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Lambda drivers

post #1 of 188
Thread Starter 
Does anyone know why when the last of the Lambda drivers are gone there will be no more (if I am reading their webpage correctly)? From their pricing page: Lambda Acoustics CLOSEOUT Pricing . The reason I ask is I am thinking of making putting together a speaker design. I am thinking of a WWMMT for left and right and than MTM for the center. My thoughts so far the 10 Lambda's with PHL mid and as of yet undetermined tweeter. I know getting drivers before having a fully put together design is probably very backwards but I have read where these drivers are highly thought of and if they are going to be discontinued I thought of picking some up.
post #2 of 188
Might try emptying your browser's cache more often than every 5yrs.....

Lambda has been out of business for a very long time.

JohnJ at AE Speakers bought the Lambda inventory and can make most of the Lambda designs...http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/vie...5bb0abf75c6d46
post #3 of 188
Thread Starter 
OK, cannot stop laughing. I had seen there name mentioned in the below thread, so I just googled them and got to their page. I guess those are "really" not available anymore. I will take a look at the page you referenced. Thanks.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=972408&page=5
post #4 of 188
Thread Starter 
Looking over at AESpeakers web page, they do not make any 10" drivers anymore.
post #5 of 188
We bought out most of the remaining inventory from Lambda back about 4 yrs ago now. We have since been continuing to make all of their drivers. Only the TD series will make it to our standard product line, but any of their past drivers can be made at custom request.

We do make the 10" Lambda drivers as well. We just recently used the TD10X's in a recording studio for Nick Barnett that I collaborated with Mark Seaton on. You can see some info here:

http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/vie...p?p=3513#p3513

We actually took and edited pics of the TD10's and TD12's for the website last week. We should have pics of the TD15's done this week and then can soon update the website with all the info. In the meantime if you are looking for info on the drivers you can still see the old site on the web archive here:

http://web.archive.org/web/200306022.../products.html

If there are specific drivers you're looking for, let me know.

John
post #6 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by exojam View Post

Does anyone know why when the last of the Lambda drivers are gone there will be no more (if I am reading their webpage correctly)? From their pricing page: Lambda Acoustics CLOSEOUT Pricing . The reason I ask is I am thinking of making putting together a speaker design. I am thinking of a WWMMT for left and right and than MTM for the center. My thoughts so far the 10 Lambda's with PHL mid and as of yet undetermined tweeter. I know getting drivers before having a fully put together design is probably very backwards but I have read where these drivers are highly thought of and if they are going to be discontinued I thought of picking some up.

I guess I should comment on the original post too. Are you also going with a separate subwoofer? If you are, you could easily do something with the TD10M's just mated to a compression driver, ribbon, coaxial, etc. Good options would be the B&C 8" coaxial we used in Nick's system, the 8" coaxial from 18sound, the neopro 5i ribbon by fountek, etc. The response on the TD10M's can easily extend upwards of 5KHz on axis and to 2KHz off axis. We use them in some bass guitar cabinets where they are called to play nearly fullrange, up to over 10KHz on axis. I don't doubt the PHL is a good driver, but the Lambda's are known for their superior midbass. Not to mention with the pair of TD10M's and something like the Fountek tweeter, you'd have a system at in around 100dB 1w/1m. Build 3 vertical MTM's for the 3 fronts and you have an amazingly efficient system, well controlled vertically to eliminate reflections, and having all 3 the same gives you the same tone all across.

John
post #7 of 188
Hi John. Funny you should mention a 10" with Fountek neo5, because this is the exact setup I would like to build for phatplanetstudios where I am the technician. We will be using a dedicated sub, but would like high efficiency and great dynamic impact. Recommend the 10M's or the TD10X's?
Could you let me know what a set of 4 of either choice would go for and the appox. lead time you need? Either on here or private :

speakerguy at hotmail.com

Thanks so much. Greg Begland
post #8 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbegland View Post

