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What you should know about video processing

post #1 of 33
Thread Starter 
What you should know about video processing.

The last few years have seen an increase in the number of video processing options available to the home theater consumer. I have seen an increase in the 'Amps, Receivers and Processors' forum wondering what video processing can do for them. This thread is an attempt to educate buyers.

Video processors in receivers can perform a number of tasks. From my experience, people tend to focus on deinterlacing and scaling. This article will focus mainly on those two features. But the video processing chips used in receivers may be able to perform other tasks such as noise reduction.

Before discussing deinterlacing and scaling, a little background may be helpful. For simplicity, this article will discuss TVs, but much of this article applies to projectors as well.

When discussing TV resolutions, there are two basic categories of display devices, CRT based and non CRT based. CRT based display devices are being rapidly replaced by addressable pixel displays based on LCD, Plasma or DLP technology.

Not too long ago, all displays were CRT (cathode ray tube) based. The US TV standard is often referred to as NTSC, named after the National Television Standards Committee. In the US system 525 scan lines, of which 486 are visible, are sent, but only half at a time (either the even scan lines, or the odd scan lines.) This is called interlaced scanning. This number of scan lines is often rounded off to 480 and an 'i' is added to indicate interlacing (p indicates progressive scan.)

CRT based TVs are being replaced by addressable or fixed pixel displays. These TVs have pixels which can be turned on and off individually. The picture made up of a bunch of pixels (picture elements) which can be independently controlled. These include LCD, plasma and DLP technologies. This includes projectors based on LCD or DLP technology as well.

Both CRTs and fixed pixel displays have a resolution. CRT resolutions can be specified in a number of ways, some of which are misleading. Fixed pixel displays resolutions are given by specifying either the number of vertical and horizontal pixels, or just the number of vertical lines. Common HDTV vertical line resolutions are 720p and 1080p. Common HDTV pixel resolutions are 1376x768 and 1920x1080. 1920x1080 is the exact resolution of a 1080p HDTV signal. 1376x768 is also referred to as 720p, but the exact resolution of 720p is 1280x720. I could not find a reliable explanation for why manufacturers use 1376x768, but the HDTV article in wikipedia has an explanation.

All fixed pixel displays have to convert the incoming signal to their native resolution. If the signal is interlaced, then they also have to deinterlace it. For example, a TV with a resolution of 1376x768 must first deinterlace a 480i signal and then scale it to match the TVs resolution. This is important to understand. Manufacturers put scalers into DVD players and then claim they will give you “near HD quality”. But if your TV is a fixed pixel display like most HDTVs, it HAS to scale to it’s native resolution. This makes this scaling ability in DVD players much less useful than in looks. The DVD player may have a better scaler chip in it than your TV does, but scaling isn’t particularly difficult. Also note that “near HD quality” is potentially misleading. Scaling an image to a higher resolution doesn’t add detail.
Deinterlacing is a harder problem than scaling. A receiver with a better deinterlacer than your TV may be helpful. For example, you may be able to use your receiver to deinterlace 480i from a cable box or game console and improve the video quality because your receiver does a better job of deinterlacing.

Without getting into too much detail, it’s perhaps useful to discuss why deinterlacing is challenging. There are two main problems to deinterlacing. The first problem is that interlaced scanning breaks the image up into two fields, that were usually captured at slightly different times. If all a deinterlacer did was to combine the lines, any object in motion would have artifacts caused by the fact that half of it is one place, and half in the other.

The other problem occurs when attempting to deinterlaced film material, such as off a DVD. Because films have a frame rate of 24 frames per second, and the NTSC standard is 30fps we have a mismatch. DVD players will use something called 3:2 pulldown to convert from 24fps to 30fps. 3:2 pulldown work perfectly fine for displaying a movie using interlaced scanning. Remember DVD players were designed back when most TVs used interlaced scanning. The problem occurs when some device tries to convert the image to progressive scan. If the device has no ability to detect that the signal it’s receiving is using 3:2 pulldown, it will combine fields from two different frames. A good deinterlacer can detect 3:2 pulldown, and assemble fields into frames correctly.

The details can be confusing. To summarize, deinterlacing is challenging, and some deinterlacers are better than others. There are some discs that can test the abilities of a deinterlacer such as the Silicon Optix HQV benchmark.
The best video processor can only correct some issues. When it comes to bad looking analog cable, there's not much hope. If the signal is ghosted, colors are distorted, the picture is fuzzy, etc, well then you have a bad signal. Bug the cable company to fix it, live with it, or upgrade to high definition cable when and if possible. Can a receiver’s video processor improve the signal? Certainly. But don’t expect miracles. Manufacturers always want you to believe that various features in their product will dramatically improve your experience. In my experience, dramatic improvements are rare. In my opinion, the last dramatic improvement for home audio/video was the DVD.

