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Official Classe SSP-800 thread. - Page 146

post #4351 of 5779
Connecting the output for floating operation doesn't necessarily cause N+D to go up 20 dB. Integrated circuit offerings like the DRV134 may be 20 dB higher due to the limitations of the device internals. Classe could have easily implemented the same basic circuit with the LME49720. All it takes are a bunch of 0.1% resistors. Your ex employer did it in their Model 363. Remember that one?

If you look at complaints for ground loop noise here on AVS Forum, most of them are for the preamp to poweramp run. Not everyone has balanced inputs on their power amplifiers, and those are the interfaces that would most greatly benefit from the floating output topology. Of course, I always recommend that if you're going out to buy a power amplifier, don't buy any model that doesn't have balanced inputs.
post #4352 of 5779
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

Connecting the output for floating operation doesn't necessarily cause N+D to go up 20 dB.

I was just referring to the spec for the part you recommended.

Quote:


Integrated circuit offerings like the DRV134 may be 20 dB higher due to the limitations of the device internals.

Exactly.

Quote:


If you look at complaints for ground loop noise here on AVS Forum, most of them are for the preamp to poweramp run. Not everyone has balanced inputs on their power amplifiers, and those are the interfaces that would most greatly benefit from the floating output topology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

The big advantage of floating differential outputs (ala DRV134) is that they work almost as well into single-ended terminations as they do into fully differential loads. Typically, they'll give you 50+ dB ground noise (ground loop) rejection.

According to the DRV134 spec sheet, that would not be the case:

Quote:


For best rejection of line noise and hum differential mode operation is recommended. However, single-ended performance is adequate for many applications. In general single ended performance is comparable to differential mode (see THD+N typical performance curves), but the common mode and noise rejection inherent in balanced-pair systems is lost.

If you connect the balanced output to the unbalanced amp as Rane recommends in the attached, there is no ground loop reduction mechanism unless there is also a ground lift switch. I do not remember seeing those on AV preamps.

Quote:


Of course, I always recommend that if you're going out to buy a power amplifier, don't buy any model that doesn't have balanced inputs.

Good advice.
LL
post #4353 of 5779
...but the common mode and noise rejection inherent in balanced-pair systems is lost....

That's totally false. You can easily demonstrate the ground noise rejection characteristic of the active floating output topology in a SPICE model (or equivalent). I use this configuration and it works exactly as I've stated. It's basically the mirror operation of feeding a single ended source into a diff input. Same improvement applies there as well. Typically, you get 50+ dB of common-mode noise reduction. If you try it (or Rane is trying it) and it's not working, then you are doing something wrong. You have to wire the single ended termination back to the floating output differentially. You don't connect the negative output terminal of the driver to ground at the source location as is shown in the DRV134 data sheet, and expect to get any common-mode noise reduction!
post #4354 of 5779
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

...but the common mode and noise rejection inherent in balanced-pair systems is lost....

That's totally false.

No. It's correct. You are treating ground loop noise the same as interference from external fields, like transformer hum. The ground loop noise will be reduced, but the induced interference will not, since the impedances on the two conductors are no longer balanced.

IMHO, this line of discussion has long ago ceased to be of any relevance to the SSP-800. Unless you have other issues to discuss in that regard, I will not be participating further.
post #4355 of 5779
Roger, you flunk the balanced interfaces course. The whole reason that these active floating output devices were developed and marketed was to do the very thing you claim they don't do. Basically, they are emulating a transformer floating output winding (without the impedance matching property), which is a well known way to eliminate the ground loop problems that you typically experience when feeding single ended loads. I earn my living dealing with these types of circuits and interfaces and I certainly KNOW what they do, and how they work. I've probably forgotten more about balanced interfaces than what anyone else around here ever knew (no exaggeration).

The lack of inclusion of this type of output interface in a piece of gear that is reputed to be state-of-the-art and costs as much as the SSP-800, is noteworthy. Particularly, when all it takes is a handful of relatively inexpensive parts to implement the full interface. The AVP-20 has them. I looked at the photos Steve B. posted of the SSP-800 internals, and my comment was pretty much: where's the beef! Maybe that's the cost of assembling something up in Canada these days.
post #4356 of 5779
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

Roger, you flunk the balanced interfaces course. The whole reason that these active floating output devices were developed and marketed was to do the very thing you claim they don't do. Basically, they are emulating a transformer floating output winding (without the impedance matching property), which is a well known way to eliminate the ground loop problems that you typically experience when feeding single ended loads. I earn my living dealing with these types of circuits and interfaces and I certainly KNOW what they do, and how they work. I've probably forgotten more about balanced interfaces than what anyone else around here ever knew (no exaggeration).

