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All you 1080p fans beware! Hail to the 768p Plasma King Baby! - Page 5

post #121 of 319
1/18/08 at 10:37am
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I also was hoping others would read the review and provide feedback.

Man you are way too smart for me! I better not post any more.
I'll go and read all the other 1080P vs. 720 threads and all the other countless threads about the more expensive Pioneer being a better tv. (your MSRPs are off btw).

I think I'll go start a thread saying my Anthem is so much better than other people HTIBs and proclaim who the King is. Maybe "eggpants" can help me tell HTIB owners they're stupid for not buying more expensive electronics.

Off to the Mototrend forum to tell all the Honda owners how dumb they are....
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post #122 of 319
1/18/08 at 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PontifexMaximus View Post

The Lexus vs Kia analogy is way off by the way. The Panasonic had the same MSRP and two other tv's had $3300 MSRPs.
I also was hoping others would read the review and provide feedback.

Not that I comlpetely disagree with your point. Especially where the prices on both products are sitting right now. When some were comparing "street" prices a 5080 was 400-600 more. MSRP is one thing but actually buying one is another.

But yes you are correct. Resolution does not determine overall PQ and both displays were equally priced by the manufacturers upon release. The 5080 is a great display...but I think that has been thuroughly covered in excess in the last 7 or 8 months...as has the 1080p vs. 720p discussion...as has the Pioneer vs. Panisonic discussion.

PS. I also have the issue of HT Mag that your OP was referring to. None of the results were suprising. I think that is why people found this thread to be a bit pointless as this has been covered add nauseum.
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post #123 of 319
1/18/08 at 10:46am
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Originally Posted by Maximum7 View Post

Man you are way too smart for me! I better not post any more.
I'll go and read all the other 1080P vs. 720 threads and all the other countless threads about the more expensive Pioneer being a better tv. (your MSRPs are off btw).

I think I'll go start a thread saying my Anthem is so much better than other people HTIBs and proclaim who the King is. Maybe "eggpants" can help me tell HTIB owners they're stupid for not buying more expensive electronics.

Off to the Mototrend forum to tell all the Honda owners how dumb they are....

Isn't the 5080p less than Panny and Sammy's 1080p's?
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post #124 of 319
1/18/08 at 11:01am
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Originally Posted by DPowers View Post

Not that I comlpetely disagree with your point. Especially where the prices on both products are sitting right now. When some were comparing "street" prices a 5080 was 400-600 more. MSRP is one thing but actually buying one is another.

But yes you are correct. Resolution does not determine overall PQ and both displays were equally priced by the manufacturers upon release. The 5080 is a great display...but I think that has been thuroughly covered in excess in the last 7 or 8 months...as has the 1080p vs. 720p discussion...as has the Pioneer vs. Panisonic discussion.

PS. I also have the issue of HT Mag that your OP was referring to. None of the results were suprising. I think that is why people found this thread to be a bit pointless as this has been covered add nauseum.

Agree, the dead horse being kicked a few too many times.. I guess this keeps on popping up because the Kuro 5080 and other Pioneer sets keep on dropping drastically, I mean now you can find them for 2K or less. I am still torn between this set and the XBR4/5.
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post #125 of 319
1/18/08 at 11:07am
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.IF THEY WERE CHEAPER AND THE SAME QUALITY EVERYONE WOULD BUY ONE! Isn't that why threads were created in anticipation of Kuro price drops? I mean if you want to pay more by all means, be my guest.

We live in a dynamic world marketplace, do you really think the world is as simple as that?

If pio dropped their prices today to panny levels, what do you think panny will do next week? There will always be a disparity because companies are not as dumb as everyone thinks they are. Panny will respond by dropping their prices since that is their strength, their extensive mfg capacity. So the price parity you want will never happen.

How come no one complains that panny's are not priced the same as vizios? couldnt they sell a billion panels if they did that?

