Official Classe SSP-800 thread. - Page 3

Now...GutlessBadSalesMan

I disagree; I want to see the implementation of HDMI 1.3/bitstreem with all of the HD audio codecs. To me this is a first generation product.


As I mentioned in a past post, elimination of the video processing seems to me to be a bad idea. Furthermore, 1.3 HDMI/bitstreem implementation of all the HD codecs has only been around for a little over a year. You sound like a salesman reading the marketing material. I want application experience.


You are telling us to believe the information that someone at Classe told you. Do you work for Classe, if not, who you work for. You seem to be overselling the product. Also, you may state that it's not the Greatest thing since Sliced Bread" but you should read your own posts. Sounds like Marketing to me.

What is bothering me is your use of the term facts. You have nothing compelling in any of your arguments that it will be "best things to happen to high-end audio lately especially for the price and level of engineering"

The only thing we agree on, is a part of one of your statements "Time will tell how everything will pan out"

Beats Scrappyguy aka the Pathetic Professional Salesman.

Both features are niceties but are insignificant contributors to sound quality which should be your first goal. To that end it (SSP-800) is a couple generations along.


It's a bad idea to those that are short sighted to the developments that continue to take place in the video processing realm. Many leap frogging attempts have taken place in the last few years and it is unlikely to shift paradigm any time soon. I don't have hands on experience yet myself but what I share comes by way of those that do. How that information makes it to these boards is of little consequence but the message is still the same. It's a shame that you don't have a real interest in what you read but I can see why you feel that way.


Have you read all of my posts as they relate to the SSP-800? It's not my intention to sell you or anyone on anything. If I am guilty of anything it would be my enthusiasm in the product (as an engineer and my experience with the brand) and that may leach out as something that could be misconstrued. I meant no harm or foul play. Perhaps a slightly overzealous enthusiast? I'm guilty as charged.


Understood. I try to be very careful in the wording that I choose. For instance, back when I said that the SSP-800 is better (than the 300 and 600) and that it is was fact, is. It employs better components, better circuit topologies and better over all engineering. Classe' has learned a thing or two about building surround sound processors over the years. The knowledge gained from those experiences are then applied to a new product like we have in the SSP-800 which makes it a better sounding product. What I didn't say, that I think you were assuming I did, was that the SSP-800 will be better sounding to you. Only you can make that determination but regardless of what it means to you the SSP-800 is better. As for inferences to "the best processor anywhere" the statement is indeed ones opinion but the literal expression was a statement of fact. If I said "The SSP-800 Rocks!" then I made a factual remark "The SSP-800 Rocks!" BUT the meaning of that remark is opinionated. I was simply toying with you on the distinction. No harm intended.

Well, opinions can vary on this point. For me, speaking as someone with a separate video chain, no VP in the SSP is a feature, not a bug. But if you don't have a VP already this is an issue. Whether this is an issue or not for the vendor thus depends on their target market.

Sorry, I don't buy this. I want HBR codecs because I, like many, have players that don't decode DTS HD MA. I would sooner put the money in a SSP with HBR than a new (very expensive) player.

And I also don't buy the sound quality argument. Excellent handling of lossy is not IMHO in the same league as lossless. Of course excellent analog and lossless formats are the ideal combination.

I was surprised with the SSP-800 specs Classe posted from a numbers perspective. Personally, SNR is very important to me. Classe stated SNR is a surprisingly low 102 dB for bypassed analog and 105 dB digital. It is notable that recent competitive product in the 2ch preamp and SSP space are >105 dB, for example:
Cary 11 - 107 dB
Cary 11a - 115 dB
Primare PRE30 - 118 dB
Onkyo DTC 9.8 - 125 dB (digital)
Pass Labs X2.5 - 125 dB
electrocompaniet EC 4.8 - 130 dB

I am sure the SSP-800 will be appreciated by many, but with the lack of HBR format support and relatively low SNR, its a bit of a miss for me personally especially for such a high end product. Just my opinion as a purchaser of course, and many will disagree.

I won't play the "you can't hear that difference" game - if you are paying market top dollar, you should expect market top performance validated by measurements.

My concern is cause and effect. These added options can affect the processor performance. The processor and firmware are half of the performance set of a prepro. I want to see the implementation of the firmware and hardware before I would make any statements fore or against.


Development not only of Video, but Audio. If you had read my posts that is why I am going to buy a McIntosh, 2 channel Preamp. I am not sold on the Future Proof equipment claim. But, I think that video processing should be an option. It can be disabled for a third party video processor for future upgrades. I think that the cost is negligible, not "Short Sighted" as you claim. If the 800 is great, then I will rethink my migration path. But, I need to see a sustained performance from the prepro.