Hi John. Funny you should mention a 10" with Fountek neo5, because this is the exact setup I would like to build for phatplanetstudios where I am the technician. We will be using a dedicated sub, but would like high efficiency and great dynamic impact. Recommend the 10M's or the TD10X's?
Could you let me know what a set of 4 of either choice would go for and the appox. lead time you need? Either on here or private :

speakerguy at hotmail.com

Thanks so much. Greg Begland

Hi Greg,

I'll send an email off in the morning. Got a phone call and I'm up at 3am but don't have access to my email here. haha I googled phatplanetstudios and see you are in orlando area? Did you buy drivers from Lambda in the past? If you checked out the studio we did in the link above, notice we used 4 15" drivers in vented enclosures for the low end in that system. In reality the 4 10" drivers alone were quite impressive down to 25hz or so in that room, but we wanted the 10hz extension. System will do upwards of 110dB in room all the way down to 10hz. Works amazing for hearing and getting rid of that low end stuff that just shouldn't be there.

If you are going to use a sub and the high efficiency ribbon, I'd go with the TD10M's. They have less Xmax, but more efficiency and higher extension giving you more room to play with the xover point. The cloth surround is more well behaved than the foam, although the foam is hand coated and is quite well damped too so the TDX can do 2KHz as well. I think based on efficiency though the TD10M would be a better match. I've actually been debating a project like this for myself for awhile so lets talk and maybe I can help you out with the design. Are you planning to go active or passive for the xover? Active would be easy, but due to the flat impedance of the ribbon and the nearly flat impedance of the TD10's, it would be quite easy to do passively as well.

John
post #9 of 188
Thread Starter 
John,

Thank you very much for the information. I will be honest here and let you know that this is my first attempt at a speaker build. It sounds like what Greg is looking for is something I would be interested in also. I do have a separate sub in the room. At least for my setup I would need to go passive on the crossover and am not locked into a particular style of tweeter. If there is anyway you could provide me the information that you are sending to Greg that would be great to review. Again, thanks for your time and help.

James
post #10 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

We bought out most of the remaining inventory from Lambda back about 4 yrs ago now. We have since been continuing to make all of their drivers. Only the TD series will make it to our standard product line, but any of their past drivers can be made at custom request.

John

John:
You don't happen to have a pair of the Lambda Unity horns sitting around you would let go do ya'? (Or know where to get some)

Chuck
post #11 of 188
Thread Starter 
John,

I just have a follow question up on your comment about having all three speakers in the vertical position. Would it be possible to place the center in a horizontal position? I was thinking the tweeter (if ribbon) could be rotated. Since I am a beginner at this, would that throw the sound quality off? The reason I ask is my center channel sits on top of my RPTV (see picture below). Thanks again for your help and advice.


post #12 of 188
In addition to John's loudspeaker recipe. Another favorite is;

A classic 3 way loudspeaker design using modern drivers.

*Higher sensitivity drivers like high end true ribbons or planars

*PHL audio mids; PHL 1120 [6.5"], PHL 2520 [8"], PHL 3450 [10"]. If you want midwoofers instead, PHL1340 or
PHL 1240 [16 ohm].

* Lambda TD12X or TD15X woofers [with faraday motor].

If you did a fully active system with amplifiers with
higher headroom like pro audio amps, you are in for a
treat. But you don't have to, the PHL mids won't require
complex crossoverr. They have less problems due to their
paper treated cones. They are tolerable with no low pass
filter if you did an audition whereas other popular mids have a nasty
sound, hence those designs have very steep crossover slopes to
filter out the crud. If the driver sounds nice with no low pass,
then it will have no problems operating with a simple crossover,
even a silly 1st order low pass can be a great choice.

Lambda TD12/TD15 are amazing with no low pass. Unlike
a traditional woofer design that will sound nasty in the higher
frequency range, the low inductance design + phase plug + paper treated cone,
makes the large Lambda pretty much sound like a big quality midrange driver
that has high xmax and the ability to do lower bass. A crossover for this can be very simple too!
[I'm basing this off the original Lambda's made by Nick @ Lambda. I haven't use the John
hand crafted Lambda's, I can only assume it's equal or better]. If you use the Lambda,
just verify that you have the super low inductance motor design included, phase plug
and treated paper cone.

