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Need 7.1 Speakers for HT ($10k budget) Room 17w x 27L x 8H

post #1 of 36
Thread Starter 
I'm Building new Home Theater and unfortunately live in a small community nd do not have any professional stores or installers within 200 miles. Please do not recommend that I go to a store and demo the speakers.

I have called a few speaker companies and they recommend that a installer in the area to come out to my home. When the installer came out, it was apparent that what I was trying to do was out of his league.

I'm tired of contractors/installers/retail stores not looking out for my best interest and pushing the wrong items and charging a high prices. I've decided if you want it down right...I need to have more information.

1) What brands should I look at? I'm not interested in brands that are mass marketed.

2) What size do I need? I was thinking about the following...

Mains (L&R)
Dual 6.5 Carbon Fiber Mid-Woofers
1 Silk Tweeter

Center Channel
Dual 6.5 Carbon Fiber Mid-Woofers
1 Silk Tweeter

Surround (L&R)
- Dual 5.25 Poly Mid-Woofers

Rear Speakers (L&R)
6.5 Carbon Fiber Mid-Woofe
1 Silk Tweeter

Powered Subwoofer
12 PVA

Thanks!!!
post #2 of 36
Here's a start http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/...68,37,179.aspx you can order a system or ala'cart. the specs are what you are looking for.
post #3 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by therightstuff View Post

I'm not interested in brands that are mass marketted

I'm guessing that you figure you would be paying an extra mark up? Personally, I have a bias for PSB speakers (disclaimer: I grew up with the company), which most people consider to be an exceptional bang for the buck, but maybe they are too mass market?

I find it a little odd that you have specific driver combinations in mind; different designs do very different things with different drivers: a ported 6.5" driver could be very different from one with passive radiator or a sealed system. Is this an aesthetic / size type goal or something else?

Here are a couple of PSB systems, some have a MRSP over your limit but you should be able to find them for less:

PSB in cabinet systems

PSB Platinum system

PSB in wall system

The Platinum system here in a 7.1 system would be outright amazing in a room of your size if your room treatments are good. The hidden 7.1 system would also be really amazing.

The one thing you don't tell us is whether the speakers will be hidden or exposed, whether you have any special boundary conditions (eg. a bar at the back of the room ore similar) or room constraints to deal with and what your room treatments will be like. Another question is whether you've already got your amplification in place or decided? If so, do you have load constraints (eg. require loads greater than 4 ohms, max power limits)?
post #4 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by therightstuff View Post

I'm Building new Home Theater and unfortunately live in a small community nd do not have any professional stores or installers within 200 miles. Please do not recommend that I go to a store and demo the speakers.

I have called a few speaker companies and they recommend that a installer in the area to come out to my home. When the installer came out, it was apparent that what I was trying to do was out of his league.

I'm tired of contractors/installers/retail stores not looking out for my best interest and pushing the wrong items and charging a high prices. I've decided if you want it down right...I need to have more information.

1) What brands should I look at? I'm not interested in brands that are mass marketed.

2) What size do I need? I was thinking about the following...

Mains (L&R)
Dual 6.5” Carbon Fiber Mid-Woofers
1” Silk Tweeter

Center Channel
Dual 6.5” Carbon Fiber Mid-Woofers
1” Silk Tweeter

Surround (L&R)
- Dual 5.25” Poly Mid-Woofers

Rear Speakers (L&R)
6.5” Carbon Fiber Mid-Woofe
1” Silk Tweeter

Powered Subwoofer
12” PVA

Thanks!!!

I have a couple of suggestions.

One is to make a drawing of your room, showing the location of doors, windows, and walls and indicating any preferences for where you are thinking of positioning the equipment; e.g., speakers, TV / video display, seating, and equipment rack.

Do you already have familiarity with certain speaker brands? If so, which speakers, and what do you like and not like about them?

How loudly do you want to be able to play your system?

I would not focus too much on speaker specifics, like the type of tweeter or size of a driver. I would pay some attention to efficiency depending on how much you want to spend on amplification.

By saying you are not interested in mass market speakers, I assume you mean brands like Bose and / or inexpensive speakers found in Circuit City / Best Buy. There are many good brands of speakers, some produced in very large quanties all the way down to very small direct order producers. My recommendation is to concentrate on audio quality and value.

If you cannot audition, then I would read through other comparison threads at AVS for trends in how speakers sound, or see what people recommend here. There are many brands and many choices in high quality speakers.

For specific recommendations, I own Dali speakers, have been extremely pleased with them, and highly recommend the models with ribbon tweeters; e.g., Helicon, Mentor, and Ikon. What I like is they are very detailed, yet smooth, not harsh. They are well balanced across the frequency range, not too thin and not too heavy. And, they sound good both at low volume and high volume.

Thanks
Bruce
post #5 of 36
Thread Starter 
Thanks for your replies! I heard alot of good thing about the following items and was thinking about considering the following.