The current pricing structure for each of the companies didnt happen in a vacum. Each will do what they think is right to make money. As many ppl like to whip out pio's quaterly results to say "AH HAA", they do suck at doing this.. well if thats true they will get to a point like fujitsu and take their ball and go home. In that case we will only have panny to kick around, and sure enough their next pz980u series or whatever will be priced higher than even kuros...

Anyway, back to the article, my only gripe is the breadth of the choices... who in their right minds had jvc lcd's on their list when they go shopping?
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post #126 of 319
1/18/08 at 12:39pm
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Originally Posted by Maximum7 View Post

I better not post any more.

Don't tease us like that.

This thread is discussing how a 720p set consistently beats the 1080p competition...to which it is COMPARABLY PRICED.

At the same time, does anyone imagine that the 1080p 5010 costs DOUBLE to build and thats why pioneer gives it DOUBLE the MSRP? Its relevant to this thread because on the balance I would say that the 5080 is by FAR the better bargain over the 5010...especially for most of us who view at 7' or more.

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I'll go and read all the other 1080P vs. 720 threads

You protest too much. I predict more posts about this thread for which you have no interest.
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post #127 of 319
1/18/08 at 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyungkim View Post

We live in a dynamic world marketplace, do you really think the world is as simple as that?

If pio dropped their prices today to panny levels, what do you think panny will do next week? There will always be a disparity because companies are not as dumb as everyone thinks they are. Panny will respond by dropping their prices since that is their strength, their extensive mfg capacity. So the price parity you want will never happen.

How come no one complains that panny's are not priced the same as vizios? couldnt they sell a billion panels if they did that?

The current pricing structure for each of the companies didnt happen in a vacum. Each will do what they think is right to make money. As many ppl like to whip out pio's quaterly results to say "AH HAA", they do suck at doing this.. well if thats true they will get to a point like fujitsu and take their ball and go home. In that case we will only have panny to kick around, and sure enough their next pz980u series or whatever will be priced higher than even kuros...

Anyway, back to the article, my only gripe is the breadth of the choices... who in their right minds had jvc lcd's on their list when they go shopping?


I must say that in my opinion that is one of the best posts I've read on this site.
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post #128 of 319
1/18/08 at 1:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike infinity View Post


I agree that the kuro has better PQ, but the price differences from Pioneer are not justifiable. They charge a premium not because of manufacturing/quality differences...but because people are willing to pay.

Don't agree. They charge a premium because they are willing to invest in their products while Panasonic hasn't in the last few years. In fact on the 75U series many feel they have taken a step backwards in their processor and PQ. Fact it, Panasonic stopped being an innovator 2 years ago and have brought their customers minimal value and improvements while Pioneer has moved forward with the Kuro.
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post #129 of 319
1/18/08 at 1:41pm
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You protest too much. I predict more posts about this thread for which you have no interest.

You're right.
But this is my last. I'm gonna go start a "hail to the king thread" citing Consumer Reports Claim that the Panasonic50"700 is the best tv they've ever tested article.
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/02...t-ever-tested/
Just for conversation and discussion purposes of course....
Ok now give me a minute to start it...
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post #130 of 319
1/18/08 at 2:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximum7 View Post


http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/02...t-ever-tested/

I hadn't seen that yet. Thanks.
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post #131 of 319
1/18/08 at 2:04pm
Is 1080 still a larger number than 720?

Are the 480 worshipers at the DVD forum smarter than the 720 and 1080 worshipers at this forum?
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post #132 of 319
1/18/08 at 2:23pm
the cold hard truth is that for MANY people in this country paying $5000 for a nice tv might as well be paying $13. That's just a fact. There are a ton of extremely rich people in the US, and many others are becoming very rich every single day. Maybe it's time people thought about this fact also when discussing how much this stuff costs.
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post #133 of 319
1/18/08 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

Don't agree. They charge a premium because they are willing to invest in their products while Panasonic hasn't in the last few years. In fact on the 75U series many feel they have taken a step backwards in their processor and PQ. Fact it, Panasonic stopped being an innovator 2 years ago and have brought their customers minimal value and improvements while Pioneer has moved forward with the Kuro.