Ok


I understand your thought process, but, the firmware and implementation of board level components can make or break a product (not only Processors, ect.) I think you seem to lose sight of this. We are in a new age of product packages for HD Audio/Video (Hardware as well as software) not only in the manufactures prepro product but the 3rd party products that they will connect to. I think there is a big learning curve for all the manufacturers (New Processors, HDCP, HDMI, Codecs, Proprietary Function and so on.)

Again, I hope that Classe hits one out of the park. I have no allegiance to anyone product. I like bleeding edge technology. The only problem is that AV is moving so fast that manufactures can't keep up (it become bleeding edge much faster than the past.) On Video as well as Audio processing/performance.

Agreed, that is why I said " seems to be a mistake not to add processing". A company can't meet every target market. I care more about 2 channel music, so I am buying a 2 channel preamp with HT bypass. Most people on this site care about multi-channel and Video. I will accept less quality in these features compaied to the elite product. That is why you purchased a 3rd party VP. Video Processing is obviously very important to you.

It's far more likely that you'll replace the player before the processor. Whereas most HD players on the market are still maturing the SSP-800 with its support of MPCM (and eventual HBR decoders) is designed and built for the long run. I see this as a temporary issue for most concerned.


I've talked about perceptual coding theories before so I'll save that discussion here. In short lossless content will generally improve upon lossy content when processed by the same provider. However, mix providers and you mix results.


Specifications can be just as misleading as they are telling. As such it is advisable to exercise some caution when comparisons across brands are made. At first glance it would seem that the SSP-800 has a deficit among present company but with respect to what scale are the measurements drawn? An IHF-A rating will return much higher results. Classe' is typically conservative with their measurements. Without more clarification this should be seen as a potential rather than an absolute indicator.


There is more to the SSP-800 than HBR and SNR. Given that, the former is to come and the latter best differentiated through audition for those it matters to.


Agreed and it should come from an unbiased third using a constant set of standards.

Firmware finalization and testing are mandatory. So far it looks good.


I am sure other non-performance based criteria was a factor in your decision to choose the MC C2300 (not that I doubt it's capabilities). I am puzzled why you wouldn't rather the extra R&D be spent on improving audio than to compromise by adding an acceptable level of video for a given price? The SSP-900 included the Gennum VXP but it also cost $25K. At $8K the SSP-800 delivers all the audio that the SSP-900 did but at a price more people can grasp. The shift in design should be viewed as a gain not as a loss. Though I understand one's needs to trump desires.


We agree. As an early adopter you will get my full disclosure, good or bad. I am passionate but fair.


I hope so to. I have money riding on it and Classe' their reputation.

The SSP-800 is poised to become Classe's two-channel audio flagship (for the time being). It's the primary reason I have an interest in it (I owned the CP-700 which the SSP-800 is replacing). It's more of a multi-channel pre-amplifier than a processor.

Well then, you will laugh to hear I just decommissioned my original Sony DVP-S7000. It survived two SSP updates.

Are you saying their published SNR is not A weighted?

Interesting thread.

Is there some sort of previous history to Rebelman? Why are peoples responses quite so vicious?

On the subject of video processing I agree it is best done seperately but why include any video inputs at all? It only adds noise and complexity, an HDMI output that passes the video untouched and a decent RS232 implementation is all that is really needed to properly support an external video processor.

HDMI inputs are required on a SSP to get High Bit Rate HDMI audio.

Sorry if I was unclear, I only mentioned the single pass through output because of the need for HDMI inputs for audio. What I dont see the need for is all the other analogue video inputs when it does not process them. An overlay is hardly enough of a reason its own and dealing with the analogue video can only damage sound quality.

The SSP-600 Specs:

S/N Analog: >96Db
S/N Digital: >101Db

I can tell you the SSP-600 was dead quiet. I can also tell you that the person I sold my SSP-600 to sold his Cary 11 for the Classe SSP-600 and said that the classe was clearly a better processor.

For those of us who a/b'd Pre/Pro's, and concluded that the SSP-300/600 was a better fit over ANY other option, the SSP-800 will be a natural progression.

For those who are hunting for their sound, it may be more difficult. I can not convince you, and you should not be looking to be convinced. You should be out there listening and doing your own qualitative testing.

IF you need marketing material (little logo's on your processors), and numbers on paper, then I have to ask if you are really listening to and enjoying this hobby more than you are trying to impress the jones's for what you have.

I am a musician. I know what it means to be chasing your sound. I have 7 guitars, 4 amps and a pedalboard full of effects as well as even more equipment that has passed through my life that has been sold to buy up.