Hard code videophiles are more likely to see improvements in one video processor over another, because they have trained themselves for what to look for. For example, hard core videophiles are aware of a common DVD player problem called the chroma upsampling error. Most viewers won’t notice this issue. Casual viewers should not expect dramatic improvements from a receiver’s video processor, and may not know what to look for with subtle improvements.
Use the best deinterlacing solution available to you. This requires that you try out various settings in your video player and receiver. If you can’t see differences from one setting to the other, don’t worry too much about it.

Ideally, you should not be scaling multiple times. Consider TVs with a resolution of 1376x768. If you have your video player or receiver upscale a signal to 720p your TV will rescale the signal to it’s native resolution.

In summary, video processors in a receiver may or may not improve your video quality. Even though they may be able to convert a video signal to 1080p, that’s no guarantee your video quality will improve. They can’t add detail to the signal. If you want more detail, get a higher resolution source such high definition cable, HD DVD, Blu-ray or a high definition game console. Also note that some receivers may be able to “upscale” an analog signal when converting it to HDMI, but may not be able to upscale HDMI signals. Make sure you understand the receiver’s exact capabilities.
post #2 of 33
Thread Starter 
No comments? I admit to being disgusted by the marketers who are trying to make you spend more money than you have to, but I hope I have reported the facts as they stand
post #3 of 33
Thread Starter 
Updated for some info on 1080p24
post #4 of 33
Thanks for your very helpful explanation. A few questions, if I may.

1. You write: "An AVR may be able to improve a decent looking 480i signal such as from digital cable, if it has a quality deinterlacer though." I take it you say "a decent looking 480i signal," because you believe that a crappy signal will still look crappy, no matter how good the video processor. Is that your view?

2. If you have a decent looking 480i signal, does the ability of the AVR to improve the picture quality depend on whether it has a better video processor than the HDTV?

If so, how likely is it that AVR will have the better processor? Is there any kind of general pricing guide, e.g., top of the line AVR better than all HDTV except the very best, e.g., $3,000+. I mean, how does one tell whether this or that AVR has a better processor than this or that TV?

3. Even if the AVR is better, how much better? Are we talking about marginal improvements that some won't even notice? clear superiority? can't tell the upcoverted 480i from actual HD good?
post #5 of 33
Thread Starter 
1. Yes, that's my view. Some may disagree of course
2. Absolutely, and I think most agree with me there
3. Manufacturers (their marketing departments specifically) and purchasers tend to overstate improvements. I have bought into the hype in the past on some things, and am now much more wary. DVDs with Dolby Digital soundtracks were the last great AV product innovation in my opinion (laserdisc came first actually, but few of us wen that route.) I find that if I lower my expectations on a given technology's benefits, I am much closer to the truth
post #6 of 33
Michael, I think you did an excellent job of explaining a process that I'm sure a lot of people on this forum don't understand fully. Thanks very much.

Gene
post #7 of 33
Thanks for the read. All of this info. that we are fed these days can make everything so confusing; scaling this, processing that, HDMI 1.XXXXX. I got caught up in the hype last year and purchased an AVR with a video scaler inside. Now after months of frustration using HDMI, or should I say trying to use, I feel as though I want to go back and re-do my system without the scaler and without HDMI.

If the only thing i may miss out on are the new True-HD and DTS modes then I have no problem switching back. At least my system will be a lot less troublesome.

I think that many of the AV companies should leave the video scaling to those companies that specialize in it.
post #8 of 33
There are some pragmatic aspects to video processing that can benefit users regardless of how good the processing is in their other equipment. For instance...

1) The ability to convert various forms of inputs to others... S-Video to HDMI

2) The ability to overlay the volume level or menus at the same resolution as the screen.

3) The ability to select and send video to a second zone/display independent or the same as the main zone/display.

4) The ability to pass through video/audio without conversion, and ideally do so even when the A/V receiver is in standby mode. Some people like to watch TV through the TV's speakers without cranking up the entire A/V system.

Unfortunately the support for these 4 items is seriously lacking in most A/V receivers.
post #9 of 33
Thread Starter 
If I didn't mention (1), I probably should have.

