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Official Classe SSP-800 thread. - Page 40

post #1171 of 5778
Quote:


There is a difference between what one prefers, and what can be proven with data, but either way, you cannot tell someone what they PREFER is wrong, because it is just that, preference!

Perfer what you want, I post information about a component/part.
post #1172 of 5778
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Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

Perfer what you want.

Awesome!
post #1173 of 5778
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Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

Congratulations sikoniko. A child brings much joy into our lives, especially in dire times such as these. I too have another on the way, we are roughly 23 weeks in at this point, so I know both your excitement, and your pain lol (they sure are tough, the wife that is!).

Enjoy my man!

Thanks! This is our first. It's a very exciting experience.
post #1174 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

IMHO, break-in is neither placebo nor fiction. But I don't think the product's sound is changing during the break-in period. Rather, it is an acclimation of the human to the system. It takes quite a long time to tune into the suble details of sound. When something is changed in the system, we need to listen for a while to sense the subtleties. I think manufacturers recommend break-in as a means to say give yourself time to live with the product and learn to appreciate the full range of its performance.

Right. I (and others) have been saying such for years. Unfortunately, it falls on deaf ears.
post #1175 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Right. I (and others) have been saying such for years. Unfortunately, it falls on deaf ears.

Although I commented on my recent experience with my SSP-800 changing in bass output, I would think you and many of your peers, would have the most difficult time in determining if there is any possibility in the notion of break-in period.

As part of your audiophile hobby and Stereophile writer sideline, you are constantly changing out your system gear to review the next latest and greatest pieces of electronics. This must be very frustrating and confusing, whereas you're probably not even able to remember your baseline sound of the systems that you personally own?

Additionally, and I know I'm starting to realize this as I have entered my mid 50's, that many of my opinions may be more skewed towards formulated opinions rather than to clear perception.

Cognizant of these potential sensorial limitations accumulated through experience and age, I try to make a concerted effort to keep my mind open to the world of possibilities.
post #1176 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post

Although I commented on my recent experience with my SSP-800 changing in bass output, I would think you and many of your peers, would have the most difficult time in determining if there is any possibility in the notion of break-in period.

As part of your audiophile hobby and Stereophile writer sideline, you are constantly changing out your system gear to review the next latest and greatest pieces of electronics. This must be very frustrating and confusing, whereas you're not being able to remember your baseline sound of the systems that you personally own?

You raise a good point and I do pay attention to those issues. First, I have two systems and try to change only one at a time. Second, I pay close attention to the immediate effects of introducing a new component into a system and try to compare that to the effects of removing it. (I also listen in between.) Third, and this is an overriding matter, the effects of sensory/neural adaptation adaptation have a strong scientific basis while the effects of equipment break-in do not. Note, I am speaking of the effects of break-in, not just any physical measurements.

So, yes, I did read your comments but, let's say, they do not move me.
post #1177 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

You raise a good point and I do pay attention to those issues. First, I have two systems and try to change only one at a time. Second, I pay close attention to the immediate effects of introducing a new component into a system and try to compare that to the effects of removing it. (I also listen in between.) Third, and this is an overriding matter, the effects of sensory/neural adaptation adaptation have a strong scientific basis while the effects of equipment break-in do not. Note, I am speaking of the effects of break-in, not just any physical measurements.

So, yes, I did read your comments but, let's say, they do not move me.

I guess I am left to ponder then, what happened either physically or extrasensory, to change my perception of the bass output?

I'm actually sorry that I missed having you as a professor in college. I think your class would be very challenging and enjoyable, albeit frustrating!
post #1178 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post

I guess I am left to ponder then, what happened either physically or extrasensory, to change my perception of the bass output?

Undoubtedly, there were some small physical changes in the components but I cannot imagine them rising to the level of perceptible. OTOH, human perceptual and adaptive mechanisms are such that different people attend, consciously and subconsciously, to different aspects of such a complex stimulus. One possible mechanism is that one might adapt to something that is a constant in the stimulus and, as a result, begin to attend to something else. That outcome would be highly sensitive to both the nature of the stimulus and to the individual subject.

Quote:


I'm actually sorry that I missed having you as a professor in college. I think your class would be very challenging and enjoyable, albeit frustrating!

Really? I have gotten a lot of the first two reactions but I cannot recall often hearing of the third. Mebbe they don't speak up.
post #1179 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

Break in is all snake oil, how can anyone still take "break in" seriously?

