Outlaw Amps vs. Mark Levinson Amps

Originally Posted by gooomz

thanks for the honest feedback

Originally Posted by Glen B

Outlaw products offer very good performance and value for the money but are not on the same level as Mark Levinson. Sort of like the difference between a Honda Civic and Mercedes Benz S series. If you were to move to a Levinson amp, you would also need to upgrade your source/front end components and speakers to the same level.

Originally Posted by ken6217

Honest feedback? What a crock. You believe this guy? Gee I got a garage full of crap I would love to sell to you.
Ken

Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman

What part of what I said don't you believe? The speaker story? 100% true. Not paying the Mark Levinson premium? That was opinion, and I believe that was fairly clear from how I worded it.

Originally Posted by gooomz

Is there a big difference between outlaw's top of the line 7700 and a Mark Levinson Amp or should i save the extra cash and put it towards speakers?

Originally Posted by FMW

There would certainly be a difference in build and component quality. It is also likely that the Levinson would have a stronger power supply and better heat dissipation for driving difficult loads. I doubt there would much difference in sound under normal circulstances of use in a truly objective listening test. Both should be transparent.

People determine value in different ways. It isn't a very popular position but my own belief relative to audio is that room acoustics are by far the most important element in sound reproduction. The speakers are a distant second and everything else is close to being trivial.

Yes, no need to pile on. I already said it. It isn't a very popular position but at least it is based on many, many years of experience.

Originally Posted by shadow 8

Gee, you could actually listen to each and decide for yourself instead of the "expert" opinions elicited above.

Originally Posted by VTGOLFER

The more and more I get into this addictive hobby the more I believe in this post. To me room acoustics come first, then speakers, then source material and finally amplification and pre/pro or receiver.

This is definately something I think could easily be proven in double blind tests.

Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman

What part of what I said don't you believe? The speaker story? 100% true. Not paying the Mark Levinson premium? That was opinion, and I believe that was fairly clear from how I worded it.

Originally Posted by ken6217

I would say that how a price is derived is not all based on the components that make up the equipment, but on very high end equipment the components and research help to go into the cost. For you to say you wouldn't pay the Mark Levinson premium makes no sense and is a irresponsible statement. The person should take a listen and make up their own mind.

Originally Posted by imromo24

Alot of us newbies don't know what to listen for though...

For instance, I never knew much about flat frequency response, soundstage, high volume clarity, still don't know much about impedance, capacitance.

But after reading enough I do know that my outlaw 2200 way outperforms the built in amps in my yamaha receiver, key information I learned about is "all channels driven"

Now I'm talking the difference between a $300 receiver and (3) channels of separate 200watt amps at $300 each....there I saw a huge difference in performance.

But this increase in performance was the ability to handle higher volumes, and lower volumes are even clearer, large explosions don't tail off and sound muted.

But 2k vs 10k? what would you even listen for?

Originally Posted by FMW

There would certainly be a difference in build and component quality. It is also likely that the Levinson would have a stronger power supply and better heat dissipation for driving difficult loads. I doubt there would much difference in sound under normal circulstances of use in a truly objective listening test. Both should be transparent.

People determine value in different ways. It isn't a very popular position but my own belief relative to audio is that room acoustics are by far the most important element in sound reproduction. The speakers are a distant second and everything else is close to being trivial.

Yes, no need to pile on. I already said it. It isn't a very popular position but at least it is based on many, many years of experience.

Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman

Speakers always have the potential to make a bigger difference than amps. If you were rich, price no object who cares what you buy. But if you actually have to make a choice between amps or speakers, I wouldn't pay the Mark Levinson premium.

I spoke to a friend of a friend at a party who used to build and sell speakers. His speakers weren't selling that well. Someone told him to RAISE the price. They sold better. Consider that when thinking of buying very expensive audio gear. It's not a secret that people assume a higher price means a better product.

