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why am i not impressed more? - Page 2  

post #31 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkfan View Post

I could tell the difference. I guess I'm not an audiophile like some here, but I could hear a difference when I didn't expect to. I did use heavier gauge wires all around just to be on the safe side. If that's what made a difference, i'm not sure, but it did sound different.

What we all don't need is yet another wire war so Hawkfan, I don't believe that anybody argues that you heard or believe you heard a difference. The crux of the argument is "why" you heard or think you heard a differece. Is is very possible, in fact almost a certainty, that the reason you heard or believed you heard a difference actually had nothing to do with the wire at all.
post #32 of 147
Go to AIXrecords.com, purchase on of their CD's and see if you can hear a difference, between gear and source. You might be surprised.
db
post #33 of 147
I knew from the begining that an audio section on the AVS forum who deals mostly with video and digital gadgets would be a failure. Too many people are happy here with their MP3 players to notice any difference with a cd player much less between cd players. So here is my conclusion, and advise based on what I have been reading here for the last few months.

Run to your nearest Flea Market and Get a Discman, then visit a Dollar store and get your interconnects, then rush to your nearest Best Buy and get you a nice I-POD, then since you are already there buy the latest receiver from Insignia which delivers "700" watts of power, (you know the kind of receiver that sounds just like separates), and don't forget the high end Sony speakers for sale with the yellow drivers...Wow those are pretty. You can get all this done for about $500.00. Once you buy those and an AVS member asks about a $10,000 equipment investment , go back and marvel at the fact that you have save youself $9,500.00 and enjoy the same sound reproduction that this ill informed audio enthusiast has been subjected to.

One last and very important piece of information that has been kept a secret for a very long time but has only recently been discovered....Out of the 7,417 posts that PULLIAMM has posted on the AVS forums; 7400 of them were to say that all cd players sound the same. No wonder He hears no difference, the keyboard noise is music to his ears.
post #34 of 147
In spite of the sarcasm, there is some truth in your suggestion. Making bad choices like Sony speakers will not result in a decent system, but one can get fantastic performance at a very reasonable price. My $1600 MSRP setup certainly rivals any 2.0 system out there.
post #35 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

In spite of the sarcasm, there is some truth in your suggestion. Making bad choices like Sony speakers will not result in a decent system, but one can get fantastic performance at a very reasonable price. My $1600 MSRP setup certainly rivals any 2.0 system out there.

I agree you can get good sound if you make smart choices, but it was a joke PULLIAMM.
post #36 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by atdamico View Post

What we all don't need is yet another wire war so Hawkfan, I don't believe that anybody argues that you heard or believe you heard a difference. The crux of the argument is "why" you heard or think you heard a differece. Is is very possible, in fact almost a certainty, that the reason you heard or believed you heard a difference actually had nothing to do with the wire at all.

I certainly don't want to start anything here. I have a very "budget" oriented system with an Oppo 981, Onkyo A9555, and some DIY MTMs designed by Jon Marsh at HTguide.com. I'm not some elitist that believes in having the most expensive of everything. I'm very performance oriented when it comes to audio. I'd never pay the amounts I see paid for CDPs, speakers, or interconnects around here. I see people go back and forth about what they "hear" and "don't hear" at certain price points and I tend to believe in the law of diminishing returns more than anything. I'm actually an electronics tech, so I tend to go with the hard science behind electronics, cabling, etc. But with all that said, I heard a difference. It is what it is.
post #37 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkfan View Post

I certainly don't want to start anything here. I have a very "budget" oriented system with an Oppo 981, Onkyo A9555, and some DIY MTMs designed by Jon Marsh at HTguide.com. I'm not some elitist that believes in having the most expensive of everything. I'm very performance oriented when it comes to audio. I'd never pay the amounts I see paid for CDPs, speakers, or interconnects around here. I see people go back and forth about what they "hear" and "don't hear" at certain price points and I tend to believe in the law of diminishing returns more than anything. I'm actually an electronics tech, so I tend to go with the hard science behind electronics, cabling, etc. But with all that said, I heard a difference. It is what it is.

If you heard a difference with the cable/s, then that's all that matters. I'd suggest though to keep it to yourself as you might get a tad of criticism and questions.
post #38 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by luismanrara View Post

I agree you can get good sound if you make smart choices, but it was a joke PULLIAMM.