The tweeter you choose will probably need a more complex
crossover, it depends. If you push your tweeter to higher SPL levels, then I would use a steeper slope crossover as a
way to get more power handing on the tweeter, to protect it. I also like fusing tweeters.

Here is some project pics from others.

'Substrates' loudspeaker: Raven ribbons, PHL 6.5" midwoofers, Lambda TD12X.
http://members.shaw.ca/lcleven/home_page1.html
http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/sh...d.php?t=191130

AR2's Loudspeaker: Esg ribbons, PHL 10" pure midrange, Lambda SD12.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...threadid=21523
[notes: You need to register with diyaudio.com to see this. You can use TD series instead of SD series]

Taken from diyaudio.com. It's a Fountek ribbon, Audax PR170M0 pure midrange, Lambda TD15X.
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/lambda/speaker-3.jpg

note: PR170M0 has a similar sonic character to PHL 1120.

Feandil's [CAF username] loudspeaker: DIY ribbon later he said it was
replaced with AC brand ribbon, dual PHL 1120 pure mids, dual Lambda TD15X.
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/lambda/speaker-4.jpg

Feandil's inspiration for cabinet design was the Avalon Sentinel.
http://www.avalonacoustics.com/

All these designs have many things in common which gives you the final
SQ of the system. The cabinet design can be anything you want. If you
use ribbons or planar tweeters, then just make sure the tweeter is aimed
at the listener for best results as the vertical dispersion is not as good as a dome
tweeter. Exception to this rule is if you use the very small ribbons, short elements,
ie, certain LCY ribbons, the new Raven 'point source' ribbon, etc.

If you look at Feandil's design, he aimed the tweeter section down as the ribbon
is optimized for the seating position when listening to music.
post #13 of 188
Thread Starter 
Thy,

Thank you for your information here and in the PM. I believe John is speaking of a design I would really be interested in. I am limiting myself to a 10 driver due to cabinet width. My thought is, with a 10 driver I will be looking at a minimum width of 12 on the cabinet and do not want to go past that. The information he posted (if I read it correctly), would allow the 10 to cover both bass and mid and than be crossed to a tweeter. Leaving only the crossover to the tweeter to made. If this design could go down to say 30-40HZ than my sub can easily take it from there. I would not be running active crossovers on this and would be pushing them with a Rotel RMB1075. I am thinking a tower for the L-R and smaller box for the center. With the towers I would assume internally the drivers would be inside their own sealed compartment leaving the rest of the inside not used. I hope that part makes sense. Just to throw some more information out there. I use my existing system for everything from movies, music and gaming. I am looking for (and I hate this part) speakers that at most any level I can here each part of what is playing. Also, when I crank it past 100db and am doing work around the house, the singer does not sound like he has been smoking 5 packs of cigs. I know that may not be the best way to describe things and that's I hate to try but there we go. Thanks.

James
post #14 of 188
Thanks for the quick reply John. We are currently planning on going active. We have a Crown K2 and a Bryston in the wings waiting to be used. I will probably do initial set-up and testing with my DCX2496 and then see where is goes from there. As you can see from the web site, the control room is not that large. Actually, we just did a huge acoustic make-over, ripped out the drop ceiling grid, raised the ceiling up by several feet and added tons of odd angles. Came out really well and now that that project is done, we are ready to move on the monitors and get those Quested pieces of junk out of there. Get me some prices on the different versions of the 10's whenever you've got a moment. Thanks again.

Greg Begland

ps. I never bought anything from Nick when he was still around here in business, but I did live in walking distance from his old shop and hung out there a few times. He also visited the studio WAY back before it was nearly as nice as is it now.
post #15 of 188
Your using the K2's full range? I'd use XTI's but if you have tested it and feel it sounds good, go for it. I have not seen much endorsement for class D full range, if you want full range to class AB or I, if you aren't doing subs, class H's are a HF beast.
post #16 of 188
I, like those whom have posted in this thread, like loud clean music/movies. I have two pairs of Cerwin Vega LS-12's I'm wanting to replace, because I need better sound quality. I really love the output I get with them, but believed I couldn't keep my output and have good quality sound without going with expensive line array's. Now with all this pro-audio-drivers talk that's been going on in a few of these threads, it seems like it could still be possible to get ear bleeding output that I like, while maintaining the quality that I need. Is this possible?

