneer was the winner in both its off-axis and motion performance. Plasmas are, by nature, more like direct view CRTs than any other new display technology (apart perhaps for the stillborn SED) with respect to their off-axis viewing quality and resistance to motion lag. So it was no surprise that the Pioneer was the clear winner in both of these categories, though the differences were much more obvious in the off-axis category.

Quote:


While the Samsung could be set up to be considerably brighter than the Pioneer, the differences were subtle at more realistic levels, such as the settings I used. The only exception, which favored the Samsung, was on scenes demanding high brightness over the entire screen. That is, in general, a strength of LCD and a weakness of plasma, though I never found it to be a serious limitation of the Pioneer.

It was a close run in black level, but ultimately I had to come down on the side of the Pioneer. Despite the fact that the Pioneer never went completely black on fades between scenes, and the Samsung could, the Pioneer worked better for me in some very dark, low contrast program material. Samsung's local dimming can provide little or no benefit for such scenes, since there are seldom any areas that can be selectively lit. This is the only type of material in which the Samsung reverted to that gray haze look. A good example of this is a night scene in a church in Saving Private Ryan. On the Samsung, the image had a rather flat, grayish, subtly washed-out appearance. On the Pioneer, the actor's faces popped just enough, in front of deeply shadowed backgrounds, to give this difficult scene a reasonable sense of depth.

I've seen Samsung properly set-up and it still suffers from motion-blur, seemingly no matter how many gimmicks they put in the set to combat this effect. The blacks might be dark, but the set still cannot muster the detail that plasmas can. When I buy an HDTV, I want to minimize the number of artifical filters, noise enhancers, LED backlighting gimmicks, etc for a more natural looking picture. Samsung seems to want to add as many to this set as they can, and its MSRP of $4500 is very high for a 52" TV. Also it still cannot accept 1080/24 sources, well it can but it converts them to 1080/60 so whats the point?
post #6 of 117
LCD blacks look better in a bright environment, Plasmas wash out when there are high levels of ambient light.

In a dark room, the opposite is true. It shows off how poor the LCD blacks are in comparison with the Plasmas.

Samsung have LED backlit displays that can display "true" blacks even in a dark room. They do this by "cheating" however. Due to how the LEDs work, they can be turned off in different sections of the display, so if anything is showing black, they just turn the backlight off. This means that, with a full black screen, the black levels are perfect. However, with actual pictures, the blacks are no better than a normal LCD.


The Kuros have, by some margin, the best black levels out there for a flat panel. However they're still not that great when compared to a CRT.
post #7 of 117
I've witnessed the exact thing on several occasions and ironically both playing the Kuro Demo Feed the Samsung beat it hands down (71 series) and all I can figure is in-store out of the box and sales associate calibration must be horrible and placement was not in a bright area of BB. My room is too bright for plasma but where these were displayed was a darkened area.
post #8 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by westa6969 View Post

I've witnessed the exact thing on several occasions and ironically both playing the Kuro Demo Feed the Samsung beat it hands down (71 series) and all I can figure is in-store out of the box and sales associate calibration must be horrible and placement was not in a bright area of BB. My room is too bright for plasma but where these were displayed was a darkened area.

There is nothing dark about BB's showroom.....unless the backside of the displays is facing the main showroom.
post #9 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfee View Post

The Kuros have, by some margin, the best black levels out there for a flat panel. However they're still not that great when compared to a CRT.

CRT Fanites love to post this stuff when the facts are there were only a handful of CRT's with those reference blacks - please name them!

I owned one and it was a Sony top of the line but I would not trade one days viewing my 57" Sharp versus that reflective 4:3 puny 36" TV = no wow factor even with it's weaker blacks my Sharp blows away any friggin CRT which is why I donated it to a charity to go 16:9 large LCD and zero reflections and washout and loads of HT immersion a CRT DV dust collector monsters cannot provide.
post #10 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

There is nothing dark about BB's showroom.....unless the backside of the displays is facing the main showroom.

The Magnolia area of our local BB is dark. And the flat panels do not face out into the bright store. It's a pretty good place to compare displays.
post #11 of 117
I don't think the Sammy is even the best LCD. I think the XBR4/5 is a all around a better TV and it's really not that close.
post #12 of 117
I was at BB the other day and was checking out the 5080 and 4280, and the samsung 61, 65, and 71 all had much deeper blacks on the loop they were playing. Maybe the brightess was way jacked up on the pioneer messing up the black level, i dunno it didn't look too bright though. For the samsungs the black level was 61 < 65 < 71 from the loop.