Speakers

Mains -Focal JM Lab - Chorus 836 V (Qty 2)
Center - Focal JM Lab - Chorus CC 800 V (Qty 2)
Rear - Focal JM Lab - Chorus 807 V (Qty 2)
Surround - Focal JM Lab - Chorus SR 800 V (Qty 2)
Sub - Velodyne DD12 (Qty 2)

Powered by:

KRELL Showcase Processor
KRELL Showcase Amp

Thanks again!!!
post #6 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by therightstuff View Post

Thanks for your replies! I heard alot of good thing about the following items and was thinking about considering the following.

Speakers

Mains -Focal JM Lab - Chorus 836 V (Qty 2)
Center - Focal JM Lab - Chorus CC 800 V (Qty 2)
Rear - Focal JM Lab - Chorus 807 V (Qty 2)
Surround - Focal JM Lab - Chorus SR 800 V (Qty 2)
Sub - Velodyne DD12 (Qty 2)

Powered by:

KRELL Showcase Processor
KRELL Showcase Amp

Thanks again!!!

I have not heard that line of Focal speakers.

Are you looking for used electronics? I did a quick peek at the Krell web site and did not see the Showcase units listed. Reason I looked was to check and see if they ever added DPLIIx to the Showcase. They had not been offering DPLIIx, only DPLII, and for that reason I would not recommend the Showcase for a 7.1 system.

Thanks
Bruce
post #7 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by therightstuff View Post

Thanks for your replies! I heard alot of good thing about the following items and was thinking about considering the following.

Speakers

Mains -Focal JM Lab - Chorus 836 V (Qty 2)
Center - Focal JM Lab - Chorus CC 800 V (Qty 2)
Rear - Focal JM Lab - Chorus 807 V (Qty 2)
Surround - Focal JM Lab - Chorus SR 800 V (Qty 2)
Sub - Velodyne DD12 (Qty 2)

Powered by:

KRELL Showcase Processor
KRELL Showcase Amp

Thanks again!!!

Focal, I can beat those, with this suggestion, JBL Performance Series. This is JBL's top of the line dome tweeter based system, all Titanium drivers, which is very similar to Revel Speaker lines.
In fact, Revel, like JBL, is part of Harman International.
The Performance Series PT800, PC600 will shine to the max connected to Krell.
The PT800s can be wall mounted, mounted to their matching subs. And connected various ways to the gear, including being run full range, when mounted to the subs.
These speakers are smooth, dynamic, some of the most neutral speakers I've ever heard. They are available through JBL Synthesis Dealers. Also available on the Harman online store
(usually refurbs) @ $1050/ea.
There are also in-walls available.
I'm running PT800s with revel subs.
The link below shows all the speaker models in the Performance Series.

http://www.jbl.com/home/products/ser...=US&Region=USA

http://www.revelspeakers.com/
post #8 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by therightstuff View Post


1) What brands should I look at? I'm not interested in brands that are mass marketed.

2) What size do I need? I was thinking about the following...

Thanks!!!

Lot's of good suggestions here, but to me it seems people didn't address your two main requirements...I'm also a big fan of PSB, and I think you cannot go wrong with their offerings. PSB is not mass market, but extremely popular, so if you are looking to being exclusive, PSB is not for you. But, their sound is very good. If you want to close your eyes and get them, the best price and service I found it at Saturday Audio in Chicago. Call Andy at their 800 number (www.saturdayaudio.com). They also have Spendor, which is even better, and more exclusive.

Now, if you really want a customized system for your house. By a company that in no way is mass market, that caters to people that want some of the best, look no further than Salk Sound (www.salksound.com). Their speaker are reviewed constantly and always compared to speakers that cost three or four times their price, and Salk is not cheap, but within your budget. Salk will work personally with you to get you what you need, plus they will do custom finishes (endless options) for your speakers.
post #9 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by therightstuff View Post

Thanks for your replies! I heard alot of good thing about the following items and was thinking about considering the following.

Speakers

Mains -Focal JM Lab - Chorus 836 V (Qty 2)
Center - Focal JM Lab - Chorus CC 800 V (Qty 2)
Rear - Focal JM Lab - Chorus 807 V (Qty 2)
Surround - Focal JM Lab - Chorus SR 800 V (Qty 2)
Sub - Velodyne DD12 (Qty 2)

Powered by:

KRELL Showcase Processor
KRELL Showcase Amp

Thanks again!!!

I'm sure the system you propose would sound terrific. However, in each category, (speakers, sub, pre/pro and amp), I'm sure you could find better values that would give you all the same performance for less money, (or better performance for the same money) .

For example, the Integra DTC 9.8 Pre/Pro will do everything the Krell will do PLUS it will switch HDMI 1.3a and decode all the latest audio formats, (Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio), PLUS it has Audyssey MultiEQ XT, (Pro-Ready), a Reon Video Processor for upscaling all sources to 1080p, and a whole host of other modern amenities. At an MSRP of $1,600, it's probably cheaper than a used Krell.
http://www.integrahometheater.com/mo...=Separates&p=i

For a power amp, the Emotive MPS-2 will almost double to output of the Krell and it's only $1,699 for a 7.1 channel amp.
http://www.emotiva.com/mps2.html
The pair will cost $3,300 leaving you $6,700 for speakers and sub(s).