After watching the Panasonic (matte) display I must agree. I am not saying "everyone" thinks a Kuro is worth the extra dough, but to say purely as fact that "its not worth it" is just as stupid.
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post #134 of 319
1/18/08 at 2:34pm
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Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

After watching the Panasonic (matte) display I must agree. I am not saying "everyone" thinks a Kuro is worth the extra dough, but to say purely as fact that "its not worth it" is just as stupid.

I have often regretted not buying what I really wanted and ended up buying the upgrade on the second pass. Just depends on the how much more someone is willing to spend.
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post #135 of 319
1/18/08 at 2:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

I have often regretted not buying what I really wanted and ended up buying the upgrade on the second pass. Just depends on the how much more someone is willing to spend.

Agreed. Sure, you have to be an enthusiast probably to appreciate it. But I mean, if we start playing this 'value' game, I can state that anything that costs more than a "Vizio" is not worth it.

Difference is that is I say that is a 'totally subjective statement'. Why people make debates whether not something is "worth it" and put an absolute opinion on it never makes any sense to me. Cash flows are different, tastes are different, personalities are different, viewing situations are different, viewing material is different...

If you want to pay 'extra' for 'extra' that is totally a case by case call.
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post #136 of 319
1/18/08 at 3:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

Don't agree. They charge a premium because they are willing to invest in their products

So you really believe the 5010 costs pioneer DOUBLE in manufacturing, all other things being equal to the 5080?

Pioneer is like everybody else. They charge what the market will bear. Do they make the best plasma? Yes. Therefore they charge a premium WAY over bottom line differences. It works because consumers are willing to pay. If they weren't, they would lower the price and still make profit.
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post #137 of 319
1/18/08 at 3:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

If you want to pay 'extra' for 'extra' that is totally a case by case call.

Thats obvious.

Nevertheless, forums like these are the place where people come to weigh their options and decide (in some cases) whether they are getting the best bang for the buck. People that come here are doing their homework...or have done their homework and are sharing that experience.

That means its a good thing for posters to share their rationale and critique the rationale of others here.

Sure in the end its always a subjective call....but thats not the point. If you are going to claim that thanks to subjectivity we shouldn't discuss judgment calls here then you might as well say that the AVS forum should just shut down.

...back to the subject at hand. If the new panny's compete with the 8g kuro for PQ then you can be sure pio will cut their prices...and still make a profit on the 5010.
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post #138 of 319
1/18/08 at 3:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike infinity View Post

So you really believe the 5010 costs pioneer DOUBLE in manufacturing, all other things being equal to the 5080?

Pioneer is like everybody else. They charge what the market will bear. Do they make the best plasma? Yes. Therefore they charge a premium WAY over bottom line differences. It works because consumers are willing to pay. If they weren't, they would lower the price and still make profit.

When did I ever mention manufacturing costs? Pioneer has invested in innovation and is charging a premium for that. What they charge for that premium is their business. You need to decide if the price is worth that premium
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post #139 of 319
1/18/08 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

When did I ever mention manufacturing costs?

I said the differences in price aren't due to manufacturing (ie bottom line) costs.

You quoted this and said 'don't agree'.

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Pioneer has invested in innovation and is charging a premium for that.

If you mean that the premium is to offset bottom line cost differences compared to other panels, then please give details other than vague and ambiguous generalities like 'invested in innovation'. That would make for an informative discussion.

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What they charge for that premium is their business.

And why isn't it the business of discussions like these? I personally think that discussions on the marketing policies and price points of the products are very relevant in comparison threads like these.