I know it was a joke. Tht's why I started with "in spite of the sarcasm".
post #39 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poundhound View Post

i can notice a slightly fuller sound, more engaging vocals, and a smoother top end than my other player, but it is not a night and day difference.

Honestly, the differences you have noticed are all you can expect. In addition, I would not encourage you to upgrade an already great pair of speakers. Perhaps, some well designed room treaments could work.

Mike
post #40 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rdrcr View Post

Honestly, the differences you have noticed are all you can expect. In addition, I would not encourage you to upgrade an already great pair of speakers. Perhaps, some well designed room treaments could work.

Mike

The differences he has noticed are more than enough to justify his purchase.

Welcome to the hobby.
post #41 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by luismanrara View Post

The differences he has noticed are more than enough to justify his purchase.

Welcome to the hobby.

In your opinion or his?

It would seem to me if he is questioning it, or was expecting more, the justification is uncertain. Only he can answer that for him.
post #42 of 147
Deleted.....Someone else asked the ? already.
post #43 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by atdamico View Post

Assuming same guage, no.

Interconnects and gauge size? Don't think so. Even with speaker cables, comparable is enough, 12ga vs 16ga.
post #44 of 147
"QUOTE=whoaru99;12828435]In your opinion or his?"

He started this thread with an open question, you gave him your opinion, and I gave him mine, niether is worth more than the other.

At the end only the OP will make the desicion if he keeps the cd player or not, but don't forget he was asking for help therefore the existence of this thread.

"It would seem to me if he is questioning it, or was expecting more, the justification is uncertain. Only he can answer that for him.[/quote]"

Anybody expecting huge differences from one particular player or amp to another will almost always be disapointed. I am only pointing out that he heard not one but three improvements with the new player, if that is not enough to upgrade then what is? He was looking for better sound and he found it, how Am I supposed to desiffer for him if it's woth it or not, I can only say to him that if it was me I would keep it.

In respect to the subject of the improvements being worth compared to the money invested on the new player? It is very simple, if your goal is to improve the reproduction of sound everytime you upgrade it is always worth it. If you feel the sound of the older player was good enough and you can live with it, stick with it. If that is the case, one might ask, what propmted you to get a new player in the first place? Maybe it is not the cd player but your amp, or speakers where the fault lies.
post #45 of 147
I agree with you for the most part.

The part I disagree with is the value of an improvement because I think more, rather than fewer, people reasonably (or perhaps unreasonably?) expect quite a bit of improvement from spending say 50%, 100%, 200%, or more on something like a CD player.

Then, they are disappointed to find out that the differences really aren't all that great. And, all the hype about CD players and electronics in general amount to subtle differences for the most part, at relatively high incremental cost.

I tried the famous Benchmark DAC-1 because I was looking for an improvement and, generally, I agree that it did make some improvement depending on the basis of comparison. However, the amount of improvement it made, overall, wasn't worth the price of admission to me. I don't fault the device, just not big enough difference for me to justify $1K on it.

At the end of the day, it's really hard to speak to any of it because we all have differences in expendable income and differences in expectations from those expenditures.
post #46 of 147
If I read it correctly, he was using both devices as transports which fed the DAC in the receiver.
post #47 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

If I read it correctly, he was using both devices as transports which fed the DAC in the receiver.

In this case the differences will be much more difficult to hear.
post #48 of 147
Thread Starter 
no guys, i only used the universal player as a transport. the apollo i hooked it up using an older, inexpensive, and i do believe non-shielded rca interconnect.
i really do appreciate the responses here in this thread to my wonderings. it gives me new perspectives to draw from.
jeepers, you know, on a couple songs this weekend i listened to, i thought i preferred the sound of my pioneer dvd player. that freaked me out a little. i believe it is turning out that i am getting a less harsh or fatigueing sound out of the apollo though.
i'm new to this and did not realize i would be looking for such subtle differences. last night i grabbed a couple of cd's with the same song on them. one was the regular album and one was a greatest hits compilation of the same artist with that same song. i'll be damned if i didn't here a difference while swithing inputs from the remote, back and forth. my only question is...could they have did something different to these songs to change their sonic nature in the studio or production process? or should they be the same? i saw nothing pointing to changes in the liner notes...
post #49 of 147
Poundhound: You can't assume anything about songs on different disks. Might be the sme mix/master, or it might not.
post #50 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poundhound View Post