For subs, you could get a pair of the av123 MFW-15's that'll blow the doors off the Velo DD-12's for 1/3 the price.
http://www.**********/products_produc...s&product=15.1
If you want the Velo EQ add an SMS-1.
http://www.velodyne.com/products/pro...5&sid=231r380q
Two subs and the EQ will cost ~ $1,800, leaving you ~ $5K for speakers.

For speakers, there are *lots* of speakers in the price range of the Focals that provide as good or better value. Even within the Focal 800 Line, the better "value" point would be the 807V vs. the 836V. With the floorstanders, you get deeper extension, (-3 dB @ 40 Hz for the 836V vs. -3 dB @ 50 Hz for the 807V). Since you'll be getting 2 high performance subs, why spend the $$$ on the extra 10 Hz of extension. Set up the Bass Management to send the bass to the subs. Then you only *need* 50 Hz extension to get a good blend.

If it works from a practical standpoint, three 807V's across the front would be better than the horizontal CC 800V. It would be a perfect timber-match for the L/R's and it would avoid the lobing issues inherent in a horizontal MTM design.

Just my $0.02

Craig
post #10 of 36
Thread Starter 
Thanks again for everyones help! After further studies, I'm am looking into the following equipment.

Please feel free to comment. Thanks!!

speakers
Mains -Focal JM Lab - Chorus 836 V (Pair) $2300 USED
Rear - Focal JM Lab - Chorus 807 V (Pair) $700 - USED
Surround - Focal JM Lab - Chorus SR 800 V (Pair) $1,250 NEW
Center - Focal JM Lab - Chorus CC 800 V (Each) $375 USED
JL Audio Fathom f112 Subwoofer (Qty 2) $2,200 Each $4,400

Total for Speakers $9,054


a/v preamp: Pre/Pro
Anthem AVM50 $4,699 NEW

amplifier:
Anthem Statement A5 Multi-Channel Amplifier $2,499 (NEW)

Total A/V Equipment $7,198

Grand Total $16,252


NOTE: I have no problem spending $20,000 - $30,000 for AV Equipment including cables, racks and any other equipment needed.
post #11 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by therightstuff View Post

Thanks again for everyones help! After further studies, I'm am looking into the following equipment.

Please feel free to comment. Thanks!!

speakers
Mains -Focal JM Lab - Chorus 836 V (Pair) $2300 USED
Rear - Focal JM Lab - Chorus 807 V (Pair) $700 - USED
Surround - Focal JM Lab - Chorus SR 800 V (Pair) $1,250 NEW
Center - Focal JM Lab - Chorus CC 800 V (Each) $375 USED
JL Audio Fathom f112 Subwoofer (Qty 2) $2,200 Each $4,400

Total for Speakers $9,054


a/v preamp: Pre/Pro
Anthem AVM50 $4,699 NEW

amplifier:
Anthem Statement A5 Multi-Channel Amplifier $2,499 (NEW)

Total A/V Equipment $7,198

Grand Total $16,252


NOTE: I have no problem spending $20,000 - $30,000 for AV Equipment including cables, racks and any other equipment needed.

Good for you, but you are another victim of our advise. Even though your initial budget was $10K we have managed to help you increase your budget to $16K.

WE HAVE MANAGED, ONCE AGAIN TO GUIDE SOMEONE TOWARDS THE PATH TO BANKRUPTCY!!!! WE ARE GETTING BETTER AND BETTER AT IT EVERYDAY.

Hopefully you don't need a projector, plus screen, plus acoustic treatments, plus new DVD player, plus new Turntable, plus new CD only player, plus one or two gaming systems, plus universal remote control with lighting and HVAC controls, plus theater seating, plus pop corn machine, plus fridge, etc. 'Cause the $15K available at the top of your budget will not be sufficient.
post #12 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by PR Audio View Post

Even though your initial budget was $10K we have managed to help you increase your budget to $16K.

I believe his initial budget was for speakers was $10K, not including amps...

Personally, I haven't listened to the Focals in years, but I have never considered them to be particularly good bang for the $. I think you could do better.
post #13 of 36
Thread Starter 
PR Audio,

In the beginning I had no idea how much to spend, but after 2 weeks of reading its apparent that I'll need to spend $40,000 - $50,000 on the HT. At this time I have only bought a JVC RS1 projector and Denon 3808Ci. I know understand that the Denon 3808Ci was no a good decision for my HT, but will find a place for it in another room or just give it to my parents.

I.m planning on spending....
Speakers - $10,000
Amps - $10,000
Projector, Video, screen- $10,000
Seats, cables, misc -$10,000
Extra Budget if needed - $10,000
post #14 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by therightstuff View Post

PR Audio,

In the beginning I had no idea how much to spend, but after 2 weeks of reading its apparent that I'll need to spend $40,000 - $50,000 on the HT. At this time I have only bought a JVC RS1 projector and Denon 3808Ci. I know understand that the Denon 3808Ci was no a good decision for my HT, but will find a place for it in another room or just give it to my parents.