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You need to decide if the price is worth that premium

Thats what we are doing....which means airing our opinions. You can keep saying its a subjective call if you like...but stating the obvious isn't much of a contribution.
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post #140 of 319
1/18/08 at 4:19pm
This thread sucks, PDP-5080HD is hands down the performance AND value winner... nobody needs 1080p with a 50" display unless they watch TV with their nose on the glass like boog in open season.

I have the $5k for an elite, but i'm 10x happier with how much i'm getting for 2k$
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post #141 of 319
1/18/08 at 8:21pm
I've always thought that half the people who post here in favor of whatever is inferior that is being discussed aren't people that don't know anything

Or people who are challenged by the cost of things

They're just plants for the video display Industry that will always have a vested interest in getting people to buy what is inferior as long as it leads to higher profits.

Large video Display companies aren't stupid--if advertising can manipulate don't think that the thought of manipulating forums like this is unknown to them.
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post #142 of 319
1/18/08 at 8:43pm
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Originally Posted by boostfrenzy View Post

This thread sucks, PDP-5080HD is hands down the performance AND value winner

Actually thats why I like this thread...because it is demonstrating just that.

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I have the $5k for an elite, but i'm 10x happier with how much i'm getting for 2k$

Thats it exactly.

We get all the 'innovation' of kuro in the 5080. And despite the relatively minor (almost non-existent for average viewing distances) PQ improvement of 1080p, pioneer prices the 5010 right out of the ballpark.

I can't fathom how anyone can conclude that thanks to the innovation of Pioneer, the 1080p kuro is worth exactly double the 768p kuro.

In the meantime, the 5080 which has all the substantive innovation in the kuro series is now priced VERY COMPETITIVELY.

My point? Pioneer isn't charging a premium for the innovations of kuro. You can get all that in the 5080 for $2k. They are, on the other hand, charging an absurd premium for ONE single feature of marginal benefit on a 50" set: 1080p.
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post #143 of 319
1/18/08 at 8:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

--if advertising can manipulate don't think that the thought of manipulating forums like this is unknown to them.

If pioneer is listening:

PM me and send me along one of those 60" new concept kuros. I will happily manipulate the forums in return (under a new name of course, now that my secret is out).
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post #144 of 319
1/18/08 at 9:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Is 1080 still a larger number than 720?

And?
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post #145 of 319
1/18/08 at 10:22pm
wow i read all these post some are pointless to say the least well everyone is saying how cheap the pioneer PDP-5080 is going for on bestbuy, and quite suprsingly i saw on slick deals today and the post date 12-18-07 had it for under 1900 and now im seeing that some of you guys are saying its going to be cheap and i cant find the flyer!.....

basicly i want to see whats the lowest i can get it and if its worth jumping from a panasonic Th-42px75u to a pioneer PDP-5080

i did see a diffrence as said before 3500 msrp was alot now its more reasonable but to me it feels as 2500 is too much for the quality between both.... so is under 1900 still possible or is that gone? and how this upcoming promo going to help? please i would aprciate it if a pm of price and or link is available much apriciated thanks.....

i dont think 1080p is worth 1k more tho
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post #146 of 319
1/18/08 at 10:23pm
After spending waaaay too much time on these boards trying to decide between the Kuro 5080, the 52XBR4, and the 5271F... I pulled the trigger on the Kuro tonight. The price drop at BB made it too tasty a prospect.

The salesman at BB was dressed as a Magnolia worker, and explained that the current sales price on the Pioneer ends tomorrow. Not sure if he was blowing smoke... but gained my trust when he accepted my 12% reward members coupon and applied it to the already discounted unit.

It was a really hard decision to make. After reading all of SharpJunkie's older research on the LCD's I was almost going to drop the $$ on the Sammy, but I held off a touch longer since I play a lot of video games and have been worried about the possible TBE and smearing / ghosting on LCD's.

Looking forward to my post break-in period.

Thank you all for your extensive and thankless research and passion.
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post #147 of 319
1/19/08 at 4:40am
You won't regret buying the 5080.
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post #148 of 319
1/19/08 at 5:03am
For all the 720p worshipers answer me this: at what EXACT resolution does one enter into Video Nirvana?