Doug, I think I speak for everyone here when I say you are truly a complete idiot. This is another one of those areas where you refuse to listen or experiment which is one of the joys of this hobby, but instead put on your captain science hat and claim it's bunk. Why would virtually all manufacturer's of electronics, speakers, and cables, suggest that their products will sound better over time? Does it help them sell their stuff more by telling people it doesn't sound as good when you first get it? Just think about what's in it for them? The cynical point of view would suggest that all manufacturer's also claim there is no such thing as break in and it is perfect from the first second it is used. But it just isn't the case. But you don't care, so I'm again just wasting time typing a message to a childish moron who wouldn't know good sound if someone dropped a Classe stack on his front porch in an even trade for his True HD decoding Yamaha receiver. For what it's worth here is a quote from an article on the subject of cable break in... "Most all cable manufacturers agree that break-in is a result of changes in the conductor and/or dielectric. According to one manufacturer: "The insulation (or dielectric) will absorb energy from the conductor when a current is flowing (i.e. when music is playing). This energy-absorption causes the dielectric's molecules to re-arrange themselves from a random order into a uniform order. When the molecules have been rearranged, the dielectric will absorb less energy & consequently cause less distortion."

Now go make your family and friends and neighbors miserable with your idiotness and leave this forum alone!
post #1180 of 5778
Please, PM me with info on a dealer selling at a meaningful discount.
post #1181 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

Doug, I think I speak for everyone here when I say you are truly a complete idiot.

You don't speak for me in this regard. I'm of the opinion that Doug is young person who is not particularly politic in putting forth his opinions. These are often overly dogmatic and poorly formed due to immaturity, but quite often there is kernel of truth there. In no way does it rise to the level of idiocy. The way he presents the ideas is unfortunate though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

Why would virtually all manufacturer's of electronics, speakers, and cables, suggest that their products will sound better over time?

Maybe to cut down on returns due to buyer remorse? Or in realization that "sounding better" is a very subjective judgment and in fact accommodation over time is a very real phenomena and things will actual sound better as the user becomes used to the sound, even when the sound the equipment produces is completely unchanged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

For what it's worth here is a quote from an article on the subject of cable break in... "Most all cable manufacturers agree that break-in is a result of changes in the conductor and/or dielectric. According to one manufacturer: "The insulation (or dielectric) will absorb energy from the conductor when a current is flowing (i.e. when music is playing). This energy-absorption causes the dielectric's molecules to re-arrange themselves from a random order into a uniform order. When the molecules have been rearranged, the dielectric will absorb less energy & consequently cause less distortion."

I hold an PhD in the sciences. This does not happen. If the molecules in a piece of wire insulation were to rearrange themselves in this way you would see a remarkable change in the physical properties of the insulation - the plastic would change from a pliable material that is easily bent or formed to a rigid solid that would break before you were able to bend it. In addition any energy accumulation that is happening occurs on a time scale well less than 1 second.

Here is a basic article in polymer science that illustrates the molecular rearrangement point and describes some of the physical properties involved.

http://www.lasalle.edu/academ/chem/m...rystalline.htm

Audio companies have a very bad reputation in the science community for publishing stuff like this. Unfortunately there is no regulatory body like the FDA to call them out on it so they get away with it. Consumers should realize the lack of oversight in this area and take such claims with a very large grain of salt.
post #1182 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by ehlarson View Post

You don't speak for me in this regard. I'm of the opinion that Doug is young person who is not particularly politic in putting forth his opinions. These are often overly dogmatic and poorly formed due to immaturity, but quite often there is kernel of truth there. In no way does it rise to the level of idiocy. The way he presents the ideas is unfortunate though.



Maybe to cut down on returns due to buyer remorse? Or in realization that "sounding better" is a very subjective judgment and in fact accommodation over time is a very real phenomena and things will actual sound better as the user becomes used to the sound, even when the sound the equipment produces is completely unchanged.



I hold an PhD in the sciences. This does not happen. If the molecules in a piece of wire insulation were to rearrange themselves in this way you would see a remarkable change in the physical properties of the insulation - the plastic would change from a pliable material that is easily bent or formed to a rigid solid that would break before you were able to bend it. In addition any energy accumulation that is happening occurs on a time scale well less than 1 second.

Here is a basic article in polymer science that illustrates the molecular rearrangement point and describes some of the physical properties involved.

http://www.lasalle.edu/academ/chem/m...rystalline.htm

Audio companies have a very bad reputation in the science community for publishing stuff like this. Unfortunately there is no regulatory body like the FDA to call them out on it so they get away with it. Consumers should realize the lack of oversight in this area and take such claims with a very large grain of salt.