I would guess when video processing chips start supporting (2), we will start seeing that feature in models using those chips

I would guess that multi-zone HDMI output (3) will be a higher end feature

Video passthrough worked for VCRs which did not have to switch inputs. I don't see how it would would with an AVR which switches sources. And I would think most video circuits are not passive these days. Which means the AVR needs to be on.
post #10 of 33
Probably the most important feature for improving quality of older / low quality sources, which would mostly use composite video, would be the quality of the comb filter. A lot of AVRs will "upconvert" composite to something better without a comb filter.
post #11 of 33
Thread Starter 
I didn't much address composite video in the article. People may be stuck with composite video for cable or VCR sources though. I have never experimented with upconverting VCR signals. I no longer choose to watch or listen to VHS

Hopefully cable will start moving away from analog, and also provide component/HDMI outputs on their cable box.
post #12 of 33
I dunno about you guys, but all the SD digital cable boxes I've seen only have RF and composite out. They have options for S-video that I have never seen be in place. Most of my relatives have these.
post #13 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I would guess when video processing chips start supporting (2), we will start seeing that feature in models using those chips

I would guess that multi-zone HDMI output (3) will be a higher end feature

Video passthrough worked for VCRs which did not have to switch inputs. I don't see how it would would with an AVR which switches sources. And I would think most video circuits are not passive these days. Which means the AVR needs to be on.

The high-end Denon's support volume overlay over HDMI. I'm not sure which other units do.

Sadly, multi-zone HDMI output is an ignored feature, but it shouldn't be. The idea of having video processing in a receiver is so everything can connect to the receiver and only a single cable has to go to your TV. But some people have projectors, and other folks (like me) just have a second TV in a nearby room. I don't even use the video switching ability of my current receiver because of it's lack of essential features.

And as far as supporting video passthrough, note I didn't say the AVR had to be "off", but it should be in standby. An AVR (depending how it was designed) could potentially crank on the video switching hardware while leaving most everything else in a low power mode.

So as I said, while the goal of any AVR should be to allow all video and audio to feed through the AVR, it's often hard to tell if that will really work until you start wiring things up; but IMO that's the most fundamental goal of video processing.

As for scaling? I could careless. I may tinker with it a bit and ultimately leave it disabled. But the AVR had better help simplify my audio rack. When someone in the family turns that source knob, they should see the correct sound and picture.
post #14 of 33
Thread Starter 
Don't most TVs have a comb filter? So the issue would be video conversion from composite to some other format without first applying comb filtering?
post #15 of 33
Thread Starter 
I used a narrower defintion of video processing than you did. The ability of an AVR to act as a hub for your audio/video needs is important to me as well. I remember buying a receiver with component inputs, getting it home, and then realizing it would not upscale to component video. I had thought it was going to eliminate the need to switch video from my TV.

It's even harder now to determine exactly how an AVR implements it's feature set.
post #16 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

No comments? I admit to being disgusted by the marketers who are trying to make you spend more money than you have to, but I hope I have reported the facts as they stand

The only comment I have is, "Thank you."

I have an older Mitsubishi 65" HDTV and the 'only' HD input is a component input that is currently being used by my D* sat receiver. My AVR handles my audio, but my video input switching is done at the TV. (My Logitech Harmony 880 makes this a simple task, thankfully.)

With the recent changes in HD formats and inputs, specifically HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, I have been looking for a video switching solution that will work for me.

Considering that my TV will ONLY accept 480i, 480p and 1080i, my options seem to be limited to either a new AVR that will convert a 720p/1080p to 1080i, or replace my TV.

As it stands, I will probably upgrade my AVR.

Thanks for clarifying things in your post. If you or anyone else could point me to a link/post that covers a subjective view on selecting an AVR for this purpose, I would greatly appreciate it.

Regards,

Mark
post #17 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW747 View Post

4) The ability to pass through video/audio without conversion, and ideally do so even when the A/V receiver is in standby mode. Some people like to watch TV through the TV's speakers without cranking up the entire A/V system.

Do any receivers or pre/pro support video/audio pass through while in standby? I would LOVE this!!
post #18 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasthotrod View Post

The only comment I have is, "Thank you."

I have an older Mitsubishi 65" HDTV and the 'only' HD input is a component input that is currently being used by my D* sat receiver. My AVR handles my audio, but my video input switching is done at the TV. (My Logitech Harmony 880 makes this a simple task, thankfully.)

With the recent changes in HD formats and inputs, specifically HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, I have been looking for a video switching solution that will work for me.

Considering that my TV will ONLY accept 480i, 480p and 1080i, my options seem to be limited to either a new AVR that will convert a 720p/1080p to 1080i, or replace my TV.

As it stands, I will probably upgrade my AVR.

Thanks for clarifying things in your post. If you or anyone else could point me to a link/post that covers a subjective view on selecting an AVR for this purpose, I would greatly appreciate it.

