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Whole House Surge Protector - Page 3

post #61 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

My research indicates its a good idea to find the technical someone whose company isn't selling the product - that there's a lot of fudging going on in the industry.


I agree with you completely. I do not want to assume that the person I recommended will work best for you. But I can tell you I met him at a facility that has nothing to do with home electronics bidding on a job to help maintain power for automated machines. HT stuff is certainly not his fortay but he is excellent at helping to discuss electricity and how to best help you. For frame of reference he is the president of the company, not a sales guy.
post #62 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme View Post

If your work for a company that sells the product, then yes, you are indeed trolling. I won't argue with you, it's a waste of time. To gain credibility with me, show me some FACTS rather than coming on here and spouting off about how something improves your life (or electronics) and I might believe you.


I run a boat manufacturing facility in Florida. I in no way sell any sort of products that I mentioned.

Steve, I have better things to do than be blasted because I do not share the exact opinion of somebody else. If I can assist you in any other way feel free to send me a PM and I would be glad to try and help.
post #63 of 220
Thread Starter 
Thanks to AV Doogie, I just spent a half hour talking to a long time power quality engineer out of Chicago. He gave me the following info:

Important for TVSS device to work well to have low path to ground. Check with town/city water service engineer re whether copper pipe, not PVC, comes into home. If so, then check if house ground tied to copper pipe. By far the very best ground. In dry soil, copper ground rod won't do much. His son lives in Phoenix and they checked and took care of his ground and TVSS. Unfortunately some cities/towns use PVC to bring in water, not copper.

He has seen lotsa poor TVSS in industry and hospitals. He's even seen where the problems the hospital had with MRIs all led back to power problems which they were able to remedy.

Has used Innovative Technology for years and years, always recommends it. Back in mid to late 80's, he worked with Ford Motor Company, and they did a study of 48 TVSS devices and the only one they liked was Innovative Technology.

Says lots of misinfo and lots of marketed TVSS may meet minimal standards but will not work consistently over the years like Innovative Technology.

http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Market...TVSS/index.htm
Says Sycom TVSS not very good in his opinion. Same with Leviton. Units simply will be sacrificial and not last over years and years.

Recommends I use a TVSS on incoming 400 amp line, then on incoming line at each power panel box, for best protection.

Re lightning arrestor, with a lightning rod this can be helpful, but highly overrated - generally if limited funds best to spend $$ on TVSS, including on incoming phone and cable lines.

He is a distributor for Innovative Technology, given that he recommends them on his projects although if the principal decides on something else he'll install that. He said I should contact their Phoenix area distributor.
Also, he will be glad to give me instructions so I or someone else (like my Handyman) can install the whole house surge suppressors properly - he laughs how so many electricians aren't even familiar with this stuff and how they can do improper installation (I've already had that impression checking with some local electricians on this). He has instructed at many seminars on this and the degree of lack of knowledge or interest by alleged professionals, especially electricians, is amazing.

Though I don't think he's met Curt.
post #64 of 220
I wasn't able to find any IEEE protocols that the IT units are tested under. Nor do they indicate what method they use to shunt the surge.
Err...I meant EP. Eaton is a reputable outfit.
post #65 of 220
Thread Starter 
Heres' Eaton's Guide to Surge Suppression:

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/publ...a01005003e.pdf

Here's info from that guide re Innovative Technologies:

"Innovative Technology
Since 1980, Innovative Technology products have solved the most
difficult electrical transient problems for business, industry, government
and defense sectors. Innovative Technology products and
technologies protect electrical, data, telecom circuits, and electronic
equipment from the effects of lightning-induced voltages, external
switching transients, and internally generated electrical transients.
As a part of Eaton’s electrical business since 2003, Innovative
Technology SPD products are even better positioned to deliver
state-of-the-art customer solutions. Innovative Technology products
are designed to be the most rugged and durable SPDs in the market.
Based on extensive proven field performance, Innovative Technology
was the first to offer a 20-year full replacement warranty. Electrical
engineers around the world recognize Innovative Technology as a
leader in the SPD industry. A leading research company in a survey
of over 10,000 users rated Innovative Technology No. 1 in both
product quality and service.
Innovative Technology SPD products are available in a wide range
of voltages (including voltages up to 5 kV), surge current ratings,
monitoring features and enclosure options.
For information on Eaton’s Innovative Technology products"
post #66 of 220
Thread Starter 
Notice how Eaton/Innovative Technology has WAY more info re surge suppression on their website than anwhere else I've searched on the web. Sycom and Leviton, for example, hardly have anything at all in comparison.
post #67 of 220
Thread Starter 
Ifound our local distributor for Eaton/Innovative Technology - Phoenix area distributor is here in Gilbert, where I live. He says we have good grounds in Gilbert, copper pipes for incoming water line (I am calling city to check though). Although dry at top deeper where copper is its moist enough for good ground. No need for any other exhorbitant grounding scheme. Recommends industrial TVSS units as used by Motorola locally: One 100,000 amp peak rated for the 400 amp line; Three 80,000 amp peak rates for each panel box. Discussed not needing one for my home theater panel box (isolated 100 amp transformer off of east 200 amp panel box), but I've gotta lotta gear and watts there with 5 monoblocks, three subs, etc and after hearing that we both doublethought that. Not cheap, either - about the retail of a PS Audio Premier by the time we're done for all this. He also recommended a local electrician experienced in doing this stuff to install.
I am pondering.
post #68 of 220
Steve,
I assume Bruce was able to help you. I began coordinating my PQ, power system maintenance and Electrical safety programs with his company many years ago. I was intrigued with the results of hands on testing performed in front of customers with various TVSS devices brought in by these same customers. Since seeing the IT device operation, I have no problems recommending them. I use them in my main panel as well (XT40).
post #69 of 220
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Doogie View Post