Respectfully, can I just say that the ONLY people who don't believe in break in are engineers (not all to be fair) and high-end haters. If you would just quit posting your prejudiced viewpoint and actually LISTEN (what a concept!!!) so you could have an informed opinion then it would be worth engaging in debate. It is not a debate or a meaningful dialog if one party does critical listening and evaluation and the other party just says "that can't be true". If you cannot agree with at least that statement, then there is no point in you being on this particular thread other than to fire people up like poor Yamaha True HD listening Doug always does. Because then you are really saying "I can have an informed opinion even without doing a single thing to validate my own viewpoint". Whereas we are....wait for it.....listening. And why are people so adamantly opposed to the idea that electronics change slightly in character (not measurements mind you, but subtle changes in character) over a period of time after they are first used? It's baffling. Some people love to be difficult it would seem....
post #1183 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbawilly View Post

Please, PM me with info on a dealer selling at a meaningful discount.

The only way you are likely to find a discount of any note is if the dealer is selling their demo unit. Classe, B&W, & Rotel are very protective of their dealers and do not like getting wind of discounts on new and current product unless they are sponsoring such a promotion. And $8,000 is a bargain for the 800. The original target price for it was between $12,000-$15,000. They elected to come out with a world-beater at a price in line with more mid-fi brands selling at high-end prices making getting an SSP-800 a virtual no-brainer.....unless you're hung up on auto EQ or getting True HD/DTS HD MA decoding right out of the gate (coming via a free upgrade soon by the way). For those customers, that's why God created Denon. Who cares about sound when you have auto EQ!?!?!?!
post #1184 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

Respectfully, can I just say that the ONLY people who don't believe in break in are engineers (not all to be fair) and high-end haters.

Patently, not true.

Quote:


And why are people so adamantly opposed to the idea that electronics change slightly in character (not measurements mind you, but subtle changes in character) over a period of time after they are first used? It's baffling. Some people love to be difficult it would seem....

Nah. Some people just need proof or a reliable demonstration.
post #1185 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

This is another one of those areas where you refuse to listen...

Looks like the shoe is on the other foot.
post #1186 of 5778
I'm no engineer, and I do not believe in equipment break in. I'm fully in the camp that believes the listener 'breaks in,' not the equipment.

I don't particularly care that it was supposed to cost $12-15K. The fact of the matter is that it was released at $8K, and there is more than enough margin at that price to offer me a meaningful discount. I can wait. I've waited this long.
post #1187 of 5778
When the new DSP board is released...if you own a higher end BD player such as the Pioneer Elite 09 or the Denon 3800....will you connect analog to the 800 or will you go HDMI? I believe Classe suggests going HDMI whenever possible but I thought I'd get your opinions. Thanks.
post #1188 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by RalphoR View Post

When the new DSP board is released...if you own a higher end BD player such as the Pioneer Elite 09 or the Denon 3800....will you connect analog to the 800 or will you go HDMI? I believe Classe suggests going HDMI whenever possible but I thought I'd get your opinions. Thanks.

It is certainly subject to your own preference. Try both and see which you like. I'm not a fan of wolfson DACs myself, which are in the 09, so I'd probably go HDMI.
post #1189 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by RalphoR View Post

When the new DSP board is released...if you own a higher end BD player such as the Pioneer Elite 09 or the Denon 3800....will you connect analog to the 800 or will you go HDMI? I believe Classe suggests going HDMI whenever possible but I thought I'd get your opinions. Thanks.

The question of analog or digital connections does not depend on having the new DSP board. You have that choice in the current SSP-800.

Not sure why anyone would use an analog connection, however, when that prevents access to the bass management, PEQ, time alignment, and other post-processing, let alone the potentially superior Classe DACs.
post #1190 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

The question of analog or digital connections does not depend on having the new DSP board. You have that choice in the current SSP-800.

Not sure why anyone would use an analog connection, however, when that prevents access to the bass management, PEQ, time alignment, and other post-processing, let alone the potentially superior Classe DACs.

In the case of the Pioneer, it doesn't do DTS-MA decoding on board yet. until it does (which I understand is anytime now) or the Classe DSP comes out, if someone wanted DTS-MA, they'd have to.
post #1191 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbawilly View Post

I'm no engineer, and I do not believe in equipment break in. I'm fully in the camp that believes the listener 'breaks in,' not the equipment.

I don't particularly care that it was supposed to cost $12-15K. The fact of the matter is that it was released at $8K, and there is more than enough margin at that price to offer me a meaningful discount. I can wait. I've waited this long.

bubbawilly and everyone else who doesn't believe in break-in - answer this one question and this one question only: Have you made an earnest attempt at listening for it? EVERY. SINGLE. MANUFACTURER. behind the scenes with no sales related motivation are very matter of fact about the need for break in.