no guys, i only used the universal player as a transport. the apollo i hooked it up using an older, inexpensive, and i do believe non-shielded rca interconnect.
i really do appreciate the responses here in this thread to my wonderings. it gives me new perspectives to draw from.
jeepers, you know, on a couple songs this weekend i listened to, i thought i preferred the sound of my pioneer dvd player. that freaked me out a little. i believe it is turning out that i am getting a less harsh or fatigueing sound out of the apollo though.
i'm new to this and did not realize i would be looking for such subtle differences. last night i grabbed a couple of cd's with the same song on them. one was the regular album and one was a greatest hits compilation of the same artist with that same song. i'll be damned if i didn't here a difference while swithing inputs from the remote, back and forth. my only question is...could they have did something different to these songs to change their sonic nature in the studio or production process? or should they be the same? i saw nothing pointing to changes in the liner notes...

Perhaps the two CD's were mastered at a different signal level. Even a 3db change in recording level can alter the sound that you perceive, you must really do level matching between components...and source material...if you are trying to do a scientific comparison. If you are just subjectively comparing, then buy the one that sounds the best and costs the less, you'll be happy.

I have an old Music Hall MMV CD25 and I still think it's the best CD player I've ever heard, best 300.00 I've ever spent. Is it the best CD player ever made, absolutely not, but it looks great with the massive aluminum front panel and sounds great with a nice DAC. In fact, I never use the digital out on it; I think the built in DAC is better than any pre/pro/receiver I've heard, including the Benchmark DAC-1.
post #51 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

It doesn't sound much better because cheap DVD players already achieve the best possible sound quality from CDs, leaving no room for improvement.

I have a cheap Toshiba dvd player and an old Sony 5 disc changer that would show you otherwise. (Sony sounds better)
post #52 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poundhound View Post

so...i had my older pioneer dvd player (626) hooked up with an optical connect to my h/k avr130 to my monitor audio gs10's. it sounded great in stereo. just got a rega apollo and have it hooked up analog to the h/k and it is hard to tell the difference between the two players! the apollo does sound a shade smoother overall, but i think there should be a bigger diffference. due to not having a proper interconnect, i an using a $2.99 one for now (i know, i know). please tell me this is why my sound is not as good as it should be! maybe the cdp is not run in enough? maybe it's my receiver? all speculations welcome!...thanks.

Recently I opened the Pandoras box of upgrading my audio components. I realized that my old Yam CDC615 didnt sound very good anymore when I upgraded my speakers to Maggie MG12. So, I changed the interconnect from Kimber kable PBJ (not expecting any difference I just like uniformity) to Canare GS6. There was most certainly an improvent in overall clarity. I discovered Canare Cables from an old employer that asserted that most high end audio beliefs was just audio voodoo mumbo jumbo (unfortunately lots of that going around but the truth is there are differing levels of performance out there). However, the one thing that he did say was that studios are mostly wired up with Canare and live shows mostly use Canare. If the the music was produced with components connected with this wire, then my system was gonna use this wire. For roughly $20 I would suggest that you will experience a greater improvement in sound from your new player.

Most improvements that I have encountered are not in leaps and bounds, however they are more noticable than subtle.

Now when you finally get all the best high end gear that will sound great, there are two major problems that I have. First, I do not have an accurate reference of what the original sound was. Second, the mastering/studio engineers screw around with the recording so much that what is on the cd is not really how the musicians played. Vanity of vanities, all is vanity.

PS. Canare Star Quad speaker wire is not meant to be bi wired.
post #53 of 147
If most hi-end beliefs are mumbo jumbo, then why was there a difference between the Canare and Kimber?
post #54 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

If most hi-end beliefs are mumbo jumbo, then why was there a difference between the Canare and Kimber?

My,my. What a kinder, more gentle place this has become since the mod shut down a few threads

I remember the days when a post that one wire sounded different than another evoked a veritable sh**storm.