I.m planning on spending....
Speakers - $10,000
Amps - $10,000
Projector, Video, screen- $10,000
Seats, cables, misc -$10,000
Extra Budget if needed - $10,000

That is why I joke about "the path to bankruptcy", as I bought in Nov. a set of PSB T45/C40/B25, and a Marantz SR-5001, to upgrade my old Sony HTIB. Difference was so great that I found myself hearing lots of music, which was never my interest. Since I had a decent audio system, and a 50" plasma, why not get the HD Cable Box, plus HD service, a BluRay player, a Wii, and good cables. I am remodeling my home and adding a dedicated HT room, so I can just use all that equipment in there. But, then my family room will be empty, so I decided that I would need new equipment for the HT room. I decided to hear the B25's as mains to test them...Wow, they sounded almost as good as the towers, so it would be a waste to use them as rears. So now, I have them in stands in my living room connected to a NAD amp, Onkyo TT, and just ordered a Marantz CD-5001 for CD playback, plus an audio rack that would please the wife. So, I had to order another set of speakers (PSB Alpha LR1) to be used as rears in the family. The HT room will be ready around April, so I have to start researching again and buying equipment. So, here is the end result in only a few months:

Marantz SR-5001 Refurb $400.00 + $32.00 Freight
PSB Speaker Set $1146.00 + $190.00 Freight
Blu Ray $685.00
HD Cable $100.00 deposit for box, plus an additional $15.00 on my monthly bill
Wii $250.00
Cables and connectors $300.00+
Plasma (not counting as I bought Dec. 2006)
HSU VTF2-MK3 Sub $499.00 + $55.00 freight (just bought to substitute my old 8" 50W Audiosource)

NAD C315BEE Amp $275.00 + $30.00 Freight
PSB Alpha LR1 $149.00 + $30.00 Freight
Onkyo TT Free (it was at my parents house closet)
Marantz CD-5001 Refurb $229.00 + $26.00 Freight
Speaker Stands (High WAF) $225.00
Audio Rack (High WAF) $750.00
Cables and Connectors $100.00

And my AV budget for the HT room is around $35K. And it will increase, as I will send the drawings for the HT room to Salk Audio to have them quote a custom Veracity setup with high WAF finish. I want something different, so it will be Salk or the least expensive Wilson Audio speakers.

I'm about to cry, so enjoy your hunt...
post #15 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by therightstuff View Post

Thanks again for everyones help! After further studies, I'm am looking into the following equipment.

Please feel free to comment. Thanks!!

speakers
Mains -Focal JM Lab - Chorus 836 V (Pair) $2300 USED
Rear - Focal JM Lab - Chorus 807 V (Pair) $700 - USED
Surround - Focal JM Lab - Chorus SR 800 V (Pair) $1,250 NEW
Center - Focal JM Lab - Chorus CC 800 V (Each) $375 USED
JL Audio Fathom f112 Subwoofer (Qty 2) $2,200 Each $4,400

Total for Speakers $9,054


a/v preamp: Pre/Pro
Anthem AVM50 $4,699 NEW

amplifier:
Anthem Statement A5 Multi-Channel Amplifier $2,499 (NEW)

Total A/V Equipment $7,198

Grand Total $16,252


NOTE: I have no problem spending $20,000 - $30,000 for AV Equipment including cables, racks and any other equipment needed.

At the risk of repeating myself, I will go back to the Intrgra Pre/Pro. For 1/3 the price of the Anthem AVM50, you get *all* the same capability and more up to date technology. Read the last few pages of the "official" thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=873877

The Anthem amp @ $2,499 is a good performer. However, you can get just as good for less in the Emotiva amp I linked to previously. BTW, the Anthem is a 5-channel amp. You've specified 7 speakers. How will you drive the last 2 speakers? The Emotiva is a 7-channel amp.

Or, you can get a lot more performance for similar money with an Earthquake Cinenova Grande 5, (328 wpc x 5) for only a little more money. I recently bought this amp for ~ $2,600 from Federal Stereo:
http://www.federalstereo.com/

In a PM to me, you said: "At this time I'm considering what I spend a learning experience and want to make the best decisions possible." In your OP, you also said: "Please do not recommend that I go to a store and demo the speakers." These two statements are incongruous. If you are going to drop this kind of cash and you want to learn something in the process, you *owe* it to yourself to take some time and go listen to some speakers and systems. Take a weekend, travel to a larger metropolitan area, make appointments at several of the high-end dealerships and go spend some time listening to speakers and systems in your price range. There are many choices and many levels of sound quality that can be had for the amount of $$$ you're willing to spend. To arbitrarily jump on the Focal's may not be the *best* decision for you, and your "learning experience" will be an expensive and frustrating one. (Have you even listened to the Focal's?)

The other suggestion I have for you is to get a Home Theater designer involved early on in the process. A good HT designer can help you select equipment, but also help you integrate that equipment into your room and optimize the room acoustics to take best advantage of it. You can spend tens of thousands of $$$ on equipment/speakers and it might only sound just "OK" in your room... because your room is suboptimal. Addressing room acoustics is just as important, (maybe more so), as the equipment and speaker selection.