My recommendation is to wait and see. If the Classe is not for you, then it is not for you. If you didn't like the Proceed AVP, or the Classe SSP-300/600, guess what? You won't like the SSP-800. Don't try and tell people they are wrong for liking it, and don't make people try and convince you to like it. Respect that others have their own opinions. Respect that this thread is most likely going to be populated by people who ARE passionate about the SSP-800, and don't criticize them for such either.

For anyone looking to buy a new processor, the SSP-800 is a TOP TIER CONTENDER and a MUST in evaluating for SSP's. That doesn't mean anyone has to like it. That also does not mean that the Classe must be what you want. It is what it is, and accept it for that. Accept it as it is sold today and on the merit of what it offers today. Don't rely on a future update, and when it happens, great!

You can't please everyone, and Classe obviously is not trying to.

Sounds like marketing hype to me - reads good on paper, but the question is how good it sounds in the real world? Having tried and passed on several similarly hyped high end products I can tell you that what looks good on the spec sheet and what sounds good (to my ears) are not always the same thing. That said, I would not pass on the opportunity to audition it, if anyone at Classe wants to send me one to sample. And since Rebelman appears to be a Classe engineer, maybe he will take care of that for me. I promise to be thoroughly objective in my review.

You leave to many unknowns to responded intelligently.


I believe Classe's specifications are unweighted but would need to confirm.

Not that I am aware of. I would hope that the naysayers are genuinely interested in the product and not here for trash talk purposes only. I am confident in what the SSP-800 will bring to the table and my enthusiasm shows. I see no harm in that. The SSP-800 may not fit the bill for some that have universal needs but what it does do it was designed to do extremely well and that's audio and nothing but. If that's what people want then that's what they will get.


Agreed. I suspect it was for the sake of compatibility and simplicity. The possibility that HDMI will become the defacto standard for carrying both audio and video signals probably played a large roll in the design decisions.

Classe' isn't some startup company. They have been around and doing this for years and they brought in some amazing engineering talent to pull this off. It's unlikely that I'll be let down but anything is possible. Either way you'll hear about it.


Heh, I am an engineer but I work for another (Fortune 100) company. This is just my hobby (with benefits).

What ever happened to the ssp 900.For they have show en prototypes for years now and it never come to market.

The SSP-900 was a statement product that morphed into the SSP-800. It was over engineered, highly modular, expensive and had stability concerns given it's overwhelming complexity. Classe' had surmounting challenges to bring the unit to market. Only two (that I recall) made it through manufacturing but they had issues that plagued Classe's QA requirements. Classe' decided to slim it down make it less modular, more affordable and more reliable and designate the new SSP-900 light as the SSP-800. The SSP-800 retains the audio capablities of the SSP-900 and adds HDMI 1.3a but loses video processing and is $17K cheaper.

Indeed some will disagree and whole heartedly!

As I made very clear before specifications involving signal to noise ratios cannot be compared across brands without establishing a common frame of reference. My contact at Classe' confirmed for me the S/N measurements taken are UNweighted AND across the entire audio band from 20Hz to 20kHz. I also stated that Classe' is conservative with their measurements. Unlike most other brands which post their best case scenarios, these figures from Classe' are worse case.

IHF-A weighted measurements can very from their unweighted counterparts from as little as 3dB to more than 20dB depending on the filters used. Unless the manufacture provides the unweighted measurement and the frequencies that the samples are taken, they will be a useless means to gauge performance across differing brands. It would be very unwise for specification shoppers (Eric) to make any decisions based on SN ratios without a common frame of reference.

NONE of these can be compared to the Classe'.
Cary 11 - 107 dB - A-weighted at 1kHz
Cary 11a - 115 dB - A-weighted at 1kHz
Primare PRE30 - 118 dB - Unknown Scale
Onkyo DTC 9.8 - 125 dB (digital) - A-weighted at ?Hz
Pass Labs X2.5 - 125 dB - Unknown Scale
electrocompaniet EC 4.8 - 130 dB - Unknown Scale

RebelMan,

You are correct I should have specified if it was A weighted or not, and in fact in my spreadsheet the column heading says A weighted. The exceptions you noted. Pass Labs is dbV. The 9.8 has been independantly tested: Home Theater Magazine reported "The signal-to-noise ratio with a 100-mV input from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –125.30 dBrA". PRE30 & EC4.8 are unknown.

I do pay attention to specifications when we are discussing major purchases especially when independantly tested. Guilty as charged I guess. Do you think you can get Classe to disclose its A weighted number from 10 Hz to 24 KHz prior to a reviewer doing it?