Is it 480p, 500p, 719p, 720p?

Would Nirvana cease to exist if one got to a 722p resolution or 800p, or 900p?

Did anyone at MIT calculate that ONLY at 720p would everything be MAXIMIZED?

If there wasn't a 720p resolution being produced would there be video engineer who would say to themselves--If only they had chosen to use 720p that the video world would be perfect?

Does anyone know that at the DVD forum there are people who swear that 480p is all that you need?

Pr that when DVDs first came out that there were some that even advocated that 240 was all that you needed?

And that back when plasmas were EDTV that people would swear that 480p was all that you needed?

And that there have always been people who claim that the human eye is not capable of seeing anything more than the resolution that they're trying to promote?

Do you think that the creator designed the human eye to see Earthly reality in 720p?

And can anyone argue the concept that sitting at the perfect distance from a 720p display just isn't as enveloping as sitting at the perfect distance from a 1080p display that is LARGER?

People would make that claim for 720p versus 480p with a LARGER display--why does that not hold for 1080p versus 720p if the display is not also LARGER?

And what about 1440p?

It is a perfect multiple of 720p!

Say you sit VERY close to it and the display is MASSIVE are you really going to tell me that 1080p and 720p are bettter?

Look folks--the whole point of the ENVELOPING experience of having a LARGER display is because of DEPTH!

If it weren't true then you could skip all the big displays--make video come through glasses one-inch from the eyes--and you wouldn't need a high resolution.

The last time I checked people weren't saying--Golly GEE I wish I had a SMALL display the size of my computer display because the HOME THEATER experience is much greater with that than anything LARGER!

Now if one wants to factor in cost 720p can be a good choice.

If one is space limited and can't sit close to a 1080p display that isn't LARGE enough I can understand that argument.

But for the life of me I don't think that the intention of HIGH DEFINITION was to reach the state of 720p NIRVANA!

Years from now when there is a choice between 1080p and ANY resolution that is higher or when movie theaters actually do display movies in a resolution that is HIGHER than film on IMAX sized massive screens will the 720p worshipers form a picket line in front of them to get people to not watch them?

Who knows--maybe years from now the sons and daughters of 720p worshipers and the grandsons and grandaughters of 480p worshipers will grow up to be mature 1080p worshipers!

And they'll fight 1440p with all of their being--AS LONG AS there are 1080p displays being SOLD!

For all the true video afficiandos out there come along with me and DARE to dream the impossible DREAM--that there really are useful resolutions beyond 720p!
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post #149 of 319
1/19/08 at 9:53am
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Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

For all the 720p worshipers answer me this: at what EXACT resolution does one enter into Video Nirvana?

The 720p worshippers will say 720p. Of course they are biased because they worship that particular resolution.

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Does anyone know that at the DVD forum there are people who swear that 480p is all that you need?

That is all you need when you watch a DVD. Nevertheless, they should not be swearing.

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Pr that when DVDs first came out that there were some that even advocated that 240 was all that you needed?

They would have said 480i was all you needed. It was when 480i came out that everyone said that 240 was all you needed (200 after overscan).

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And that there have always been people who claim that the human eye is not capable of seeing anything more than the resolution that they're trying to promote?

It depends on how far you are from your resolution box.

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Do you think that the creator designed the human eye to see Earthly reality in 720p?

Yes. Somewhere after 'let there be light' there was 'let 720p be indistinguishable from 1080p at 8 feet or more'.

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And can anyone argue the concept that sitting at the perfect distance from a 720p display just isn't as enveloping as sitting at the perfect distance from a 1080p display that is LARGER?

Anyone can argue, but who would anyone argue with?

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And what about 1440p?

It is a perfect multiple of 720p!

2 isn't perfect. 3 is perfect. We should wait for 2160p

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Say you sit VERY close to it and the display is MASSIVE are you really going to tell me that 1080p and 720p are bettter?