Check out the Dedicated Theater Design and Construction Forum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forum...aysprune=&f=19
Dennis Erskine is the moderator and also a very respected HT designer.

Also, check out the HAA:
http://www.homeacoustics.net/
They can help you find an HT designer with room acoustics experience.

Another similar resource is CEDIA:
http://www.cedia.net/

Do your homework, (or you can call it your "due diligence" or "getting an education" if you prefer.) Don't just drop your money on the first system that comes along. You may have lots of money to spend, but you still need to spend it wisely, or you won't end up with a satisfying system.

Good luck.

Craig
post #16 of 36
What you really need to know is not just the max continuous rating of your speaker, but also its peak power handling capability. Combine this with the speaker efficiency and you can start to understand the interaction.

First you start with the speaker efficiency, lets say 90 dB/watt.
Then you need to know that THX reference level is 105 db.
Then you need to factor in the need to reproduce dynamics, which average 15 dB.
Now do you math knowing that for every 3 dB increase in loudness, you need to double your amplifier power.
Thus:
Loudness Power
90 1
93 2
96 4
99 8
102 16
105 32 THX reference
108 64
111 128
114 256
117 512
120 1024 dynamic peaks

Now you can understand your receiver and speaker needs.
Thus with a 90 dB/watt speaker you can conclude the following:

1 - For THX reference level sound you need 32 watts of average power. No problem.
2 - To reproduce dynamic peaks you need you speaker to be able to handle about 1000 watts

The average receiver, which will be clipping like crazy.

If you really want a true home theater experience, that reproduces the dynamics without clipping, you need to reconsider your selections.

You should be looking at speakers with efficiency over 96 dB/watt or higher.
With a 99 dB/watt sensitive speaker and a 140 w/ch receiver you would be able to hit 120 dB peak sound levels of most of the dynamic passages of a sound track.

Now there are sounds that have peaks more than 15 dB - i.e. gun shots which can be 40 dB. To try and cover those you need an amp with 500 to 1000 watts/channel capability.
And even those may clip occasionally.

IMHO, for home theater applications, people should not even be looking at a speaker with an efficiency of less than 96 dB/watt.

The average speaker with the average receive is INCAPABLE of faithful home theater reproduction. This is the dirty little secret that speaker manufacturers do not tell you.

The actual brand/model of the speaker you have to choose yourself as sound is a very personal preference.

Good luck.
post #17 of 36
You may want to take a look at the Klipsch THX Ultra system. It'll run you pretty much an even 10 grand for 7 speakers and 2 subwoofers (although you may want to consider just getting the speakers from Klipsch, and looking into some monster Internet direct subwoofers, such as the MFW-15). In any case, although Klipsch are often debated for the quality of music reproduction, for cinema you can hardly go wrong with their THX series.
I know you said you don't want big name brands, but I think in the price range you are looking at, the amount of the price that goes into marketing becomes fairly even amongst big and small brands, and most of the money goes into R&D and Parts. (in comparison to other brands of course - no matter what you buy in the 10k range, there will be a mark up on it)
post #18 of 36
Thread Starter 
Graig & Dionyz,

Lots of excellent advice!!! Let me try to absorb above responses and I'll post my thoughts later today.

Thanks!!!
post #19 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dionyz View Post

What you really need to know is not just the max continuous rating of your speaker, but also its peak power handling capability. Combine this with the speaker efficiency and you can start to understand the interaction.

First you start with the speaker efficiency, lets say 90 dB/watt.
Then you need to know that THX reference level is 105 db.
Then you need to factor in the need to reproduce dynamics, which average 15 dB.
Now do you math knowing that for every 3 dB increase in loudness, you need to double your amplifier power.
Thus:
Loudness Power
90 1
93 2
96 4
99 8
102 16
105 32 THX reference
108 64
111 128
114 256
117 512
120 1024 dynamic peaks

Now you can understand your receiver and speaker needs.
Thus with a 90 dB/watt speaker you can conclude the following:

1 - For THX reference level sound you need 32 watts of average power. No problem.
2 - To reproduce dynamic peaks you need you speaker to be able to handle about 1000 watts

The average receiver, which will be clipping like crazy.

If you really want a true home theater experience, that reproduces the dynamics without clipping, you need to reconsider your selections.

You should be looking at speakers with efficiency over 96 dB/watt or higher.
With a 99 dB/watt sensitive speaker and a 140 w/ch receiver you would be able to hit 120 dB peak sound levels of most of the dynamic passages of a sound track.

Now there are sounds that have peaks more than 15 dB - i.e. gun shots which can be 40 dB. To try and cover those you need an amp with 500 to 1000 watts/channel capability.
And even those may clip occasionally.

IMHO, for home theater applications, people should not even be looking at a speaker with an efficiency of less than 96 dB/watt.

The average speaker with the average receive is INCAPABLE of faithful home theater reproduction. This is the dirty little secret that speaker manufacturers do not tell you.

The actual brand/model of the speaker you have to choose yourself as sound is a very personal preference.