Reading this thread is rather interesting, and I'd say that I am willing to drink the Classe koolaid as far as it goes with respect to video processing. I really don't have any need for upscaling, not do I foresee a need, and audio quality is paramount.

I'm not sure what the Room EQ feature is about or how a person will be able to use it, but I'm happy that there is some feature there. I'd sure like to know more about what is going to happen with that though. I aways have a bit of trepidation when a manufacturer feels that they know better and go off and try to reinvent a wheel when there are entire companies with far more resources working in the same area with solutions already in the market. That real-world experience is oh so important when it comes to refining what is ultimately software.

The DSPs though - that is really giving me a bit of a pause. An upgrade in the by and by? How am I supposed to spend large dollars on something that is as open ended as that? I don't even think I can properly evaluate reviews of the non-upgraded 800. A change in the DSPs may result in a completely different opinion as to the applicability and performance of the unit.

So if Classe gets this piece into the market in the next 6 months in final form I'd give it consideration. But until then it's not what I would call finished. In 6 months I think I will have made a decision in this area.

I agree, will know alot more in 6 months

I don't think so, sorry. As far as Classe's unweighted measurements go (100-105dB) they are exceptional. A quick snapshot of Krell's finest Evolution Two pre-amplifier shows 97dB (others are strangely a few dB higher) and Parasound's Halo JC-2 104dB. It's doubtful you'll find anyone running anything much higher than what the Classe' SSP-800 provides.

Fair enough.


The heavyweight professionals (virtually ALL of them including Rives, Audyssey, Trinnov) will tell you to leave the job to qualified individuals. Users of such acoustic services will concur. Classe' built the five-band parametric equalizer into the SSP-800 with the expectation that serious listeners would hire the necessary expertise. However, if you are feeling adventurous to DIY, there are tools out there that you can use like ETF although Classe' discourages neophytes from doing so. Classe' has the experience and technical knowhow to determine what the best approach to using certain features is. The choice is left to you to heed their advice or not. If you think about what the overwhelming consensus is telling you, why wouldn't you?


I'm am frequently perplexed by this wayward perception. I ask why? Why do you (and others) feel this way? What technical reason can your furnish that justifies this logic? I am not criticizing you but I see no validity in the stance taken. If you haven't done so already I invite you to read this thread (in its entirety - if you are serious about sound you will) for some useful information. After you read it (IN FULL) and if you still have questions or comments then please by all means share them.


The SSP-800 is a finished product the instant it hits the docks, period. Everything thereafter is gravy baby!

Considering what other manufacturers have done in the past with so called guaranteed upgrades I would want my free upgrade signed in blood (Or at least signed to paper that I would get a full refund if the free upgrade was not provided within 18 months)

The idea of the free upgrade perplexes me anyway. Why not charge $6000 for the non HBR version and then offer the upgrade for $2000 later. Sell the upgraded units for $8000. You will find some people are not interested in the HBR upgrade anyway.

I just wanted to add my thoughts with regards to the perception of importance for including HBR codecs, now I may be misunderstanding a fair bit so feel free to correct me.. but please in a friendly manner

As a european I have been very interested in the progression of DTS-HDMA/TrueHD, and was looking to invest in a product that supported this.

However, as a cynical european it is with concern the progression has consolidated on Blueray, primarily because it seems to me (and probably others) that the specification and manufacturing process is controlled by one company, that company Sony.

This has also been compounded by several different technical changes that can quickly make a product obsolete.
It is bad enough that HDMI standards have made certain products requiring replacement already, however it really annoys me that Sony are tinkering with the specification now of Blueray (specifically the profiles).
So there are many Blueray players over here with a minimum cost of £350 that do not support current profiles, add to this the costs of Blueray disks in europe.

Another crucial fact over here is that multi-region dvd players are a large consideration for households, this is not currently possible on Blueray players and with no timescale when or if it will be offered.
We do realise that films are available as any region, but like other consumers here feel this will change and become region locked as it already is with some studios/films.

So I am really after a technology that is not controlled by a manufacturer (more of an open standard) and not controllable by film studios.
Sadly I feel Blueray fails on both counts.

And this may show in how many actual Blueray players are sold these days; the trend seems to be the purchasing of DVD players that provide quality upscaling with HDMI (and easily made multi-region) rather than Blueray players.

I appreciate it is still early days but the question is will HBR codecs get the mass market opportunity over Blueray, or will Blueray grow so slowly that eventually another technology will replace it before becoming truly mainstream?

This may also explain the reluctance of the high-end developers of supporting HBR and being rather late to market.

So me, I would prefer a product that is cheaper by excluding the headaches outlined above.
Cheers
DT