Steve,
I assume Bruce was able to help you. I began coordinating my PQ, power system maintenance and Electrical safety programs with his company many years ago. I was intrigued with the results of hands on testing performed in front of customers with various TVSS devices brought in by these same customers. Since seeing the IT device operation, I have no problems recommending them. I use them in my main panel as well (XT40).

Yes. Big help. Nice guy, too.
post #70 of 220
A pic of a Square D surge suppressor which is typical of the equipment sold for whole house surge suppression. I find the ratings hard to believe.

You will notice that this unit consists of nothing but MOV's from neutral to each leg. This was a $60 suppressor which contains $4 in parts. Typically poor let through voltage and absolutely no ring wave suppression to speak of when we tested this style.

 

SQ D SDSA.pdf 83.4208984375k . file
post #71 of 220
Thread Starter 
I am getting the TVSS whole house surge suppression stuff from my local distributor here in the Phoenix area who is giving me a big price break from what the same stuff sells for to like Motorola. I found the Eaton price list on the web and verified this, too. Here's what I'm getting - Innovative Technology (owned by Eaton):

For the 400 amp line: PTE160 for $595
For the home theater panel: PTE048 for $445

I chose not to go the extra expense of PTE048s on my other two panels, since they are not as critical, and since the PTE160 alone gives so much protection as is.

Here's the specs:

 

PTE160 Specs.PDF 382.7197265625k . file

 

PTE048 Specs.PDF 311.1904296875k . file
post #72 of 220
Looks good Steve.
post #73 of 220
Looks real good Steve.
post #74 of 220
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburnstein View Post

Looks real good Steve.

Mark, Bruce is out of Chicago area and I think he's your distributor. You should be doing this. If you want his contact info call me.

And everyone thank you to AV Doogie. He knows his stuff.
post #75 of 220
I have a TVSS in each of my 2 panels. Don't recall the brand. I'll see if I can ask my electrician about the eaton product vs what I have.
post #76 of 220
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburnstein View Post

I have a TVSS in each of my 2 panels. Don't recall the brand. I'll see if I can ask my electrician about the eaton product vs what I have.

What I have found is that hardly any electricians know anything about power quality and whole house surge protectors.

If you find out what units you have (take a look in/by your panel box, they do have labels and you can read???), e-mail me the info. If necessary, I can give you Bruce's # in Chicago and he can advise.

Its possible you have something decent. Its much more possible that you don't. Bruce had nothing good to say about the Sycom stuff.
He said Leviton was better but not near Innovative Technology.
post #77 of 220
Quote:


What I have found is that hardly any electricians know anything about power quality and whole house surge protectors.

Yes, but then they're not trained in that regard. Useful though to hook up your stuff though. Your units have sine wave tracking and do well on ring wave tests. You pay for that but it's a nice thing to have IMO.
post #78 of 220
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Yes, but then they're not trained in that regard. Useful though to hook up your stuff though. Your units have sine wave tracking and do well on ring wave tests. You pay for that but it's a nice thing to have IMO.

Isn't it amazing, Chu? After all these years I get around to "listening" to you, on something that you and Curt, who so often agree, disagree!!!!@@@
post #79 of 220
Steve, where you live, are there issues with lightning? BTW, have they banned filling pools in AZ yet?
post #80 of 220
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Steve, where you live, are there issues with lightning? BTW, have they banned filling pools in AZ yet?

Lightning striking a home is totally rare and just not an issue. But the power quality concerns over lightning strikes not hitting a home remain. And yes we do see lightning on occasion.

I haven't heard anything about banning filling pools with gravel here, have you?