Good luck.

While the above is quite good information, please realize that the numbers calculated are for 1 meter distances to the speakers and don't include the effect of room gain, the addition of multiple speakers, or the loss associated with extra distance from the speakers, (~ 6 dB for each doubling of distance). These unknowns make it difficult to predict actual SPL levels "in-room". Also, very few people set a goal of reaching 120 dB peaks. Dolby "Reference Level" is 105 dB peaks/115 dB for the LFE channel *at the seats*. Reference level is *very* loud and few systems can actually sustain it. It takes fairly high sensitivity speakers and powerful amplifiers to reach it.

As Dionyz points out, most receivers are not capable of Reference Level with average sensitivity speakers. However, the OP is already looking at separate power amps. The 200/250 wpc amps should be able to reach "in-room" Reference level with speakers having a sensitivity of 90+ dB /1 watt /1 meter. The Earthquake Cinenova Grande, with 328 wpc that I linked to above will reach Reference in most rooms with speakers having a sensitivity of 86 to 87 dB/1 watt /1 meter. You don't need thousands of watts to get full Reference level with most commercially available speakers. What you *do* need is sufficient power handling.

Craig
post #20 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by therightstuff View Post

At this time I have only bought a JVC RS1 projector and Denon 3808Ci. I know understand that the Denon 3808Ci was no a good decision for my HT

OK, I've got to ask; why isn't the Denon 38308 a good decision? It's an excellent piece of equipment. If you think you need more power you can add external amps, but processing wise, it should do almost everything you need?

It seems to me you're throwing money at something simply because you can. That's fine, it's your money, but if this truly all new to you do yourself a favor and start a little more conservatively. "Look how expensive my system is" bragging rights are one thing. "Look how good my system is and how little I spent" bragging rights are ultimately much more satisfying (even when "little" ends up being $80,000).

Remember, you're just touching the tip of the iceberg for costs here: next step is room treatments, new furniture, redecorating. Then the upgrade cycle starts; once you've spent a year with the equipment you'll know were the real weak spots are (that no amount of reading will ever tell you) and you'll really understand were to spend your money instead of spending excessive amounts of money on "status" equipment that doesn't really pay off in the long run.
post #21 of 36
Depends on your speakers.

I was auditioning the Klipsch RF-83s with Onkyo-905, and the speakers sounded great - very detailed and dynamic sound. Then out of curiosity I switched to Yamaha 3800 and they sounded great also.

Then I switched to Denon 3808 and wow! This great sounding speaker all of a sudden sounded like a cheap speaker at BB. Gone was the detail and dynamics. It sounded as if someone had thrown a blanket over it.

I am no expert by any means, but if I was going to guess, Denon does not do well with speakers that get below 8 ohms and that love lots of current.
The Klipsch RF-83, even though it says it is 8 ohm compatible, it gets down to 3-4 ohm in the lower frequencies.

Bottom line is that you must be VERY careful with Denon.

It may sound fine with your speakers and it may not - CAREFUL.
post #22 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dionyz View Post

Depends on your speakers.

I was auditioning the Klipsch RF-83s with Onkyo-905, and the speakers sounded great - very detailed and dynamic sound. Then out of curiosity I switched to Yamaha 3800 and they sounded great also.

Then I switched to Denon 3808 and wow! This great sounding speaker all of a sudden sounded like a cheap speaker at BB. Gone was the detail and dynamics. It sounded as if someone had thrown a blanket over it.

I am no expert by any means, but if I was going to guess, Denon does not do well with speakers that get below 8 ohms and that love lots of current.
The Klipsch RF-83, even though it says it is 8 ohm compatible, it gets down to 3-4 ohm in the lower frequencies.

Bottom line is that you must be VERY careful with Denon.

It may sound fine with your speakers and it may not - CAREFUL.

Not my experience with Denon at all. I have a Yammie with Klipsch speakers. I've heard other Klipsch speakers with Denon receivers and they sound just as detailed and open as with a Yammie.

If I was going to guess, I suspect there was some setting that was incorrect on the Denon receiver you listened to.

Having said that, I have since replaced the Yammie with the Integra and the Cinenova amp. Better processing, more headroom = better sound.

Craig
post #23 of 36
Thread Starter 
Yesterday Morning, I contacted a dealer in California about some "Demo" Focal speakers. When I talked to him about speakers he also recommended the following AV Equipment.

He claims that Anthem is upgradeable.
Anthem AVM50 $4600
Anthem Statement A5 Multi-Channel Amplifier $2400


He also told me to look T+A SR 1535 AV Receiver
SR 1535 - 7.1 Digital decoder, 5-channel amplifier; DolbyDigital / EX, dts / IS / IT Discretem; ProLogic II / ProLogic II x / dts NEO: 6, Dolby Headphone, 56-bit digital audio signal processor; Distortion 0004%; 24 bit / 192 kHz D / A converter.