As for the discount question. It is this attitude that has sent US jobs to China. No one cares that the people making the stuff have to stay in business and the people selling the stuff have to stay in business. Everyone wants hi-fi dealers to be stereo libraries that don't make a dime but want them to bend over backwards when they need help or service. So keep on waiting I guess or buy something made by overworked Chinese children and save a few bucks on something that doesn't sound as good.

And are all you discount hounds asking for discounts on your 'Big Macs' and your 'value meals'? Why doesn't it extend to them? You think 'McDonalds' needs the money more than small specialty hi-fi manufacturers making the worlds finest equipment? Start harrassing those $5/hr drive-thru clerks for an even bigger deal!!! Don't you deserve that too!?!
post #1192 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by RalphoR View Post

When the new DSP board is released...if you own a higher end BD player such as the Pioneer Elite 09 or the Denon 3800....will you connect analog to the 800 or will you go HDMI? I believe Classe suggests going HDMI whenever possible but I thought I'd get your opinions. Thanks.

We have our 800 paired with an 09 and it sounded crazy better via HDMI than analog. Though Pioneer is rightly very proud of the analog section, it still isn't the equal or even close to the Classe. It's easy enough to do the comparison yourself and verify though. But it wasn't subtle...
post #1193 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by sikoniko View Post

In the case of the Pioneer, it doesn't do DTS-MA decoding on board yet. until it does (which I understand is anytime now) or the Classe DSP comes out, if someone wanted DTS-MA, they'd have to.

Compressed Dolby Digital sounds better via HDMI than anything coming out of the 09 via analog. Higher res codecs coming out analog of the 09 can't make up the difference against that big a casm in equipment quality. Don't get me wrong, I love the 09. But let the 800 do the heavy lifting.
post #1194 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Looks like the shoe is on the other foot.

Not sure what you mean???
post #1195 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

Not sure what you mean???

Merely that just as you argue that Doug refuses to listen, so too, do you wrt to electronics break-in, for which there is no objective proof. Many of us, incuding me, believe break-in is real. Just that it's not happening in the electronics.
post #1196 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Merely that just as you argue that Doug refuses to listen, so too, do you wrt to electronics break-in, for which there is no objective proof. Many of us, incuding me, believe break-in is real. Just that it's not happening in the electronics.

Roger,

speaker break-in real? (if manufacturer didnt run enough speaker/driver tests)
Cable/speaker wire break-in myth?
Electronics break-in myth?
post #1197 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Roger,

speaker break-in real? (if manufacturer didnt run enough speaker/driver tests)
Cable/speaker wire break-in myth?
Electronics break-in myth?

I think his point was breakin happens in the most important element in the chain... the human attached to those speakers.

I think how music sounds (alteast to me) is not just that you 'learn' to like a sound or find its strong/bad points over time but it also depends on your mood, time of day and general state. Atleast thats how it works for me, my setup sounds ok most of the time but sometimes i sit down and it just hits me how well it sounds.

Daniel.
post #1198 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by sikoniko View Post

In the case of the Pioneer, it doesn't do DTS-MA decoding on board yet. until it does (which I understand is anytime now) or the Classe DSP comes out, if someone wanted DTS-MA, they'd have to.

This is exactly why I asked....the 09 will have the ability to decode but not until an upcoming firmware. Thanks.

I was curious when they both can do the decoding (SSP and a BD player) which way is everyone going in terms of analog vs. HDMI.
post #1199 of 5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

We have our 800 paired with an 09 and it sounded crazy better via HDMI than analog. Though Pioneer is rightly very proud of the analog section, it still isn't the equal or even close to the Classe. It's easy enough to do the comparison yourself and verify though. But it wasn't subtle...

Thanks for the response. So even though the 800 cannot decode the HD audio it still sounds better connected to the 09 via HDMI? Wow...that's great to hear! I can't wait now for the new DSP board and hear what the DACs in the 800 can do with HD audio.
post #1200 of 5778
I'd respectfully like to state that my opinion is different from Scott's . I prefer the analog out on CD of the Pio 09 to the HDMI'd out on 2 channel. While I do think the HDMI setting has a slightly larger soundstage that is marginally more transparent and detailed, the analog out of the 09 offers a very natural, full bodied, quiet and settled sound. To me it's my preference to run that way with cd although at times when I want to max out detail I'll switch to HDMI. Of course this is entirely subjective and my in my imagination to the objectivist measurement nazis so ymmv etc. As an analog preamp tho the Classe is very very good and may be it's sleeper capability.
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