The lack of inclusion of this type of output interface in a piece of gear that is reputed to be state-of-the-art and costs as much as the SSP-800, is noteworthy. Particularly, when all it takes is a handful of relatively inexpensive parts to implement the full interface. The AVP-20 has them. I looked at the photos Steve B. posted of the SSP-800 internals, and my comment was pretty much: where's the beef! Maybe that's the cost of assembling something up in Canada these days.

So are you an SSP-800 owner, or planning to become one?

Really, isn't this topic extraordinarily immaterial to the real world? I have a Denon AVP-A1 which was supposed to be the ultimate, fully balanced, cream of the crop design. While it is a great unit, the SSP-800 is markedly superior in how is sounds, if not in its parts list.

Maybe you take a car engine apart and finger the cylinders to see how smooth they are. Most prefer to take the car out and see how it drives.
post #4357 of 5779
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

Roger, you flunk the balanced interfaces course. The whole reason that these active floating output devices were developed and marketed was to do the very thing you claim they don't do. Basically, they are emulating a transformer floating output winding (without the impedance matching property), which is a well known way to eliminate the ground loop problems that you typically experience when feeding single ended loads.

And you flunk reading and comprehension. I already agreed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

The ground loop noise will be reduced

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

The lack of inclusion of this type of output interface in a piece of gear that is reputed to be state-of-the-art and costs as much as the SSP-800, is noteworthy. Particularly, when all it takes is a handful of relatively inexpensive parts to implement the full interface.

Since the SSP-800 has been shipping for 3 years as it is, there's zero chance they will change it, and nothing more to be gained by flogging it here. Why not take it up with Alan Clark for the next version wish list?
post #4358 of 5779
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

So are you an SSP-800 owner, or planning to become one?

Really, isn't this topic extraordinarily immaterial to the real world? I have a Denon AVP-A1 which was supposed to be the ultimate, fully balanced, cream of the crop design. While it is a great unit, the SSP-800 is markedly superior in how is sounds, if not in its parts list.

Maybe you take a car engine apart and finger the cylinders to see how smooth they are. Most prefer to take the car out and see how it drives.

+1

This discussion is becoming silly.
post #4359 of 5779
...Most prefer to take the car out and see how it drives....

Probably drives well on balanced roads, not so well on unbalanced roads. As to what topics are relevant, I decide what is material or immaterial, before I go and shell out that kind of money. As to it's allegedly superior sound, I've not seen one shred of valid measurement data that indicates that it would sound superior to any of the other high-end processors. Of course, product infatuation and enthusiasm often leads to irrational conclusions.

BTW, what's with all this "+1" stuff I see all over the internet? The results of taking a home bozo correspondence course?
post #4360 of 5779
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

BTW, what's with all this "+1" stuff I see all over the internet? The results of taking a home bozo correspondence course?

+1 basically means I agree, I'm in, include me, etc... depending on context.
post #4361 of 5779
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

...Most prefer to take the car out and see how it drives....

Probably drives well on balanced roads, not so well on unbalanced roads. As to what topics are relevant, I decide what is material or immaterial, before I go and shell out that kind of money. As to it's allegedly superior sound, I've not seen one shred of valid measurement data that indicates that it would sound superior to any of the other high-end processors. Of course, product infatuation and enthusiasm often leads to irrational conclusions.

BTW, what's with all this "+1" stuff I see all over the internet? The results of taking a home bozo correspondence course?

Listening is the final criteria, I'm sure even respected critics would say this.

And I don't think anyone is claiming the SSP-800 is superior to other high end processors. It's just that it offers incredible sonic performance to the listener. I've owned or demoed a lot in my setup, and while I'd never claim the Classé is the best out of everything in the market, because who can listen to more than a few percent of the products in the same environment, it is the best sounding processor I've experienced to date.

Have you looked at the specs of the Denon AVP-A1HDCI? Is that spec'd "better"? I honestly don't know, but it certainly was touted, when paired with their matching amp, to be a truly remarkable design.

+2

http://www.audioproducts.com.au/down...lg_E2_rev3.pdf
post #4362 of 5779
+1
post #4363 of 5779
I looked at it. That thing is a real monster (-1). I don't need the video processing, since I already have a Realta based processor (+1). I was attracted to the Cary 12, but it seems to have its share of quirks (-1). I do have 8000 more bucks to spend on a processor than you folks have (+1).
post #4364 of 5779
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post
I looked at it. That thing is a real monster (-1). I don't need the video processing, since I already have a Realta based processor (+1). I was attracted to the Cary 12, but it seems to have its share of quirks (-1). I do have 8000 more bucks to spend on a processor than you folks have (+1).
Not sure about your last line, did you mean "I do have 8000 more bucks to spend on a processor than you folks have spent on the SSP-800?"


