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Pioneer Kuros and Samsung LCD-How could this be?? - Page 2

post #31 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by joemama127 View Post

It's not the same kind of dark you would have at home during movietime...BB would have injury lawsuits piled up to the ceiling.

edit- unless you are talking about the enclosed room they use...but most of the tv's are displayed out on the showroom floor.

I agree with that, I watch in total darkness on any viewing that I really care about (when I can, wife and kid factor notwithstanding). I don't think that it's a bad place to evaluate displays, is all I'm saying.
post #32 of 117
My BB has the 46XBR4 and the Pio 5080 in one of their two "dark" rooms and the pioneer beats it for blacks hands down.
The 71 and 81 Sammy's are in the bright show room so can't make any judgements on them.
I know as far as plasmas go, the pio's strongly beat all competitors. And I own a Sammy 5084 currently.
post #33 of 117
How suitable the Samsung 81 series is compared to the Pioneer Kuros depends on your viewing situation. If you're always viewing "straight on", maybe the Samsung will work well for you. However, several reviewers have complained about its poor off-axis performance. Check these revews out:

http://hometheatermag.com/lcds/1207sam5281/

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...6.html?tag=txt

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hdt...-lcd-hdtv.html

I checked out both the Samsung 71 and 81 sets and the Pioneer Kuro 6010 and 150 sets at several local B&M stores. I certainly saw dramatic degradation in the PQ (black levels, color balance, saturation ...) of the Samsungs as I moved off-center; not so for the Pioneers. In our family room, if more than two people are watching TV someone will always be off to the side. So - that was a decisive vote for the Pioneer. I ended up with a 6010 (about a month ago), and have been very happy with this choice.
post #34 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by westa6969 View Post

CRT Fanites love to post this stuff when the facts are there were only a handful of CRT's with those reference blacks - please name them!

I owned one and it was a Sony top of the line but I would not trade one days viewing my 57" Sharp versus that reflective 4:3 puny 36" TV = no wow factor even with it's weaker blacks my Sharp blows away any friggin CRT which is why I donated it to a charity to go 16:9 large LCD and zero reflections and washout and loads of HT immersion a CRT DV dust collector monsters cannot provide.

Actually, I wanted very much to get into flat panels and use one as a new TV/computer monitor, but I couldn't justify the cost and trade-offs for different sources, gaming, color, black levels, greyscale, etc. So, I got a $300 Sony FW900 and I still don't believe other sets could match this in performance no matter what the budget was.

At any rate, it's certainly not a very large investment when you read about all the growing pains each new set has. I'd rather pick a set that works for me instead of one that has the fewest issues I have a problem with. That said, I'm probably being a tad unfair given that I need something that can run weird resolutions and scale rather nicely.
post #35 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketFodder View Post

Actually, I wanted very much to get into flat panels and use one as a new TV/computer monitor, but I couldn't justify the cost and trade-offs for different sources, gaming, color, black levels, greyscale, etc. So, I got a $300 Sony FW900 and I still don't believe other sets could match this in performance no matter what the budget was.

At any rate, it's certainly not a very large investment when you read about all the growing pains each new set has. I'd rather pick a set that works for me instead of one that has the fewest issues I have a problem with. That said, I'm probably being a tad unfair given that I need something that can run weird resolutions and scale rather nicely.

Well I don't think many of us can crowd the family around the 24" for a movie, regardless of the other good features that display might have.
post #36 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketFodder View Post

...So, I got a $300 Sony FW900 and I still don't believe other sets could match this in performance no matter what the budget was....

So, you bought a used 24" CRT monitor to fill your desk? What did you need this for...color correcting photographic works? For other than that, and there are LCDs that are doing the same now at much larger sizes, why would you restrict yourself like that? Sitting 2' away from the screen to get the "immersive" effect of a movie isn't in many folks life style.
post #37 of 117
The only flat screen type displays that are even close in picture quality to my two Sony TVs the KD-34XBR960 and KD-36XS955 are the Pioneer Plasma Kuro series. The only reason to switch to the Pioneer Plasma is the larger screens and less weight/space.
post #38 of 117
OT: i have the xbr910 and the 1080p KURO (which im still breaking in) - im still impressed with the CRT . OLED cant came soon enough for those chasing inky blacks
post #39 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by williamtassone View Post

OT: i have the xbr910 and the 1080p KURO (which im still breaking in) - im still impressed with the CRT . OLED cant came soon enough for those chasing inky blacks

which do you like better? the Xbr 910 or the Kuro? I have been looking at Kuros.
post #40 of 117
well if you're coming from one of those excellent CRT's then its hard.