John_E_J, referring to the MTM you mentioned...
What kind of beaming will one get using TD10m's as a mid?
Is it necessary to use the Faraday motor, or do you even offer any other options?
Can your MTM design acheive the same quality sound with simple passive XO's of say these designs, but with 10db more sensitivity?
post #17 of 188
Actually the K2's are for the woofers and the Brystons are for the ribbons. We had a Crown Studio Reference years ago, but sold it....too bad. THAT was a beast!

Greg

Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

Your using the K2's full range? I'd use XTI's but if you have tested it and feel it sounds good, go for it. I have not seen much endorsement for class D full range, if you want full range to class AB or I, if you aren't doing subs, class H's are a HF beast.
post #18 of 188
Ok, sorry its been awhile for me to get back on here. Anyone want to help out and do some of my work for me? haha Anyway, a few comments on the dual TD10M/NeoPro5i system. First I think we should put things into perspective on what this system will be capable of. This will be an extremely accurate system with high efficiency, capable of monitoring in nearly any studio application. Mated with a proper subwoofer these will be a true studio reference quality system. My plan is to eventually offer these as a powered, semi portable, solution to recording studios, but throughout the design and build I will also offer them as a DIY system with a passive crossover design.

By nature, ribbon tweeters have a fairly narrow vertical bandwidth. Most I have worked with had a range of about 5 degrees both above and below to work with, but within that +/- 5degree range are very smooth and have very little variation. They also have very good horizontal dispersion. The MTM design by nature has well controlled vertical dispersion and good horizontal so the TD10's can match quite well to the ribbon. So, by design you can expect very good horizontal, up to about 120 degrees with a limited vertical response.

The vertical dispersion makes some things happen that can be good or bad. The good thing is with the reflections being well eliminated by design, ceiling reflections and as a result, ceiling treatment, becomes less critical. The other thing is that it means vertical placement is more critical. However, you need to be within this vertical window to get the benefits of the tweeter. As an example, the ribbon height itself is 5.7". If you are listening at an 8ft distance, this gives you a pattern height of about 22.5", at 10ft you're at about 27", at 15ft about 37". For a studio or dedicated 2 channel listening room this is ideal as you are almost always at the same vertical height for listening. For a theater room it can work well also as long as your vertical placement is correct and you define your listening height. For the LCR, it is typically quite easy as you are at a far enough distance away. Even if you were sitting only 8ft from the screen and LCR, which is quite close, you can cover a range of 22.5" high. A very tall person sitting straight up in a chair would have an ear height at no more than 35" from the seat. I am 6ft tall and my ear height when sitting perfectly straight is about 30". My soon to be 3yr old daughter has an ear height of something like 16". She won't ever sit still to really let me measure her exactly. Anyway, point being that for every height of person, sitting up fully, slouching, etc at 8ft away, a 22.5" vertical window should be enough to cover the whole range. As you get farther away or get back to a second row of seating you have even more vertical coverage. So the LCR is pretty easy. The surrounds, depending on how they are set in the room would give less of a vertical window so would be more particular to vertical placement. Luckily the surround program material is typically less critical than the LCR. The ribbons also don't completely drop off after 5degrees, but roll off more at higher frequencies first, just like any other tweeter.

The efficiency of both the TD10's and NeoPro are also very high and match well. You can expect near 100dB with 1w input power. Mark Seaton really got me hooked on the high efficiency stuff recently when we did Nick's recording studio. There is just something about effortless sound when with 10W you can reach levels that most speakers require hundreds of watts to achieve. You also have great headroom available for transient peaks.

Again this is something I would like to pursue myself. I have a few applications these would work quite well for and have been planning on something similar for awhile. We are currently building all the Lambda drivers to order with about a 1 week lead time, so they are available. I'm actually expecting pictures and info to go up on the website for all the Lambda TD woofers quite soon.