How does the above items compare to Graigs recommendations.
Integra DTC 9.8 Pre/Pro $1,600
Earthquake Cinenova Grande 5 $2,600




The Dealer had also recommended [b](Qty 2) JL Audio Fathom f112 Subwoofer ($2200 Each).
12-inch driver, 1,500-watt RMS amp; 19.5 x 16.5 x 19.8 in; 115 lb

How does that compare to (Qty 2) av123 MFW-15 ($599)
15 inch driver, 350 Watt amp, Plays to 18hz, Dimensions (HxWxD inches) 24x15x24, pounds 120

Is it worth the extra money on the Fathom?

Now for a real stupid question? What the difference between a/v receiver, preamp, Pre/Pro? Do they all do the same thing?

Thanks!!!!
post #24 of 36
[quote=scientest;12917370]
It seems to me you're throwing money at something simply because you can. That's fine, it's your money, but if this truly all new to you do yourself a favor and start a little more conservatively. "Look how expensive my system is" bragging rights are one thing. "Look how good my system is and how little I spent" bragging rights are ultimately much more satisfying (even when "little" ends up being $80,000). [quote]

Wonder where I have heard this before??? Craig, have you ever heard this comment???

Anyways, Mr. Therightstuff...Dionyz numbers and advise are excellent, actually I found it very informative. But, get real...The most down to earth advise was given by Craig and a couple of other people. Dionyz knows his stuff, but, maybe once or twice in your lifetime, you will be hearing music at reference levels; your family will not simply allow it, and I wouldn't put my family thru that.

Think well your options, and don't go at it based on "high price must be better"...

I'm no expert on separates, so someone else can advise about the Anthem vs. Integra. JL Audio F has no comparison, it is the best out there. But, much more expensive option...

Simple explanation: Receiver is all your audio (tuner, processors, tuner, amps, etc.) in one unit. Amps are just that the power to the speakers, and Processor is the decoders, peripheral inputs, outputs for your system. Because of size limitations the receiver can only use amps of certain power/size, therefore limiting your power and control options. The amp having only to deal with power to the speakers can provide much more power and SQ to your speakers in the same size enclosure as a receiver. Then you add a processor, that usually is about half the size of a receiver, that will control what the amp will put out. Some people don't care for a tuner, as they won't listen to radio, so you save space by not having one; there are tuners available separately or some processors have tuners. Be advised that some receivers can be used as processors, as they provide pre-amp out; you control everything in the receiver, and by adding separate amps to it you get more power than your receivers rated output. There are many differences, but this is a layman's explanation.
post #25 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by therightstuff View Post

He claims that Anthem is upgradeable.
Anthem AVM50 $4600
Anthem Statement A5 Multi-Channel Amplifier $2400


He also told me to look T+A SR 1535 AV Receiver
SR 1535 - 7.1 Digital decoder, 5-channel amplifier; DolbyDigital / EX, dts / IS / IT Discretem; ProLogic II / ProLogic II x / dts NEO: 6, Dolby Headphone, 56-bit digital audio signal processor; Distortion 0004%; 24 bit / 192 kHz D / A converter.

How does the above items compare to Graigs recommendations.
Integra DTC 9.8 Pre/Pro $1,600
Earthquake Cinenova Grande 5 $2,600

I cannot imagine why one would want to buy the Anthem PrePro when the Integra DTC 9.8, with all its capabilites, is so much less expensive and so highly regarded. By any chance, does the dealer in California carry Anthem but not Integra?

Anyway, I suggest moving the electronics discussions to the AMPs, Receivers, and Processors section of AVS, and focusing on your speaker discussions here.

Bruce
post #26 of 36
Thread Starter 
PR Audio,

Please don't get me wrong, as I like saving money probably more than anyone else. I could really care less about "Look how expensive my system is". I'm more into look how good my system sounds. I would like to buy it right the first time.

What I'm trying to accomplish is purchasing the best quality items from a reputable manufacture at the best price!

I think I understand that speakers do not change much, so I should buy the best that I can afford now.

If av123 is selling a sub for 1/3 of the price as its closest than that is what I will buy.

The reason I have listed the dealers suggestions on the T+A and Anthem products is to get feed back. As I mentioned before, I would like to take the time to do it right the 1st time.

Sorry if I'm uneducated a pain in the a$$!

Thanks Again!!!!
post #27 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by therightstuff View Post

PR Audio,

Please don't get me wrong, as I like saving money probably more than anyone else. I could really care less about "Look how expensive my system is". I'm more into look how good my system sounds. I would like to buy it right the first time.

What I'm trying to accomplish is purchasing the best quality items from a reputable manufacture at the best price!

I think I understand that speakers do not change much, so I should buy the best that I can afford now.

If av123 is selling a sub for 1/3 of the price as its closest than that is what I will buy.

The reason I have listed the dealers suggestions on the T+A and Anthem products is to get feed back. As I mentioned before, I would like to take the time to do it right the 1st time.

Sorry if I'm uneducated a pain in the a$$!

Thanks Again!!!!


Your no pain, actually I'm learning alot at the same time. But, the sound difference between that Anthem and the Integra is minimal in an HT situation, maybe somewhat more noticeable in a music system, but you really need a trained ear to notice them.