Depends how massive is massive and how close is VERY close. My 768p 12" laptop screen looks much sharper than my 50" 768p kuro at 2 inches, for example...and I can't get either to focus.

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If one is space limited and can't sit close to a 1080p display that isn't LARGE enough I can understand that argument.

If you are space limited then you have no choice but to sit close.

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But for the life of me I don't think that the intention of HIGH DEFINITION was to reach the state of 720p NIRVANA!

Given available media...it will be nirvana for a long while yet.

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will the 720p worshipers form a picket line in front of them to get people to not watch them?

No, they'll watch on their 720p 50" set and not see a difference at 8ft. Then they'll invite all those 50" 2160p owners over and they won't see a difference either. They they'll say 'see? What'd I tell ya?'

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Who knows--maybe years from now the sons and daughters of 720p worshipers and the grandsons and grandaughters of 480p worshipers will grow up to be mature 1080p worshipers!

And risk excommunication?

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For all the true video afficiandos out there come along with me and DARE to dream the impossible DREAM--that there really are useful resolutions beyond 720p!

Aren't there rules against sacrilege on this forum?

PS: very entertaining Artwood.
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post #150 of 319
1/19/08 at 9:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

For all the 720p worshipers answer me this: at what EXACT resolution does one enter into Video Nirvana?

Is it 480p, 500p, 719p, 720p?

Would Nirvana cease to exist if one got to a 722p resolution or 800p, or 900p?

Did anyone at MIT calculate that ONLY at 720p would everything be MAXIMIZED?

If there wasn't a 720p resolution being produced would there be video engineer who would say to themselves--If only they had chosen to use 720p that the video world would be perfect?

Does anyone know that at the DVD forum there are people who swear that 480p is all that you need?

Pr that when DVDs first came out that there were some that even advocated that 240 was all that you needed?

And that back when plasmas were EDTV that people would swear that 480p was all that you needed?

And that there have always been people who claim that the human eye is not capable of seeing anything more than the resolution that they're trying to promote?

Do you think that the creator designed the human eye to see Earthly reality in 720p?

And can anyone argue the concept that sitting at the perfect distance from a 720p display just isn't as enveloping as sitting at the perfect distance from a 1080p display that is LARGER?

People would make that claim for 720p versus 480p with a LARGER display--why does that not hold for 1080p versus 720p if the display is not also LARGER?

And what about 1440p?

It is a perfect multiple of 720p!

Say you sit VERY close to it and the display is MASSIVE are you really going to tell me that 1080p and 720p are bettter?

Look folks--the whole point of the ENVELOPING experience of having a LARGER display is because of DEPTH!

If it weren't true then you could skip all the big displays--make video come through glasses one-inch from the eyes--and you wouldn't need a high resolution.

The last time I checked people weren't saying--Golly GEE I wish I had a SMALL display the size of my computer display because the HOME THEATER experience is much greater with that than anything LARGER!

Now if one wants to factor in cost 720p can be a good choice.

If one is space limited and can't sit close to a 1080p display that isn't LARGE enough I can understand that argument.

But for the life of me I don't think that the intention of HIGH DEFINITION was to reach the state of 720p NIRVANA!

Years from now when there is a choice between 1080p and ANY resolution that is higher or when movie theaters actually do display movies in a resolution that is HIGHER than film on IMAX sized massive screens will the 720p worshipers form a picket line in front of them to get people to not watch them?

Who knows--maybe years from now the sons and daughters of 720p worshipers and the grandsons and grandaughters of 480p worshipers will grow up to be mature 1080p worshipers!

And they'll fight 1440p with all of their being--AS LONG AS there are 1080p displays being SOLD!

For all the true video afficiandos out there come along with me and DARE to dream the impossible DREAM--that there really are useful resolutions beyond 720p!

Just answer me one question if you can....is there a better looking(non Pioneer) 1080p than the 768p kuro's?
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