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Authoring Blue-Ray on regular DVD-R DL - Page 2

post #31 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo1965 View Post

I beg to differ. I have 35 BD-REs and 5 DVD/R disks that works on any player that supports AVCHD (Panasonic and PS3 were tested). Last year, I authored a 1GB BDMV on DVD-R that plays on panasonic and sony player and made the ISO available for people to download. I was hoping for people to tell me if it plays on their player.

From what I can tell, at least 5 people downloaded the ISO file that can be burnt onto any 8X speed DVD/R.

The disk was made from the 1080P Elephant Dreams VC-1 Optimal encode that microsoft was kind enough to distribute freely on their website. That video peaks at close to 50Mbps for 12 seconds.

I've never ever seen anyone burn a Bluray authored disc on a regular DVD-R and have it play in a stand alone Bluray player.

If you can show me a link to "how to" i'd be happy to read up and say I'm wrong.

I know you can author HD DVDs on standard DVD-Rs very easily and they play in every single player ever created and to be created.. part of the standard spec... not just only on the PS3.
post #32 of 99
OK, I did some research and tesing last night, and here is what I found (please correct me if I am wrong)...

You can create AVCHD/DVD-R discs that work on the PS3 and the Panny BD players. With software like Ulead MF and VS you can even create nice menus.

You can not create Blu-ray discs with DVD-Rs. Blu-ray discs need the data to be .1 mm from the surface and DVD-Rs have that data .6 MM from the surface.

Because the direcotry and file structure seem to be very similar, people may be creating AVCHD discs and thinking they are BD. It is my understaning though that they will ONLY work on the PS3 or Panasonic players.
post #33 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Everdog View Post

OK, I did some research and tesing last night, and here is what I found (please correct me if I am wrong)...

You can create AVCHD/DVD-R discs that work on the PS3 and the Panny BD players. With software like Ulead MF and VS you can even create nice menus.

You can not create Blu-ray discs with DVD-Rs. Blu-ray discs need the data to be .1 mm from the surface and DVD-Rs have that data .6 MM from the surface.

Because the direcotry and file structure seem to be very similar, people may be creating AVCHD discs and thinking they are BD. It is my understaning though that they will ONLY work on the PS3 or Panasonic players.

In practice, what are the differences between an AVCHD and Blu-ray disc? Why can't players other than the PS3 and Panasonic play an AVCHD disc?
post #34 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilsiu View Post

In practice, what are the differences between an AVCHD and Blu-ray disc? Why can't players other than the PS3 and Panasonic play an AVCHD disc?

Excellent questions, and I hope someone can answer them. I am still learning all this stuff.
post #35 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo1965 View Post

I beg to differ. I have 35 BD-REs and 5 DVD/R disks that works on any player that supports AVCHD (Panasonic and PS3 were tested). Last year, I authored a 1GB BDMV on DVD-R that plays on panasonic and sony player and made the ISO available for people to download. I was hoping for people to tell me if it plays on their player.

From what I can tell, at least 5 people downloaded the ISO file that can be burnt onto any 8X speed DVD/R.

The disk was made from the 1080P Elephant Dreams VC-1 Optimal encode that microsoft was kind enough to distribute freely on their website. That video peaks at close to 50Mbps for 12 seconds.

Is it still available for Download?
Thanks
post #36 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilsiu View Post

In practice, what are the differences between an AVCHD and Blu-ray disc? Why can't players other than the PS3 and Panasonic play an AVCHD disc?

ilsiu,

Here is a good info about AVCHD on Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVCHD
And I think that all BD players should be compliant with AVCHD.
post #37 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by MozartMan View Post

ilsiu,

Here is a good info about AVCHD on Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVCHD
And I think that all BD players should be compliant with AVCHD.

Does anyone know if you can play an AVCHD disc on a Samsung player?
post #38 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakashizuma View Post

Is it still available for Download?
Thanks

It already expired. I put it up on a filestorage service twice last year.