Id call the switch to Kuro a "sideways" move. Since 2003 I looked for something that could beat CRT and never found it. Kuro seemed the best flat panel finally.
Blacks are very close to the sony and everything else is better, perfect geometry/convergence. No more line twitter. On a direct view CRT when a bright object moves quickly against a black background, you see motion trailing due to the slow decay phosphors. I dont see this problem on the Kuro

Sd-dvd looks better on the CRT for obvious reasons/

Motion handling of kuro looks identical to CRT to my naked eye.

At 5O inches you blow up the picture and hence you see things more: the film grain is more noticable as is any digital noise from the transfer.

Less than deep blacks pisses me off: when I have OLED then I will finally say I've upgraded from CRT.

If money is tight and you have a good CRT i'd bypass the Kuro. I know westa will disagree but the extra inches didn't make me any happier .

I love the sharpness and vibrant lush colors of LCD's, they are trully spectacular, but i watch a lot of movies and the washed out blacks are a deal breaker

know back to the original topic...
post #41 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by williamtassone View Post

...but the extra inches didn't make me any happier....

High def is all about screen size. It's the reason that large panels can be quite nice for viewing. Remember the large standard def projection sets? How bad were they? Not many folks are still satisfied with a 32-36" screen size, regardless of the "inky blacks". While I also have a high def CRT with an amazing picture quality, the limited screen size just doesn't compare to the large panels. I'll gladly give up the perceived contrast to get some added viewing dimension.
post #42 of 117
post #43 of 117
thanks for the link- if Rogo wants one , must be good!
I agree Jim. If one has the spare cash upgrade now but ideally the zero idle luminance Kuro would be the one to get at the end of the year.
post #44 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by williamtassone View Post

well if you're coming from one of those excellent CRT's then its hard.

Id call the switch to Kuro a "sideways" move. Since 2003 I looked for something that could beat CRT and never found it. Kuro seemed the best flat panel finally.
Blacks are very close to the sony and everything else is better, perfect geometry/convergence. No more line twitter. On a direct view CRT when a bright object moves quickly against a black background, you see motion trailing due to the slow decay phosphors. I dont see this problem on the Kuro

Sd-dvd looks better on the CRT for obvious reasons/

Motion handling of kuro looks identical to CRT to my naked eye.

At 5O inches you blow up the picture and hence you see things more: the film grain is more noticable as is any digital noise from the transfer.

Less than deep blacks pisses me off: when I have OLED then I will finally say I've upgraded from CRT.

If money is tight and you have a good CRT i'd bypass the Kuro. I know westa will disagree but the extra inches didn't make me any happier .

I love the sharpness and vibrant lush colors of LCD's, they are trully spectacular, but i watch a lot of movies and the washed out blacks are a deal breaker

know back to the original topic...


Thanks for the info. Actually the SD programming on TV looks bad on my Sony HD CRT. The SD DVD is fine. Are you saying that the SD programming will look worse on the 5080 or 5010?
post #45 of 117
highly compressed programs: i see the artifacts more clearly on a digital display
post #46 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by jet757f View Post

...Are you saying that the SD programming will look worse on the 5080 or 5010?

I would say that it's all about getting accustomed to the picture on the larger panel. I find SD programming just fine on any of my high def panels, and they are not "high end" stuff, although I have a good source via FiOS cable. DVDs played through an upconverting quality player, or even sent as 480p to a good scaler such as in the Pioneers, will deliver a very nice picture. I've found that I watch very little standard def programming anymore, and will even sit through programs I wouldn't normally watch just because they are in high def...i.e. Wealth TV!
post #47 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by jet757f View Post

Thanks for the info. Actually the SD programming on TV looks bad on my Sony HD CRT. The SD DVD is fine. Are you saying that the SD programming will look worse on the 5080 or 5010?

FWIW: on my 6010, SD programming from Dish HD varies widely - from OK to really ratty. I agree that watching ANY HD programming is far preferred to watching most of the available SD broadcasts. But - sometimes there's no choice ... I expect the necessity of watching SD will diminish with time.