John
post #19 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

The other thing is that it means vertical placement is more critical. However, you need to be within this vertical window to get the benefits of the tweeter. As an example, the ribbon height itself is 5.7". If you are listening at an 8ft distance, this gives you a pattern height of about 22.5", at 10ft you're at about 27", at 15ft about 37". For a studio or dedicated 2 channel listening room this is ideal as you are almost always at the same vertical height for listening.
John

A lot of my years spent in the studio environment had people/band members/producer/etc. standing around the console which is at the sweet spot. Everyone wanted to hear what the engineer and producer were hearing so that they could 'help'. By definition I would think vertical dispersion could become an issue as someone sitting down and listening might stand up and lose the high end of the mix. Or people in the sweet spot of the vertical dispersion would hear it much differently than the people standing behind them. Just a thought.

Chuck
post #20 of 188
Thread Starter 
OK, since I do not know I will ask those who do. I have never owned any speakers with ribbons in them. In the talk of the vertical dispersion and basically inside or outside of this dispersion pattern, is it so apparent when you go outside of it, that you say, damn, half the sound is now gone? Thanks.
post #21 of 188
Thread Starter 
John,

Is there a reason why you would be looking at a "TD10M/NeoPro5i system", instead of a "TD10X/NeoPro5i system"? Is the thinking for a dedicated sub to pick off where the 10M leaves off? Thanks.
post #22 of 188
That is definitely the reason to do it. Even though these drivers are technically capable of the whole frequency band, it just doesn't work out because you don't want your midrange driver moving at 10mm xmax at 30Hz while its doing content at 1.5Khz. This creates a very odd sounding distortion similar to speaking in front of a fan and letting the blades chop up the soundwaves.

Now at lower outputs, this isn't a problem at all, but the lambda's are capable of so very much, its a shame to cripple them if you can avoid it.
post #23 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

Anyway, a few comments on the dual TD10M/NeoPro5i system. First I think we should put things into perspective on what this system will be capable of. This will be an extremely accurate system with high efficiency, capable of monitoring in nearly any studio application. Mated with a proper subwoofer these will be a true studio reference quality system. My plan is to eventually offer these as a powered, semi portable, solution to recording studios, but throughout the design and build I will also offer them as a DIY system with a passive crossover design.

What about the demanding individual wanting to use those monitors in their home theater, but cannot do a vertical standing center. What is this said individual to do if they want a "voice matched" center?

Quote:
Originally Posted by exojam View Post

John,

Is there a reason why you would be looking at a "TD10M/NeoPro5i system", instead of a "TD10X/NeoPro5i system"? Is the thinking for a dedicated sub to pick off where the 10M leaves off? Thanks.

With the availability of inexpensive, yet very capable sub drivers, there's no excuse NOT to build a sub. Even crossing the sub over to the mains at 60hz relieves a lot of stress from the mains. If you're going to spend the money on four TD10M's and two fountek 5i's (six and three if also building a center), there's no reason why you shouldn't spend just a tad more and get four or more Tempest-X's or even two or more SDX-15's or RL-p18's.
post #24 of 188
Ok now this is more like the info I was looking for in my thread..."High End LCR's"

Nate
post #25 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

there's no reason why you shouldn't spend just a tad more and get four or more Tempest-X's or even two or more SDX-15's or RL-p18's.

X2 on the above, I almost think Kevin put the 4 sub packages up there not so much to offer a nice deal, but more to stick th idea in our brains "hmm, four tempests, I wonder how that would feel?"
post #26 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nasty N8 View Post

Ok now this is more like the info I was looking for in my thread..."High End LCR's"

Nate

What is said here is what was said in your thread.

*******************************************
armystud mentioned a ribbon, PHL, lambda design.
Post #11

Me @ post #71

and Jay_WJ ruining the thread
********************************************

What is being mentioned in this thread is also ribbon, PHL, lambda, along with B&C coax, and specifically, the TD10X
Lambda and TD10M Lambda.

Your thread showed links to 12" and 15" designs using
Lambda. Also, if John is keeping the same design and
nomenclature as the 'original Lambda', the TD10M should
be optimized for midrange; lower xmax, accordian surround, higher sensitivity than 'X' Lambda's. Lambda's
were offered in H [lowest Q], X [medium Q], S [highest Q], so the TD10X would be the medium Q driver.
I have Lambda TD15H, the lowest Q drivers.