It takes a long time to upload, and also to download.

I was trying to find out if LG and samsung players could play the disks. I think at this point anything that says it plays AVCHD will work since that is essentially BDMV on recordable media.

If you look at the AVCHD folder structure on a SDHC or 8cm DVD/RW, there's a BDMV folder and the structure looks a lot like the BD, just that a rather pesky and troublesome folder is missing from the AVCHD disk. How titles and chapters are setup look pretty much identical between the two.

While in the long term camcorder content have too much fluff to leave unedited before presentation, avchd can be inserted directly into the bd players that support them and played directly, so just after you return home, you don't need to do a lot of editing and can still see the highdef footage you worked so hard to capture. That's a valuable convenience - no PC needed.

The key with avchd is that the elementary streams themselves do not have to be reencoded, meaning there is no reencoding quality loss. So if all I do is edit and splice the avchd files and then put them together again, the quality in principle (except perhaps at splice point) is identical to the original footage, which is important since I can avoid generation loss this way.

Alternately, HDV works too, but HDV at 25Mbps (MPEG2) will consume a lot of storage and AVCHD is typically at 12-14Mbps today, (should be ok unless you film rapid motion or water sprinklers a lot).

My two main complaint with AVCHD are (1) the bitrate is too low, which means that if I do take video of people splashing in a waterpark, there are artifacts. While small files is a convenience for DVD/R, down the road, I'd rather take the higher bitrate and have them do 25Mbps to match the HDV bandwidth, except with the higher quality that AVC can provide at the same bitrate. (2) Current camcorders are really using 540 line CCDs and all video is interlaced, true 1080P camcorders are priced at ridiculously high numbers it's beyond reach of the hobbyists.
post #39 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by MozartMan View Post

Neo,

I downloaded it and burned it on 8x DVD+RW. Played perfectly on PS3.

Yup, works on my PS3 too, but I was hoping for samsung and LG feedback. It's standardized as an AVCHD logo - if the box has this logo, then it can play the BDMV structure on a DVD/R. Ulead apparently supports it too now.
post #40 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by anotheraviator View Post

I've never ever seen anyone burn a Bluray authored disc on a regular DVD-R and have it play in a stand alone Bluray player.

If you can show me a link to "how to" i'd be happy to read up and say I'm wrong.

I know you can author HD DVDs on standard DVD-Rs very easily and they play in every single player ever created and to be created.. part of the standard spec... not just only on the PS3.

I started with that, but I've basically moved on to BD-RE for most of my content. Curiously my HD-A1 and A2 never could take the Ulead generated content and play past the layer change without skipping to the next chapter. It might be the Ritek/Ridata disks I use, but there's not a lot of options when it comes to inkjet-printable DL blanks, so I'm stuck with Ridata, which I know doesn't work as HD DVD on HD-A1/A2 but works as BDMV/AVCHD on a PS3.
post #41 of 99
I was told a Blu-ray compressionist/author that you cannot burn a true Blu-ray disc to DVD-R at this time and expect it to work on all standalone Blu-ray players. This is very problematic for him because he can't burn DVD-R versions of his work progress as demos for his clients.

It sounds like people are burning discs that don't meet the official Blu-ray spec, but which work on specific players like the PS3 and Panasonic players. To me, that is not Blu-ray. That's sort of like burning an MP3 CD and expecting it to work on a CD player. Yes it DOES work on some CD players, but that is not part of the CD spec.
post #42 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post

I was told a Blu-ray compressionist/author that you cannot burn a true Blu-ray disc to DVD-R at this time and expect it to work on all standalone Blu-ray players. This is very problematic for him because he can't burn DVD-R versions of his work progress as demos for his clients.

I'm in a somewhat similar situation, because what I'd like to do is produce inexpensive collections of movie trailers I can distribute to film buyers. That seems like the ideal scenario for a "mini HD-DVD" or Blu-Ray on DVD-r application, but right now compatible playback equipment isn't widespread enough to make it practical.