But, Drecar, can you offer any explanation as to why wire from Canare would sound different than wire from Kimber?
post #55 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by atdamico View Post

My,my. What a kinder, more gentle place this has become since the mod shut down a few threads

I remember the days when a post that one wire sounded different than another evoked a veritable sh**storm.

But, Drecar, can you offer any explanation as to why wire from Canare would sound different than wire from Kimber?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

If most hi-end beliefs are mumbo jumbo, then why was there a difference between the Canare and Kimber?

16 yrs ago when this happened, I just remember there was a difference. Sorry, I dont have any reasons, just that it was different.

If wire can have an impact to the sound, then to me using the wire the creators of music used made sense(If I wanted to be as close to reproducing the original sound). Canare is a top quality product any how at a very reasonable price. I saw fit to replace the more expensive Kimber and Monster with it.

Recently, I ordered more GS6. In the last few weeks when I replaced the last of my Kimber, I wasn't expecting to hear any difference. Well, I did. It seemed to me over all clarity improved. My final position on wire is that all do not sound the same and they are more similar than dis-similar. Wow it took me 16yrs to get around to changing all my wire.
post #56 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mozvz View Post

It's better to just provide your opinion and let the original poster find his own truth.

That phrase just irritates me.

If the listener mistakenly thinks two things sound different, or the same, that's not a 'truth'. It's a mistake.
post #57 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by drecar View Post

16 yrs ago when this happened, I just remember there was a difference. Sorry, I dont have any reasons, just that it was different.

If wire can have an impact to the sound, then to me using the wire the creators of music used made sense(If I wanted to be as close to reproducing the original sound). Canare is a top quality product any how at a very reasonable price. I saw fit to replace the more expensive Kimber and Monster with it.

Recently, I ordered more GS6. In the last few weeks when I replaced the last of my Kimber, I wasn't expecting to hear any difference. Well, I did. It seemed to me over all clarity improved. My final position on wire is that all do not sound the same and they are more similar than dis-similar. Wow it took me 16yrs to get around to changing all my wire.

If you have spent any time on this site at all you will know that in the past a post like this would have started a huge argument.

I have changed out cables dozens of times over the course of the last 20-30 years. I have tried everything from aftermarket power cords, to bi-wiring, to monster, to Goertz, to you name it. I have used cheap cables, expensive cables on everything from my guitar amps, to guitar cords, to speaker cable and inter-connects in both my HT system and two channel music systems. I have spent a considerable time in recording studios, and actually was a roadie/engineer for several bands many many years ago. But I have to say I have never heard any difference in cable regardless of what I used or heard. This would seem to jibe with the many, in depth, posts that the "scientists" have posted. This has led me to believe, perhaps incorrectly that, given quality construction, there is no difference in SQ between cables. Consequently, I am always open minded when somebody comes along and posts that they heard differences. My goal is not to challange, when the statement is made, but to question as to what the differences are and why. Your answer is generally what has been posted. No reason, no explanation, just a simple: "I hear one"

Perhaps someday, someone will come along that can actually answer the question as to why, exactly, such differences exist beyond anecdotal evidence.
post #58 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

It doesn't sound much better because cheap DVD players already achieve the best possible sound quality from CDs, leaving no room for improvement.


Pulliam, I'm as 'objectivist' as they get, but you keep making blanket claims where qualification is required. Any given DVD player (or CD player) may or may not achieve the 'best possible sound' from CDs. A well-designed one should, but they're not all well-designed. So try to learn to use the word 'likely'.
post #59 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by luismanrara View Post

I knew from the begining that an audio section on the AVS forum who deals mostly with video and digital gadgets would be a failure. Too many people are happy here with their MP3 players to notice any difference with a cd player much less between cd players.

Ever done an ABX comparison of a good mp3 to its source? You might be shocked at the result.
post #60 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Pulliam, I'm as 'objectivist' as they get, but you keep making blanket claims where qualification is required. Any given DVD player (or CD player) may or may not achieve the 'best possible sound' from CDs. A well-designed one should, but they're not all well-designed. So try to learn to use the word 'likely'.

In case you missed it in one of the locked threads, Pulliamm has been suspended by the mods from this site. So you won't get an answer
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