On the flip side, SD DVDs are spectacular! I've got a Toshiba HD-XA2, and the quality of SD DVD output as 1080p from that is amazing. The XA2 has been RMA'd, so I'm back to using my 1999-vintage Panasonic DVD player for the moment - component out, and only 480i available (not progressive). The PQ of the DVDs we've watched this way has also been outstanding; if I didn't know better, I'd guess we were watching an HD broadcast! Maybe if I could do side-by-side with the XA2, I'd see the difference, but 480i into the 6010 is still stellar!
post #48 of 117
When are the successors to the Samsung 71s and 81s coming out? They might be halfway decent.
post #49 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by frostylou View Post

Hi guys,
I am thinking about buying the Pinoeer Kuros 50 inch. I have a Panny Plasma that I love and am going to move it up to the bedroom. At Best buy they had a Kuros, and yes, the Black levels were really good....but next to it was a Samsung 52 inch LCD that BLEW it away. I am in shock. The Samsung had an INK BLACK like I have never seen on a Flat panel, where I did not know that it was even on. They were both playing the same source. Even the picture on the Samsung BLEW me away, black aside

What's up????

Try this. On a blank input, the screen will be completely black. Turn up the volume and look at the graphics. The volume graphics will display with 1 big cloud on only the left corner of the volume display...ouch!
post #50 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

When are the successors to the Samsung 71s and 81s coming out? They might be halfway decent.

No need to wait. Pioneer Kuro is out now.
post #51 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by frostylou View Post

Hi guys,
I am thinking about buying the Pinoeer Kuros 50 inch. I have a Panny Plasma that I love and am going to move it up to the bedroom. At Best buy they had a Kuros, and yes, the Black levels were really good....but next to it was a Samsung 52 inch LCD that BLEW it away. I am in shock. The Samsung had an INK BLACK like I have never seen on a Flat panel, where I did not know that it was even on. They were both playing the same source. Even the picture on the Samsung BLEW me away, black aside

What's up????

This "shootout" between the Samsung LN-T5281F LCD and Pioneer Elite PRO-110FD plasma says it all (and gives the pros and cons of each):
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/fea...-round-ii.html
post #52 of 117
from sound and vision article:

"Picture Detail
The Samsung LCD was slightly better at cleanly reproducing the highest-resolution portion of 1080i and 1080p test patterns, while the Pioneer plasma introduced a bit of noise in that area — a not uncommon phenomenon that we comment on from time to time in our reviews. This isn't display-technology related, and it usually doesn't result in any visible loss of detail on program material — which was the case here. Both TVs delivered the ultra-sharp pictures we've come to expect from 1080p sets driven by high-quality HD signals. Each got a 10 for picture detail."



one of many comments in that shootout that just doesn't add up. these guys are obviously biased or maybe even payed off for plasma/pioneer.

one second they are praising the lcd for more detail in the picture/less noise the next they score the pioneer the same. logic will tell you that if one side has better detail, better bright scenes with also more detail, cleaner reproduction of images that should result in that side having a better score.

not only that, with loss of detail they should be discussing why the plasma was crushing blacks.

i noticed any time they even came close to a criticism of the pioneer they were beating around the bush hoping you could read between the lines.

funny indeed. just calling it like it is.
post #53 of 117
The Sammy LCD may be able to display a little more detail, but the Elite KURO blows the thing out of the water. Just because some of the detail may fade away with the DEEP, DARK blacks the KURO produces doesn't mean the picture quality is worse than the LCD. There was no bias, just an accurate rating of just how good the Pioneer really is.

If you looked at them side by side, you would see the difference, and the PRO-110FD is the clear winner, hands down.
post #54 of 117
For me, the off-axis degradation of the Samsung's PQ is the deciding "thumbs down" vote! Even if all other factors were equal ...
post #55 of 117
For me, the samsung LCD's 120 hz is the winner over any other flat panel or non flat panel TV out there right now. The pioneer blacks are only slightly better (if any, to me) compared to the samsung.

For the win.
post #56 of 117
LCD motion detail and motion resolution is an absolute joke!

The picture looks like crap when viewed from an angle!

Wake me up when LCD fixes both of those problems
post #57 of 117
hmm. i seem to recall the samsung lcd's 61,71,81 series were much blacker than the kuros beside it showing a feed of the "kuros" commercial too.
post #58 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by bosng View Post

hmm. i seem to recall the samsung lcd's 61,71,81 series were much blacker than the kuros beside it showing a feed of the "kuros" commercial too.

Was it a black blank screen?
post #59 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

LCD motion detail and motion resolution is an absolute joke!

The picture looks like crap when viewed from an angle!

Wake me up when LCD fixes both of those problems

You got that right, problem is, they are working on OLED and trying to get it to the market so I doubt they will ever fix them. I'm not even sure if OLED will fix the motion problems either, have they given any proof that it will? Until then Plasma is still the best "new" tech for motion.
post #60 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

Was it a black blank screen?

actually it was the kuros commercial, the black blank screens were also darker on the samsung
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