Regards,

Mark

I too want to thank you for your explanation of a complex morass of information.

I currently own a RP HDTV with a DVI input. Other HD inputs are component. The set I own displays @ 1080i. I have a Toshiba HD-A1 connected via HDMI/DVI to the TV. The audio is optically sent to my Denon AVR 2803. I was thinking I needed a new AVR to enjoy the full extent of HD DVD/ Blu Ray (I don't have one yet but I will soon). So I was searching for an inexpensive solution to fit my needs. The information I uncovered is so misleading.

HDMI inputs/outputs are not needed for excellent sound processing, nor is the AVR the best for video processing. Unless I spend several thousand dollars to upgrade ALL my equipment, I can enjoy what I have now. Of course the sales people want my $$$ so they give me the routine that all I have is obsolete.

So (pardon my vent) the question remains for me do I need to upgrade my AVR 2803 to attain better PQ? Or is my current set up giving me the best it can already? It would seem to me the difference in 1080i to 1080p is not that great. Is this correct? Also if my TV will display 1080i what benifit would a new reciever be other than sound and HDMI in/out? Since my TV only has a DVI input doesn't this restrict the video to a degree?

Obviously I am not well versed in this technology and after reading these forums I am more confused than before. I gotta say this thread has been very helpful to put into laymans terms the "gobbledegook" of techno speak for an uninitiated novice.(me).

My considerable confusion is lessend but the querie still remains...

Aside from sound quality will I get any benifit from a receiver upgrade?

HDMI inputs apart from ease of connectability do they transfer audio/video and would I need the best video switcher in the AVR to suppliment my one meager DVI input? Would I be better off allowing the Blu-ray/ HD-DVD to process the sound (True HD etc.) And would my reciever recognise these newer sound mixes?

I am going to get a Blu ray player in the next few weeks, maybe I would be better off just getting a video switcher to allow for 2 HDMI inputs that I am currently lacking.

Any suggestions and answers are really appreciated.


Bakeman
post #19 of 33
My brain hurts after reading all this.
post #20 of 33
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerman View Post

I too want to thank you for your explanation of a complex morass of information.

I currently own a RP HDTV with a DVI input. Other HD inputs are component. The set I own displays @ 1080i. I have a Toshiba HD-A1 connected via HDMI/DVI to the TV. The audio is optically sent to my Denon AVR 2803. I was thinking I needed a new AVR to enjoy the full extent of HD DVD/ Blu Ray (I don't have one yet but I will soon). So I was searching for an inexpensive solution to fit my needs. The information I uncovered is so misleading.

HDMI inputs/outputs are not needed for excellent sound processing, nor is the AVR the best for video processing. Unless I spend several thousand dollars to upgrade ALL my equipment, I can enjoy what I have now. Of course the sales people want my $$$ so they give me the routine that all I have is obsolete.

So (pardon my vent) the question remains for me do I need to upgrade my AVR 2803 to attain better PQ? Or is my current set up giving me the best it can already? It would seem to me the difference in 1080i to 1080p is not that great. Is this correct? Also if my TV will display 1080i what benifit would a new reciever be other than sound and HDMI in/out? Since my TV only has a DVI input doesn't this restrict the video to a degree?

Obviously I am not well versed in this technology and after reading these forums I am more confused than before. I gotta say this thread has been very helpful to put into laymans terms the "gobbledegook" of techno speak for an uninitiated novice.(me).

My considerable confusion is lessend but the querie still remains...

Aside from sound quality will I get any benifit from a receiver upgrade?

HDMI inputs apart from ease of connectability do they transfer audio/video and would I need the best video switcher in the AVR to suppliment my one meager DVI input? Would I be better off allowing the Blu-ray/ HD-DVD to process the sound (True HD etc.) And would my reciever recognise these newer sound mixes?

I am going to get a Blu ray player in the next few weeks, maybe I would be better off just getting a video switcher to allow for 2 HDMI inputs that I am currently lacking.

Any suggestions and answers are really appreciated.


Bakeman

The usual claim is that you need a large enough screen before 1080i vs 1080p becomes noticable. And viewing distance matters for the same reason (perceptually, the screen is smaller as you move away from it.) That makes sense to me. If you enlarge a digital photo large enough, it becomes blurry. You could google 1080i vs 1080p or something like that for reccomendations on what screen size at what viewing distance 1080p makes a difference.