So I'm certainly following this discussion with interest, but it looks like the whole concept is not quite ready for prime-time.
post #43 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post

I was told a Blu-ray compressionist/author that you cannot burn a true Blu-ray disc to DVD-R at this time and expect it to work on all standalone Blu-ray players. This is very problematic for him because he can't burn DVD-R versions of his work progress as demos for his clients.

It sounds like people are burning discs that don't meet the official Blu-ray spec, but which work on specific players like the PS3 and Panasonic players. To me, that is not Blu-ray. That's sort of like burning an MP3 CD and expecting it to work on a CD player. Yes it DOES work on some CD players, but that is not part of the CD spec.

That's why I'm hoping we see some announcements by mainstream authoring solution vendors in the coming months (Apple at Macworld this month and/or at NAB in April [along w/ other big hitters like Sonic, Ulead, Adobe and Roxio, etc.]). When those guys get behind it w/ robust, easy-to-use and 100% spec toolsets, we'll be sure that the reliability of playback will have crossed the speculative/experimental stage. I'm happy folks have made this their hobby...but I just don't have the time/money to burn ( get it?). I'm waiting for a drag-and-drop, pop in a disc and go solution that just works. But, believe me, I'm learning a lot from this discussion--so thanks and keep it coming.
post #44 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post

I was told a Blu-ray compressionist/author that you cannot burn a true Blu-ray disc to DVD-R at this time and expect it to work on all standalone Blu-ray players. This is very problematic for him because he can't burn DVD-R versions of his work progress as demos for his clients.

It sounds like people are burning discs that don't meet the official Blu-ray spec, but which work on specific players like the PS3 and Panasonic players. To me, that is not Blu-ray. That's sort of like burning an MP3 CD and expecting it to work on a CD player. Yes it DOES work on some CD players, but that is not part of the CD spec.

It's known as AVCHD. If it has the AVCHD logo on the player, then it is compliant. AVCHD for all intents and purposes is BDMV, just that it can be on a DVD/R.

It is true though that due to the large number of different manufacturers of BD players, the firmware updates are not always complete immediately. This is why voting with our dollars will count. If player manufacturers know what features sell players (eg : streaming DTHD/DTSHD directly from the disk to HDMI, AVCHD, SDHC and photo slideshows), then they have to include them into firmware upgrades.

Because Sony and Panasonic have released fw upgrades to their players to support AVCHD, there is no BDA legal or technical barrier for the other box makers not to do so. The thing is BDMV on red laser anyway. AND BD9 is part of the spec too.
post #45 of 99
Thread Starter 
My video infos are:

File Name: War Of The Worlds.ts
File Size: 114229176 ( 0.11 GB )
Program Duration: 00:00:59.28
File Type: TS Stream
Encoding: MPEG 2
Video stream Id: 17 (x11)
Encoding Dimensions: 1920 x 1080
Display Size: 1920 x 1080
Aspect Ratio: 16/9
Frame Rate: 29.97 FPS
Bit Rate: 18.000 Mbps
VBV_Buffer: 976 KB
Profile: Main/High
Progressive: Prog or Int
Chroma: 4:2:0
Audio Format: 5.1
Audio Stream Id: AC3: 20 (x14)
Audio Bit Rate: 384 Kbps
Audio Sampling Rate: 48000 Hz

I thought thats what TSremux was made for. I already tried Ulead it won't let me record to DVD-R, I can create an image on my hard drive but excedes the DVD-R DL capacity, as of the thread that you posted a link for it's a 31 pages I can't go thru all that I just read the first two pages they are talking about creating a real blue-ray disc which is out of my budget.
post #46 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo1965 View Post

It's known as AVCHD. If it has the AVCHD logo on the player, then it is compliant. AVCHD for all intents and purposes is BDMV, just that it can be on a DVD/R.