Oh, you mean filling pools with H2O? Nope.
post #81 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

I am getting the TVSS whole house surge suppression stuff from my local distributor here in the Phoenix area who is giving me a big price break from what the same stuff sells for to like Motorola. I found the Eaton price list on the web and verified this, too. Here's what I'm getting - Innovative Technology (owned by Eaton):

For the 400 amp line: PTE160 for $595
For the home theater panel: PTE048 for $445

I chose not to go the extra expense of PTE048s on my other two panels, since they are not as critical, and since the PTE160 alone gives so much protection as is.

Here's the specs:


Lks like you did pretty well on those units.

You should still remember that any let through from the main suppression units above should be mitigated with some sort of suppression down stream....near your sensitive electronic equipment. If you have this covered already, then forget that I mentioned it.

P.S. Make sure your electrician installs these units with the shortest possible lead lengths. It improves the operating time of the unit and reduces the voltage gradient imposed on the unit.....reducing the let- through voltage.
post #82 of 220
AV, do you have a pix of those Innovative units? The guts, I mean? I looked at the site quickly, watched the video, but didn't see much on what the boxes consist of.

Eaton is a big electrical contractor supply manufacturer, so I'm much more likely to buy into their technology than the dinky Square D that you posted
post #83 of 220
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Doogie View Post

A pic of a Square D surge suppressor which is typical of the equipment sold for whole house surge suppression. I find the ratings hard to believe.

You will notice that this unit consists of nothing but MOV's from neutral to each leg. This was a $60 suppressor which contains $4 in parts. Typically poor let through voltage and absolutely no ring wave suppression to speak of when we tested this style.

How did Curt ever read your post and think you were recommending a Dinky Square D??????
post #84 of 220
I can try to get some pics...give me a couple weeks. Many of the IT units (the guts) are packaged in a 'sinking' compound which is supposed to improve the longevity by removing heat generated by the suppression network during operation. So, of course some of the 'guts' are not easy to see.
post #85 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

How did Curt ever read your post and think you were recommending a Dinky Square D??????

The way I read his post, I think Curt is clear about the quality of the Square D unit.
post #86 of 220
Sorry, got interrupted while typing the post. No, I didn't think AV was recommending the Square D..
post #87 of 220
Thread Starter 
The MILLION DOLLAR question is whether OB has legit whole house surge suppression in his phenomenal stereo system and his upcoming phenomenal home theater and 3 chip DLP system??????
post #88 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

The MILLION DOLLAR question is whether OB has legit whole house surge suppression in his phenomenal stereo system and his upcoming phenomenal home theater and 3 chip DLP system??????


Well Steve, I guess you will have to come visit me to find that out

BTW we are having a BAAS meeting today at my house and I will be highlighting Vladimir Lamm's new ML 3 Reference mono amps. At $139K/pair I am little nervous about a lightening storm here today which could fry these amps but as I told you Steve in my 30 years of living here in California I have never been in a lightening storm. I would say however that I have ridden out countless earthquakes and my home is well bolted down. Turning up these Gotham subs however can produce some very serious sub sonic rumble so I don't want to loosen anything from the foundation of my house. Too bad you can't be here today Steve as there are some serious AVS members attending
Dizzman
ELS
Ron Party
Jeffmac
Morbius
and we will be introducing our newest BAAS member...Health Nut who will be wearing an "I love lawyers who are anal" button
post #89 of 220
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneobgyn View Post

Well Steve, I guess you will have to come visit me to find that out

BTW we are having a BAAS meeting today at my house and I will be highlighting Vladimir Lamm's new ML 3 Reference mono amps. At $139K/pair I am little nervous about a lightening storm here today which could fry these amps but as I told you Steve in my 30 years of living here in California I have never been in a lightening storm. I would say however that I have ridden out countless earthquakes and my home is well bolted down. Turning up these Gotham subs however can produce some very serious sub sonic rumble so I don't want to loosen anything from the foundation of my house. Too bad you can't be here today Steve as there are some serious AVS members attending
Dizzman
ELS
Ron Party
Jeffmac
Morbius
and we will be introducing our newest BAAS member...Health Nut who will be wearing an "I love lawyers who are anal" button

Your answer is NO or you'd be telling us what ya got. You always do.
Seriously, I gotta do a vacation and visit.
post #90 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneobgyn View Post

Well Steve, I guess you will have to come visit me to find that out

BTW we are having a BAAS meeting today at my house and I will be highlighting Vladimir Lamm's new ML 3 Reference mono amps. At $139K/pair I am little nervous about a lightening storm here today which could fry these amps but as I told you Steve in my 30 years of living here in California I have never been in a lightening storm. I would say however that I have ridden out countless earthquakes and my home is well bolted down. Turning up these Gotham subs however can produce some very serious sub sonic rumble so I don't want to loosen anything from the foundation of my house. Too bad you can't be here today Steve as there are some serious AVS members attending
Dizzman
ELS
Ron Party
Jeffmac
Morbius
and we will be introducing our newest BAAS member...Health Nut who will be wearing an "I love lawyers who are anal" button


Tell us about the meet please.
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