HDMI is useful for the following reasons -
* Reduces cables (especially if you are using it for both audio and video)
* Allows for higher bandwidth digital audio, in particular 5.1/7.1 PCM, TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby Digital+
* Eliminates the need for a digital video to component analog back to digital conversion when going from a digital source (DVD, Blu-ray, HD DVD) to an addressable pixel display (LCD, Plasma, DLP)
post #21 of 33
Okay so if I get a HDMI capable receiver would the HDMI/DVI connection still effect the newer audio codecs , or would they remain within the receiver and process accordingly?

I've interpreted elsewhere that if the TV input is not HDMI v1.3 compliant then the TRUE HD and DTS HD audio will not be produced . Is this correct or am I completely off base here? Also does the receiver need to be HDMI v1.3 compliant to process the newer codecs?

The AVR I have now does NOT have HDMI capability at all, so the best I can get with audio is DD and DTS 5.1 matrixed to 7.1. Either via analog or optical (toslink). Therefore all my audio is digital/analog/digital output.
post #22 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpstrand View Post

Do any receivers or pre/pro support video/audio pass through while in standby? I would LOVE this!!

Me too. I read a thread from someone who was under the impression that the Pioneer 94TXH could do it but he couldn't get it to work. He was told it only worked with certain Pioneer displays.

Which gets back to one of my earlier points, you really don't know whether an AVR is going to cleanup and simplify your system until you actually start working with it. There are a lot of things that sound good on paper, that don't really work the way you'd hope.

Like for instance, my 4308ci receiver has a zone 2 component out, but since it can't down rez from HDMI this doesn't do me a lot of good. And since the AVR only has 3 component inputs, that's not enough to run all my equipment in to.

So I can connect it to a second TV or to my DVD recorder, but without access to the HDMI inputs, it's very limited.
post #23 of 33
Thread Starter 
DVI only transfers video. If you need audio, you would run a separate connection to the receiver.

Usually DVI is only used for a connection to a TV or projector though. People usually seem to be running HDMI into their AVR, and then use an HDMI -> DVI adaptor to send just the video to a TV or projector
post #24 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

DVI only transfers video. If you need audio, you would run a separate connection to the receiver.

Usually DVI is only used for a connection to a TV or projector though. People usually seem to be running HDMI into their AVR, and then use an HDMI -> DVI adaptor to send just the video to a TV or projector

Michael,

I realize DVI is video only. My question for you is does the HDMI/DVI connection do anything to affect the True HD/ DTS HD processing of the receiver?
I am looking at the Onkyo 605 and the Panasonic BD30 they both have the needed imputs as well as the True HD/ DTS HD abilities.
But since my TV only has a DVI in does that in anyway affect what the receiver will do to the sound fields?(ie cancell them out).

Maybe I'm dense or redundant here all I need is clarity
post #25 of 33
Thread Starter 
I have never used DVI. In theory, whether you connect your TV with HDMI or DVI (using an adaptor,) your AVR audio "should" work the same. In other words, if your HDMI -> DVI doesn't run into HDCP issues, and works properly, audio should be unaffected.

I wish I could give you a more definitive answer.
post #26 of 33
Thank you very much.
post #27 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Don't most TVs have a comb filter? So the issue would be video conversion from composite to some other format without first applying comb filtering?

Yes, that would be an issue because comb filters are only applied to composite.
post #28 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I used a narrower defintion of video processing than you did. The ability of an AVR to act as a hub for your audio/video needs is important to me as well. I remember buying a receiver with component inputs, getting it home, and then realizing it would not upscale to component video. I had thought it was going to eliminate the need to switch video from my TV.

It's even harder now to determine exactly how an AVR implements it's feature set.


Not knowing a lot about consumer displays I have a question do they need to have there scaling engine bypassed in order for it to not do anything? In our larger display devices like a Barco HD18 which is native 1920x1080 if you send it 1920x1080 it still goes through the PMP (there scaler) and even thou it does not do much there is still something being done and delay being added. In order to avoid this there is a native option that bypasses the PMP so my question is do consumer LCD's, Plasma's and projectors have the ability to do this?

Thanks
JT
post #29 of 33
Thread Starter 
I don't know. It's unclear on a product by product basis what processing displays do when sent their native resolution. Clearly they do some processing, because there are adjustments to brightness, contrast etc.

Beyond that, I can't say

My plasma TV has no scaling related settings.
post #30 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I don't know. It's unclear on a product by product basis what processing displays do when sent their native resolution. Clearly they do some processing, because there are adjustments to brightness, contrast etc.

Beyond that, I can't say

My plasma TV has no scaling related settings.

That is my worry no matter how good a processor I get if it is then re-scaled by my LCD it could look worse than just letting the TV do the scaling.
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