Originally Posted by Peter Tribeman

I have to agree and disagree with your post:

Concerning room acoustics, I could not agree more. If you have a poor room, It makes no difference what electronics or speakers you have. Everything will sound poor. (In particular, those of you with extremely "live" rooms have a major problem)

Concerning you comment that the Levinson has a stronger power supply and better heat dissipation for driving difficult loads- well that it just not the case. (Please visit UltimateAVmag.com and conduct a search for Outlaw in the amplifier area. That is how we build everything.

As for the differences you hear comparing a Levinson to an Outlaw, I am not going to touch that one at all. That is for each customer to evaluate on his own.

However, for the record, there is no speaker load that an Outlaw amplifier cannot drive perfectly no matter how "difficult" it is. Our amps will not overheat, current limit, or shut down. That is fact and has been the case since we introduced our first power amplifier, nearly nine years ago.

Best Regards,

Peter Tribeman

Originally Posted by khewa

that's because most people don't know what are the speaker specs they should be looking out for , let alone decide with their ears. So, the only spec they know is that the more expensive, the better it is. It is a Universal Truth. Forget about specs and measurements and audition. They will tell you they paid $100k for the speakers and brush aside all the measurement figures you throw at them.
err... Bose speaks to this group of people. Tell your friend to learn marketing from Bose. Engineering is passe these days. The successful company is the one with the best marketing folks and with manufacturing plants in China or India.

Originally Posted by FMW

I don't see any disagreement. I see some additional information. I said "likely." I said that specifically because I didn't know the answer, never having used either product. It was an assumption and posted that way. It's hard to discuss audio without uncovering personal agendas. No need to take things personally. I didn't criticize your product. I tried to respond to another post.

Now I will comment to you. You said "As for the differences you hear comparing a Levinson to an Outlaw, I am not going to touch that one at all. That is for each customer to evaluate on his own." I think that is a cop out. Why don't you run a properly conducted objective test and report the findings? Assuming your products have a flat frequency response, low noise floor and inaudible distortion, they should amplify without any coloration. I assume that is true without even reviewing the measurements. You can correct me if I'm wrong. I have no reason to think either your amp or the Levinson are not competently designed. I have no reason to think they would sound any different from one another. Do you? If there is an objective audible difference between your amp and a Levinson, then that should be measurable, quantifiable, explainable and easy to report.

Originally Posted by gooomz

Is there a big difference between outlaw's top of the line 7700 and a Mark Levinson Amp or should i save the extra cash and put it towards speakers?

Originally Posted by shadow 8

You are just as qualified to make this judgment as any one else and since you are spending your hard earned money, your opinion is most important any way since you will live with the decision you make. This hobby is supposed to be about fun so just go listen and enjoy.

Originally Posted by Peter Tribeman

FMW,

Thanks for your response. I did not take anything you wrote personally. It was just important for us to point out that your "likely" speculation on power supply and heat management was just not the case in fact.

To answer your suggestion, first our amplifiers are perfectly flat, do indeed have a really low noise floor and have inaudible distortion. Many reviewers declare them "neutral" which has always been our goal.

As for our running a "properly conducted objective test " and reporting the findings, that would always be suspect in a customer's mind. In principle, we have no objections to A/B shootouts. However, they should not be conducted by any party ( such as us) that would have a direct economic interest in the outcome. Imagine if Audi conducted an objective test of one of its models against a BMW and subsequently declared that their car handled better. It might be the case, but I wouldn't trust Audi to tell me that, no matter how much data they provided.

That is why we have a thirty day evaluation period with our products. We expect in some cases A/B comparisons and we are very comfortable with that. In any event, perceptions, realities and prejudices tend to all blur in things like this. Therefore we choose to let others make the comparisons that reveal differences or in some cases, similarities. My objective in posting earlier was to lay out some facts that are substantiated by objective measurements in an independent review.



Best Regards,

Peter Tribeman

Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman

Speakers always have the potential to make a bigger difference than amps. If you were rich, price no object who cares what you buy. But if you actually have to make a choice between amps or speakers, I wouldn't pay the Mark Levinson premium.

I spoke to a friend of a friend at a party who used to build and sell speakers. His speakers weren't selling that well. Someone told him to RAISE the price. They sold better. Consider that when thinking of buying very expensive audio gear. It's not a secret that people assume a higher price means a better product.