It is true though that due to the large number of different manufacturers of BD players, the firmware updates are not always complete immediately. This is why voting with our dollars will count. If player manufacturers know what features sell players (eg : streaming DTHD/DTSHD directly from the disk to HDMI, AVCHD, SDHC and photo slideshows), then they have to include them into firmware upgrades.

Because Sony and Panasonic have released fw upgrades to their players to support AVCHD, there is no BDA legal or technical barrier for the other box makers not to do so. The thing is BDMV on red laser anyway. AND BD9 is part of the spec too.

AVCHD alone is not part of the Blu-ray spec AFAIK, which is my point.

Slapping an AVCHD logo on a Blu-ray player is like slapping an MP3 logo on a CD player or a DivX logo on a DVD player.
post #47 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo1965 View Post

It's known as AVCHD. If it has the AVCHD logo on the player, then it is compliant. AVCHD for all intents and purposes is BDMV, just that it can be on a DVD/R.

It is true though that due to the large number of different manufacturers of BD players, the firmware updates are not always complete immediately. This is why voting with our dollars will count. If player manufacturers know what features sell players (eg : streaming DTHD/DTSHD directly from the disk to HDMI, AVCHD, SDHC and photo slideshows), then they have to include them into firmware upgrades.

Because Sony and Panasonic have released fw upgrades to their players to support AVCHD, there is no BDA legal or technical barrier for the other box makers not to do so. The thing is BDMV on red laser anyway. AND BD9 is part of the spec too.

Since you have a vast knowledge in AVCHD, let me use the opporunity and ask few questions :

1)What's the maximum bitrate for Dolby Digital in AVCHD?
2)Does AVCHD support PCM 5.1/7.1 for soundtrack?
3) The wiki article says
Quote:


. The compressed audio and video data are encapsulated in an MPEG-2 Transport stream called BDAV

If so, how BDAV becomes BDMV?

4) Does the spec for AVCHD allow for subtitles?

Thanks in advance.
post #48 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post

AVCHD alone is not part of the Blu-ray spec AFAIK, which is my point.

Slapping an AVCHD logo on a Blu-ray player is like slapping an MP3 logo on a CD player or a DivX logo on a DVD player.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVCHD

Quote:


This stream format and most of the structure of AVCHD are derived from the Blu-ray Disc BDMV format.
post #49 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by MozartMan View Post

This stream format and most of the structure of AVCHD are derived from the Blu-ray Disc BDMV format.

You can burn PCM audio files to a CD too and that won't work in existing players. You can burn MPEG2 files to DVD and that won't work in existing players.

The point is to create PROPER SPEC discs so they work in all Blu-ray players.

BTW, my DVD player (which is NOT a DVD recorder) can play DVD-VR. I would never recommend using this format to make DVDs to give to friends or clients though.
post #50 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

AVCHD and BDMV are both subsets of HDMV. Any Blu-ray player will support both. Until we see otherwise then it is just useless speculation.

And despite its name you can use MPEG2 as well with a tool like TSRemux.

Panasonic players and the PS3 are kind of unique. They read jpegs, mp3s and other non-blu-ray formats.

Until someone with another player says so, I think it would be better to say we don't know if it will work... and to say it will on ANY Blu-ray player is just "useless speculation".
post #51 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

BD-9 was added at the last minute to the Blu-ray standard. I assume it is optional since some players do not support it (most notably the PS3). I don't think Sony was too keen on the idea. They probably want to encourage everyone to buy Blu-ray burners. Business is business I guess.

But if you still want to use regular DVDs then you have AVCHD. It works in PS3 and in every blu-ray player as far as I know.

AVCHD and BDMV are both subsets of HDMV. Any Blu-ray player will support both. Until we see otherwise then it is just useless speculation.

And despite its name you can use MPEG2 as well with a tool like TSRemux.