If not and you're assuming that we "settled" and bought the SSP-800 because we didn't have the funds to reach higher, you're mistaken. Many of us have the resources to spend more, but decided it wasn't necessary after auditioning the SSP-800.
post #4365 of 5779
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7ryder View Post
Not sure about your last line, did you mean "I do have 8000 more bucks to spend on a processor than you folks have spent on the SSP-800?"


If not and you're assuming that we "settled" and bought the SSP-800 because we didn't have the funds to reach higher, you're mistaken. Many of us have the resources to spend more, but decided it wasn't necessary after auditioning the SSP-800.
The new Lexicon is supposed to be around 17k. I look forward to hearing it at your place when it comes out 7Ryder to compare with the Classe
post #4366 of 5779
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7ryder View Post
Not sure about your last line, did you mean "I do have 8000 more bucks to spend on a processor than you folks have spent on the SSP-800?"


If not and you're assuming that we "settled" and bought the SSP-800 because we didn't have the funds to reach higher, you're mistaken. Many of us have the resources to spend more, but decided it wasn't necessary after auditioning the SSP-800.
Agreed
post #4367 of 5779
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post
...Most prefer to take the car out and see how it drives....

Probably drives well on balanced roads, not so well on unbalanced roads. As to what topics are relevant, I decide what is material or immaterial, before I go and shell out that kind of money.
If you test a car and find something lacking, do you explain to the dealer/manufacturer/other owners the ways they could design it differently or just shop for a different car?

Quote:
As to its allegedly superior sound, I've not seen one shred of valid measurement data that indicates that it would sound superior to any of the other high-end processors. Of course, product infatuation and enthusiasm often leads to irrational conclusions.
And that's different from car evaluation how?
post #4368 of 5779
I didn't bring up the car analogy in the first place. Personally, I don't see any similarity between test driving a car and evaluating a piece of audio equipment. Maybe you folks do. As to the 8000 buck thing, it was poorly worded. What I meant was that my checking account hadn't decremented 8000 dollars like those of you who had purchased the SSP. I certainly have the cash on hand to purchase many SSPs. 17 kilobucks for the new Lexicon! Be interesting to see what this one does. Wonder if it has active floating outputs?
post #4369 of 5779
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

I didn't bring up the car analogy in the first place. Personally, I don't see any similarity between test driving a car and evaluating a piece of audio equipment. Maybe you folks do. As to the 8000 buck thing, it was poorly worded. What I meant was that my checking account hadn't decremented 8000 dollars like those of you who had purchased the SSP. I certainly have the cash on hand to purchase many SSPs. 17 kilobucks for the new Lexicon! Be interesting to see what this one does. Wonder if it has active floating outputs?

At this stage, you're prancing into trolling territory. If you're not an owner, nor legitimately plan to become one, you are not true to the spirit of the boards.

Start a new thread focused on the new Lexicon, and those interested will join you.
post #4370 of 5779
I didn't bring up the Lexicon, either. chjo100 did. Direct your negative animus appropriately.
post #4371 of 5779
Its not animus. What's your purpose here?
post #4372 of 5779
Don't worry. I'm sure that when folks return from Cedia after seeing the new Lexicon, that one of them will be starting a thread on that subject. If I have any questions or comments, I'll be over there, not here. BTW, I didn't see where you were authorized by the website owners to question the presence of AVS forum members. You don't run this show!
post #4373 of 5779
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

Don't worry. I'm sure that when folks return from Cedia after seeing the new Lexicon, that one of them will be starting a thread on that subject. If I have any questions or comments, I'll be over there, not here. BTW, I didn't see where you were authorized by the website owners to question the presence of AVS forum members. You don't run this show!

Clearly...but what are you seeking?
post #4374 of 5779
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

...Most prefer to take the car out and see how it drives....

Probably drives well on balanced roads, not so well on unbalanced roads...

Speaking of car analogies... Below is not so good on 'unbalanced' roads but on 'balanced' roads, is does precisely and ideally what it is designed to do...

If you're confident, you know what you want and then finding it is easy. Bought mine sight unseen with no test drive or objective analysis... perfect!

Confidence. Time for you to get some rather than vacillating. The Classe' is a first class piece (sonically speaking).

post #4375 of 5779
Quote:
Originally Posted by chjo100 View Post

The new Lexicon is supposed to be around 17k. I look forward to hearing it at your place when it comes out 7Ryder to compare with the Classe

Ain't gonna happen Chjo, the SSP-800 is more than good enuff for what I use it for! BTW, Dean is finishing stuff up tomorrow, so I'll invite you over soon.
post #4376 of 5779
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7ryder View Post

Ain't gonna happen Chjo, the SSP-800 is more than good enuff for what I use it for! BTW, Dean is finishing stuff up tomorrow, so I'll invite you over soon.