A driver that would compete with TD10M, to name one,
PHL 3450. You can substitute the TD10M with PHL 3450
to mate with a higher sensitivity ribbon, ideally one with
at least 100dB rating. This thread has such a design.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...threadid=21523

[register if needed to see the link]



I'm going to make a wild guess, I think John will have lower pricing on the TD10 series
than a 10" PHL. Both are great drivers. Your biggest problem is finding tweeters for
high sensitivity sound systems, the list is very small unless you want compression drivers/horns
which there is plenty of.
post #27 of 188
Original Lambda Yahoo User's Group

Post #1 - Nick @ 1999
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/L...messages/1?l=1

You can read all about the drama of starting your own business.
post #28 of 188
Thread Starter 
I do have a very rocking sonotube, a TC2000-15 being powered by a Crown XTi 1000. Now I surely know this is not an IB setup or what some others have here, but it was recently built and since adding the Crown makes me very happy. It will be here until the wife says she wants the "space" back, than the IB will go in. I am also looking into getting dedicated 20 amp lines ran, plus a balanced power rig so no change in subwoofer. Plus, I think with what John is talking about would be right up my alley. Thy has been helping me with looking at a DIY speaker setup and some times for a first timer things can get overwhelming very fast. So something like this from a respected person would be great. Looney, I think we are in the same boat that the center channel would need to horizontal.
post #29 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by chasw98 View Post

A lot of my years spent in the studio environment had people/band members/producer/etc. standing around the console which is at the sweet spot. Everyone wanted to hear what the engineer and producer were hearing so that they could 'help'. By definition I would think vertical dispersion could become an issue as someone sitting down and listening might stand up and lose the high end of the mix. Or people in the sweet spot of the vertical dispersion would hear it much differently than the people standing behind them. Just a thought.

Chuck

This is one of the things that has to be weighed in a system like this to determine what you want or need. From the recording engineer or producer's position, they need everything critically accurate. Not to mention they don't typically want everyone's "help". You want to hear exactly what is recorded without interaction from the control room. The narrow vertical coverage of the ribbons provides this, along with the 10" drivers in the MTM configuration. From my experience with other control rooms using everything from Mackie monitors to big in-wall TAD monitors, the room interaction itself can be enough to vary the response greatly from the sitting and standing position. It's typically easier to put someone in the proper position than it is to fix reflections in the room.

SLS has made ribbon tweeters famous for recording studios, live sound reproduction, etc. They aren't for every application, but IMO the recording studio, and a properly setup theater room are applications they can excel in.

John
post #30 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by exojam View Post

OK, since I do not know I will ask those who do. I have never owned any speakers with ribbons in them. In the talk of the vertical dispersion and basically inside or outside of this dispersion pattern, is it so apparent when you go outside of it, that you say, damn, half the sound is now gone? Thanks.

I have used ribbons for quite awhile. I actually brought the RTW2 in from Silver Flute back in 2001, before Madisound and Parts Express began bringing them in. The following is an image of the vertical dispersion of that tweeter:



It is not as telling as it should be as the first vertical line is at 15 degrees off axis vertically. It's also not for the Fountek tweeter. I'll do some more in depth vertical curves on the Fountek as I can. A standard dome tweeter will not drop off as quickly off axis, but the issue with that is then again from the reflections. It is much easier to deal with a smooth rolloff as you get out of the "sweet spot" than it is to deal with peaks, dips, etc from the reflections. You also can get nowhere near the efficiency from a dome tweeter, and the response of a compression driver is greatly at the mercy of the horn you put it in.

In any MTM design, whether it is a pair of 6.5" drivers with a dome tweeter, or something like this, you have the same issue with control in the vertical pattern. As you get above or below the "beam" you begin to lose output. The same goes with an MTM sitting sideways on the TV, but then you have the controlled horizontal dispersion. The key is to have that same controlled dispersion in both the tweeter and the woofer section, and the MTM with the ribbon can do this quite well.

John
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