Do the kuros really have deeper blacks than these samsung 61, 65, and 71 series?
post #13 of 117
The Pioneer kuro folks have taken the kool-aid intravenously. They will never accept that anything else has better blacks, and a Sammy , and an LCD at that. Heck, they even have a hard time believing their perfect current generation kuro will be surpassed by pioneers next generation marketing hype.
post #14 of 117
The Samsung 81 LCD can have the best blacks in the business better than Pioneer sometimes. If it was the 71 or 65 series, I'd take a harder look in a more dim room.

Granted... the Sammy 81 is better at contrast than about 99 percent of plasmas and LCDs... I'd say there's no shame in that. Dynamic dimming and all.
post #15 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by discopaul View Post

The Pioneer kuro folks have taken the kool-aid intravenously. They will never accept that anything else has better blacks, and a Sammy , and an LCD at that. Heck, they even have a hard time believing their perfect current generation kuro will be surpassed by pioneers next generation marketing hype.

The 81 series had great blacks... with a price.
post #16 of 117
When I saw the 81 series at Best Buy, without a doubt it had the deepest blacks and most shadow detail of any flat panel set in the store. Nothing came close, but it wasn't side by side next to a Kuros to compare it to. Among the 50 or so flat panels attached to the wall it was immediately obvious there was something different about that set. Within the first minute my sister asked "why is the picture so much better on that set?". When I looked at the specs and saw the rated 500,000:1 contrast ratio I knew the answer why it looked different. Best LCD flat panel picture I've seen to date.
post #17 of 117
As soon as they fix the motion blur problems with LCDs (which is easy to do, but they won't do it) I will look into getting an LCD, until then I will hang onto my panasonic 42 inch plasma as my primary display.
post #18 of 117
Oh man...First off you can't compare TV's in a showroom floor. EVER! 81F does not have the deepest blacks. Read any review that is out there. Pioneer didn't win just about every single award for the hell of it.
post #19 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

As soon as they fix the motion blur problems with LCDs (which is easy to do, but they won't do it) I will look into getting an LCD, until then I will hang onto my panasonic 42 inch plasma as my primary display.

i can't be the only one who's noticed motion blur on a plasma. maybe plasma folks aren't looking hard enough.

camera pans, judder, fuzzy edges during zooms. i see it on a plasma as well as lcd.

as for the 81 next to the kuros i saw in the store. the 81 lcd was definitely darker in the black areas than the kuros. ironically it was the pioneer flower (kuros) demo that was playing. go figure they are both nice sets. know what you like/want and get it.
post #20 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by bosng View Post

i can't be the only one who's noticed motion blur on a plasma. maybe plasma folks aren't looking hard enough.

camera pans, judder, fuzzy edges during zooms. i see it on a plasma as well as lcd.

I see it too, I haven't seen any new tech that can beat the old CRT for motion, Plasma just did a better job than any LCD I could find and for less money. When LCD can match Plasma for motion I will get one, but I just don't see it happening at all.
post #21 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by bosng View Post

i can't be the only one who's noticed motion blur on a plasma. maybe plasma folks aren't looking hard enough.

camera pans, judder, fuzzy edges during zooms. i see it on a plasma as well as lcd.

as for the 81 next to the kuros i saw in the store. the 81 lcd was definitely darker in the black areas than the kuros. ironically it was the pioneer flower (kuros) demo that was playing. go figure they are both nice sets. know what you like/want and get it.

I see the plasma motion blur, but it's much less significant.
post #22 of 117
I noticed the same thing until I looked closely and saw that the 71 series had big time black crush. The much vaunted talk of black level is not just about what set has the blackest black, it is what set can do that without crushing darker colors into black. Making all dark content black does not make the picture better, it makes it worse. The Pionners I saw were dimmer than the Samsungs, yet still showed a larger light to dark color variation than any other TV I saw.

That said, the Samsungs do look the best on the showroom floor to the casual observer. Frankly, I'm surprised B and M stores like BB can sell any TVs that are displayed next to them.
post #23 of 117
Hi,

Concerning Blacks/grey scale, I like old "film noir" DVDs. They are SD(so far).

If you've watched SD black and white DVDs on either the Kuro or 81, how did they look? Did these sets have a better picture than the average plasma or lcd?

Thanks.
post #24 of 117
In brighter environment the 71s will have deeper blacks than the Kuro because the screen is a gloss black(which I like!). Bet the opposite could be said in a dark environment. It just depends on what you like the most.