Fine, I guess I'll just have to pick up a couple units, you know one for the bedroom and one in my media room... Joking aside, the SSP-800 is a killer piece. After letting mine go and trying several processors I have not found it's equal. Recently I got the Denon AVP, and I'm really impressed with it, but based on my not so reliable memory, it does not live up to the Classe SSP-800. Can't wait to hear it in your system again after Dean has it all dialed in.
post #4377 of 5779
I've been following the posts from the last few days, wow! I'm admittedly not an electrical engineer but I feel compelled to chime in.

I pretty much bought the 800 sight, and sound, unseen( since the closest dealer was 4 hours away). After many months of reading reviews/opinions, and following this thread and many others pre/pro threads, I finally made the trip to the dealer and made the purchase a few months ago.

And I will say, that with my equipment and in my environment, and to my ears, I could not be any more satisfied with the musicality of the 800 (coming from an older McIntosh pre/pro, is my only comparison bar). The 800 has features that I was looking for, and coupled with the sonic performance (again to my ears), that makes this piece a perfect fit in my system.

Just my two cents,
Dave
post #4378 of 5779
Quote:
Originally Posted by buttecreeker View Post

I've been following the posts from the last few days, wow! I'm admittedly not an electrical engineer but I feel compelled to chime in.

I pretty much bought the 800 sight, and sound, unseen( since the closest dealer was 4 hours away). After many months of reading reviews/opinions, and following this thread and many others pre/pro threads, I finally made the trip to the dealer and made the purchase a few months ago.

And I will say, that with my equipment and in my environment, and to my ears, I could not be any more satisfied with the musicality of the 800 (coming from an older McIntosh pre/pro, is my only comparison bar). The 800 has features that I was looking for, and coupled with the sonic performance (again to my ears), that makes this piece a perfect fit in my system.

Just my two cents,
Dave

I am in the same boat as you, and completely agree!
post #4379 of 5779
Hi folks,
I have been away for like what seems like eternity (my pops has been extremely ill) and I am having an issue again and am looking for some thoughts if possible. I bought a TIVO box a number of months ago and my theater set-up has been running just fine. Finally have everything I have wanted in my set-up. Time to just enjoy...No more worring about upgrades!

I had my place painted and pulled the audio/video cabinet out for painters to get behind wall a couple of months back. Of course all my heavy power cords fell out of everything and my typical cursing to put everything back (okay if I could do it again I would have passed on all of these cords that won't stay in place if touched) and got the rack back in place.

Since then when watching Tivo/TV only I get picture but sound is like the sound of a kid who has placed a playing card in the spokes of his bike and the sound I get is just that ticking sound. I get picture though. I have replaced HDMI cables, I have tried different HDMI slots in the Classe, I have rebooted everything many times. I can get sound if I bypass HDMI and use fiber optic but continue to use HDMI for video (Classe allows this-yeah).

I finally got a replacement Tivo box and replaced last night. Everything was fine and so happy to have everything back in place and working again and perhaps this will finally be the last issue I have for years!

Got home tonight and the friggin noise is back like the original TIVO box. I am so bummed. What to check next? Ideas?

FYI, my Arcam Blu-ray and Rega Saturn CD player work fine and getting wonderful sound and or sound/picture with HDMI. My issue is audio only/Tivo with HDMI only. Fiber is okay.

Is is possible Tivo and Classe are not playing nice together somehow? Not sure what to check next. Could the Comcast cable card (looks like a credit card you slide in to Tivo) have issues but its not a mechanical piece?

I can't imagine I have a second bad Tivo box? Ugh..

Sorry for the long post and thanks for your help in advance. Really nice to be back and need to read thru this thread and catch up (and all the others).

The Classe still has a special analog section. I am still blown away by the imaging I get. When I listen to CD thru the Arcam blu-ray via HDMI the stage collapses. What a difference when listening to my Rega, everything bypassed and RCAs. I think I could toss my speakers in place and still have this awesome imaging. Just a small update and how nice I think this unit still is.

Thanks
Rick
post #4380 of 5779
Hi Rick,

Just for the sake of diagnosis, could you go to the TiVo and change the audio output from bitstream to PCM, and see if the same clicking remains?

When you say clicking, are you hearing little bursts of the actual program, chopped up, or is it just clicks?

I did not do a lot of searching, but this post turned up that sounded like your situation. If that is the case, it explains why both TiVo units behaved the same. In that case, your solution is to use the optical for the Dolby audio. It's a perfect workaround, as there is no difference in the audio quality from each path.
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