Here is a suggestion, and you don't need to run all over your State to do this. Go to only one or two audio stores, even if they don't carry the more expensive series of what the brands they sell. Hear a few, and see what characteristics you like and dislike from that speaker, as you go up in price you will see that those brands will improve their SQ, but the basic characteristics that you liked or disliked will be there in a certain manner. From that you can focus on the brands you liked the most.

Without giving your full address, what is your City, State, ZC...If you want just PM. And I'm sure people here can give you an idea where to start looking.
post #28 of 36
Forgot to mention...Don't worry about getting the very best right at the start. This is what always happens:

You will buy the Anthem and spend $6K (just to say a number), and in a couple of years, sometimes it happens in months or in more years, you will start to notice good things and bad things in your amp and in your speakers. Next thing you know, you are posting here, again, looking for the next step/upgrade to your system.

If you want to get it over with, buy the Anthem, Wilson Audio Thor's Hammer sub, and a set of Wilson Audio Sophia's. The Sophia's + Watch Center + Watch Surrounds speaker set should be in the neighborhood of $22K, w/o the sub. I'm pretty much sure you will never need to upgrade, unless you want to upgrade to Wilson's other speaker lines.

Or, you can achieve similar sound and looks for $10K-$12K with Salk.
post #29 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by therightstuff View Post

Yesterday Morning, I contacted a dealer in California about some "Demo" Focal speakers. When I talked to him about speakers he also recommended the following AV Equipment.

He claims that Anthem is upgradeable.
Anthem AVM50 $4600
Anthem Statement A5 Multi-Channel Amplifier $2400


He also told me to look T+A SR 1535 AV Receiver
SR 1535 - 7.1 Digital decoder, 5-channel amplifier; DolbyDigital / EX, dts / IS / IT Discretem; ProLogic II / ProLogic II x / dts NEO: 6, Dolby Headphone, 56-bit digital audio signal processor; Distortion 0004%; 24 bit / 192 kHz D / A converter.

How does the above items compare to Graigs recommendations.
Integra DTC 9.8 Pre/Pro $1,600
Earthquake Cinenova Grande 5 $2,600




The Dealer had also recommended [b](Qty 2) JL Audio Fathom f112 Subwoofer ($2200 Each).
12-inch driver, 1,500-watt RMS amp; 19.5 x 16.5 x 19.8 in; 115 lb

How does that compare to (Qty 2) av123 MFW-15 ($599)
15 inch driver, 350 Watt amp, Plays to 18hz, Dimensions (HxWxD inches) 24x15x24, pounds 120

Is it worth the extra money on the Fathom?

Now for a real stupid question? What the difference between a/v receiver, preamp, Pre/Pro? Do they all do the same thing?

Thanks!!!!

I don't think I need to re-state my thoughts about the Integra/Earthquake combo a third time. Suffice it to say I own both of those pieces and I personally think they offer far better value than the Anthem line. Take a look at the Integra thread if you still have questions. For any other follow up, the discussion should go to the Amps, Receivers and Processors Forum as Bruce suggested.

I am not familiar with a "T+A SR 1535 Receiver". However, it seems very odd that it is a 7.1 receiver, yet it only has a 5-channel amp. How do you drive the 6th and 7th channels/speakers? Do you have a link to the receiver or the manufacturer? Again ask your question on the Amps... forum.

Quote:


"Now for a real stupid question? What the difference between a/v receiver, preamp, Pre/Pro? Do they all do the same thing?"

Again, ask this question in the Amps.. Forum. Or, do a search in that forum and you'll find plenty of responses. To answer the question, a receiver is a combination of a pre-amp, a processor and a power amp. It's all three components in one box or chassis. Separating them into individual components *usually* yields higher quality and more flexibility, and often higher prices.

The JL Audio Fathoms are excellent subwoofers. I own a pair of F112's and can personally vouch for their sound quality, their build quality and their physical appearance. However, the MFW-15's offer much higher "value" than the JL's, in a somewhat larger box that isn't finished quite as nicely. If you want "value", (i.e., sound quality/$$$ spent), I highly recommend them. They are designed by Mark Seaton and craigsub has reviewed them and found them to be excellent performers. See craigsub's rankings:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...36#post9164136
Again, any further discussion of subwoofers should go to the Subwoofers, Bass and Transducers Forum.

Since this is the Speakers Forum, I will reiterate that you really need to go out and *listen* to speakers to educate yourself on what is available and what the differences are between speakers at various pricepoints. If you get opinions on this forum, they are just that: OPINIONS! No one can tell you what speakers *you* will like. Only your own ears can do that.

Craig
post #30 of 36
I'm having real trouble understanding why you'd want to spend so much for a room that size unless you are the movie or music business and if you are you could just call in a sound engineer friend. I'm a big fan of Klipsch speakers and given the high quality sound I'm getting with their Synergy line, I'd have to think that their Reference line would be wonderful. Looking at BestBuy.com their top stuff would run you around $3,000 but looking at Klipsch.com I see recommended systems running up to $6,400 at MSRP. the webpage even has a link to find a dealer.
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