Each time I've visited BB I've had mixed feelings. Sometimes I like the Kuro better and others I like the Samsung. I like it that the Pioneers(and plasmas in general) saturate colors better than the Samsung in most cases. However the picture can look too dark sometimes on the Kuros. On the flip side, I like the brightness of the Samsungs(and LCDs in general). However, the picture can look washed out sometimes. Where is my taste? I'm in the middle . To each his own. Neither display is better than the other. Both are very nice displays. It just depends on where your taste lies.
post #25 of 117
I noticed this when at a Best Buy in Elyria, OH also. The Sammy 4671 blows away every other screen in that entire store. Its not in a bright environment either. Its located inside of a room with black walls and ceilings, with no lights cept for the different televisions. The 4671 was hands down better looking than the XBR4, and Kuro that were located in the same room.
post #26 of 117
The overly bright Best Buy environment causes light to bounce of the phosphors in a plasma making them look grey. LCDs don't have phosphors for the light to bounce off hence why they create the illusion of black in a Best Buy environment.

In your home environment the tables turn in plasmas favour because your are now under normal lighting conditions and there isn't as much light bouncing off the phosphors. The picture will look blacker but is still not absolute black. LCDs with their overly bright backlights now will look grey in the not so bright home environment. The bright Best Buy lighting hides the effect of the bright backlights.

This has been talked about for years guys. The Best Buy environment is not the place to judge a TV (Honestly do you have lighting like that in your home?)

Yes the gap is closing but with Pioneers new "Extreme Contrast" Models, that gap will be opening up once again.
post #27 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by cubbiechris View Post

...you can't compare TV's in a showroom floor. EVER!....

And what are we supposed to do, buy two or three displays and take them home for comparison???

The CircuitCity in my area had a 71 series setup playing a Blu-Ray disc of Casino Royale. It appeared to me that it was calibrated beautifully by the Samsung folks for display on the showroom floor. This was on the open floor, not like the dimmed area of a BestBuy Magnolia shop. The picture was the best I've ever seen, until I stood there awhile. Instead of film, I was watching a video camera movie. Nothing film like, and I would think it wouldn't wear well for continuous viewing. That, and the motion blur that still exists for my eyes, and I'd always take the Kuro panel. Of course, with their price tag, I'd be telling my wife and children that they couldn't watch certain SD channels due to the fear of burn-in, despite the claims contrary to that "old myth". So many factors to think about when choosing the "perfect" panel for your own viewing environment, especially overly bright windowed rooms!
post #28 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by cubbiechris View Post

I don't think the Sammy is even the best LCD. I think the XBR4/5 is a all around a better TV and it's really not that close.


Have to agree 100%. Sure, the Sammy has better blacks, but it cannot compare overal with Sony picture quality. Not even close. I believe the next coupl of generations, LED will truly shine.

As far as black are concerned, I think the Kuro beats it hands down.
post #29 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hef View Post

And what are we supposed to do, buy two or three displays and take them home for comparison???

The CircuitCity in my area had a 71 series setup playing a Blu-Ray disc of Casino Royale. It appeared to me that it was calibrated beautifully by the Samsung folks for display on the showroom floor. This was on the open floor, not like the dimmed area of a BestBuy Magnolia shop. The picture was the best I've ever seen, until I stood there awhile. Instead of film, I was watching a video camera movie. Nothing film like, and I would think it wouldn't wear well for continuous viewing. That, and the motion blur that still exists for my eyes, and I'd always take the Kuro panel. Of course, with their price tag, I'd be telling my wife and children that they couldn't watch certain SD channels due to the fear of burn-in, despite the claims contrary to that "old myth". So many factors to think about when choosing the "perfect" panel for your own viewing environment, especially overly bright windowed rooms!

The crazy thing is some people do... I've watched every single TV made in stores hundreds and hundreds of times. yes, all stores are different, and it's hard to compare, but the 2 best TV's in my opinion are the KURO and the XBR5.

What it always comes down to is all TV's have some sort of issue. When comparing TV's, it's truly a choice of the beholders eyes. I would LOVE to get a Plasma TV, but everytime I watch it, I get dizzy and a headache and it drives me CRAZY!!!! I really want the best of both worlds and have a Plasma and an LCD. If I could handle not gettting a headache, I'd sell my Sammy 65F and replace it with a plasma.
post #30 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandis View Post

The Magnolia area of our local BB is dark. And the flat panels do not face out into the bright store. It's a pretty good place to compare displays.

It's not the same kind of dark you would have at home during movietime...BB would have injury lawsuits piled up to the ceiling.

edit- unless you are talking about the enclosed room they use...but most of the tv's are displayed out on the showroom floor.
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