In light of that lack of "keeness" that I think all us know Hollywood likely has for high def recording on standard dvd, what's the liklelyhood that with no more format war we will see even less support for these out-of-spec solutions on blu-ray?

PS3 is updated quite regularly after all and I don't think it's far fetched to imagine future updates enforcing the spec more, not less.

By contrast hd dvd officially supports high def recording on hd dvd9. By all accounts the entire process is easier and more reliable which I maintain is another good reason to keep an hd dvd player.
post #52 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

PS3 is updated quite regularly after all and I don't think it's far fetched to imagine future updates enforcing the spec more, not less.

I think it's unlikely that they'll take away this feature.

However, that's not the point. The point is that the not all players are the PS3 (or Panasonic, or whatever).

The point is that the spec exists, and if this doesn't meet that spec, then it's pointless for many people... like that disc author I was talking about, trying to make demos for his clients.

A similar situation for example would be wedding videographers making HD movies for their newlywed clients. A non-spec video just doesn't cut it.
post #53 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

The point is stop being cheap and wanting to stick to DVDs. Anyone who is serious about HD will buy a Blu-ray burner and burn REAL blu-rays where you can get more than 30 minutes of video on a disc. These will work in every player. I certainly would not give my business to any wedding photographer who can't afford a $300 blu-ray burner at this point.

This is no different than people who wanted to burn VCD onto regular CDs and watch them in a DVD player. And not all DVD players supported VCDs. Mine certainly didn't. But how many people are there that still want to make VCDs? None. And thats how many people there will be in 2 years who still want to make BD-9. Media prices will continue to drop.

Sorry I just had to get that off my chest.

And it still doesn't change the fact that AVCHD works in all Blu-ray players. If you have some evidence to the contrary please provide it.

BD25 blanks are $10-20 a piece, even in volume.

On the other hand blank DVD is down to like .25 per.

You can easily show off your typical 20 minute home movie on a 4.5 or 9GB regular DVD.

What exactly is the advantage of burning to BD25 with a PC BD burner other than the extra capacity? I don't see how it's "being cheap" when you are talking about hundreds of dollars for a BD burner not to mention the crazy media costs. Lets hope you don't burn a coaster since a single blank is what it costs to eat lunch at a sit down restaurant.
post #54 of 99
Thread Starter 
Guys back to the subject of the thread that I've started, how to make a blue-ray or AVCHD or whatever you wonna call it on a regular DVD-/+R or DL, anyway I tried TSRemux from the 1 min video file bellow burned it on DVD+R DL but my PS3 was unable to read it, error message "The video cannot be played (8002994)" I have already the latest PS3 firmware:

File Name: War Of The Worlds.ts
File Size: 114229176 ( 0.11 GB )
Program Duration: 00:00:59.28
File Type: TS Stream
Encoding: MPEG 2
Video stream Id: 17 (x11)
Encoding Dimensions: 1920 x 1080
Display Size: 1920 x 1080
Aspect Ratio: 16/9
Frame Rate: 29.97 FPS
Bit Rate: 18.000 Mbps
VBV_Buffer: 976 KB
Profile: Main/High
Progressive: Prog or Int
Chroma: 4:2:0
Audio Format: 5.1
Audio Stream Id: AC3: 20 (x14)
Audio Bit Rate: 384 Kbps
Audio Sampling Rate: 48000 Hz
post #55 of 99
Thread Starter 
ok I think this thread should be closed now, thanks
post #56 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

BD media is $8 now. And you don't have to buy in volume. Just a year ago it was $20. Its coming down a lot faster than CD and DVD ever did. I still remember when DVDs were $50.

And you can avoid coasters by testing on rewritable media. They only cost about $12. And you only need one.

It is foolish to spend $8 per disc, when you can spend 50 cents.
post #57 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

And it still doesn't change the fact that AVCHD works in all Blu-ray players. If you have some evidence to the contrary please provide it.

I have read through several player reviews and ONLY the Panasonic ones mention that the they can also play AVCHD. They say that is an extra feature on the Panasonic.

Also, I though I read in the Blu-ray forums that a few players like the S300 will NOT play BD-RE discs. I looked at the specs for it and the S300 does not have BD-REs listed while several other Blu players do.
post #58 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post

It is foolish to spend $8 per disc, when you can spend 50 cents.

For Christmas I made 8 HD discs for family members. My wife found a mispelling after I burned them, so I had to burn them again. I also used about 8 more discs for tests.

I can't imagine paying $200 - $400 every time just to make a few discs for my family and friends. Buying USB flash drives would be a lot cheaper!

CC had a deal where I bought 50 DVD-Rs for $12 (24 cents each). I still have almost half left.
post #59 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakashizuma View Post

Since you have a vast knowledge in AVCHD, let me use the opporunity and ask few questions :

1)What's the maximum bitrate for Dolby Digital in AVCHD?
2)Does AVCHD support PCM 5.1/7.1 for soundtrack?
3) The wiki article says

If so, how BDAV becomes BDMV?

4) Does the spec for AVCHD allow for subtitles?

Thanks in advance.

From what little I saw AVCHD supports everything in BDMV. The disk is just flagged as AVCHD, o/w it is identical to a BDMV w/o a pesky folder. Hypothetically, one can create a AVCHD contraining mpeg2, avc or vc-1 m2ts (m2ts is just transport stream with some extra rules) files. The DD audio is at most 640kbps.... Lights must be flashing now, but yes this is a problem for the rum & eyepatch crowd. Anyway...

DD+/EAC3 audio is a problem for direct transcription onto BD. The option there is to convert the DD+ to PCM (or perhaps DD/DTS). There is a tool that does this. IMO, it's much better to just buy the BD version if available instead of taking HD DVD main feature and converting them to a BD-RE even though it can be done, the costs of the blanks makes it uneconomical, and there is no fancy menus. I've never tried PCM here as I'm not an audio fanatic, but in principle there is no reason why it won't work given it's the same m2ts files that can be played on either, unless the player deliberately disallows it.

I think that AVCHD is primarily done for the home camcorder crowd and that if it is abused by the wrong people for the wrong purposes, we might get stuck with heavier requirements and that dreaded folder might come back in, and that would make life difficult for us HD camcorder people.

BDAV was an MPEG2 only format from what I recall, it might have been used in the first BD recorders in japan, it is also different from BDMV, it's like there for legacy reasons as new Panasonic and Sony BD recorders are BDMV now. AND, these recorders have that dreaded folder on BD-RE !!!! !!!! making life difficult for us.

As the hacked AVCHD today is just BDMV in every known way (except for that flag), I'm not sure why subtitles would not work. I don't know how to do this!

This is all hypothetical. Other than main audio and main video from camcorders, in principle, it's a legal gray area to mess with this stuff if you don't own the content, and after DMCA, for americans, even if you own the disk legally, there's apparently stuff you can't do with it.

There's other places that talk about this stuff.

---
Sorry benes, I didn't read your notes before replying. I actually dabble in these things and have no interest in the rum and eye patch side of it. I needed to get a lot of video over to BD-RE/BD-R and that's why I looked into it. Even though the urge is great to do certain things to get around the pesky format war here, I resisted and resisted and .... ....

This thread is the wrong place for this so I won't reply. Perhaps it can be moved over?
post #60 of 99
OK this is my understanding. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

1) BDMV requires AACS, basically making it a non-starter for consumers.
2) BDAV does not require AACS.
3) BDAV is not supported by all Blu-ray standalones.
4) BDAV does not support advanced menuing. This requires BDMV.

So, effectively, it is impossible to create a full-spec Blu-ray disc at home which will work in all Blu-ray players.
However, even if all the players you deal with support BDAV, it is still a problem because of the menu limitations.
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