Possible King Crimson in surround - Page 6

Alex was at PT's LA show!!!




hehe sorry about that

sorry, I hadn't seen any mention... any chance of these being collected as a box? I assume not, but worth a check. I'm by no means a huge KC fan (I own Lizard and COTCK on CD, and most of the others on vinyl), but I'm seriously intrigued by any good classic prog DVD-A release...

Ditto for my local boys Rush... I frankly think there are but two or three albums I'd like to pickup, but the sheer nerdiness of 2112 in gratuitous surround would be, well, enticing. I should walk over to Geddy's house and bug him about it...

So privit, where are you located?
US, UK?
Did you order from Burning Shed?
I'm hoping to get Red by the weekend but I can't even remember exactly what shipping method I got, probably Air Mail which usually takes a week or less from England.

Sources close to the project have stated that there is no plan to have a box set for the DVD-A Crimson releases.

UK and Burning shed, and despite post office strikes it arrived in good time and is frankly a reference disc for DVDA and how to reissue an album. the surround mix is pretty special and i only hope the rest live up to the hype that has been arround on the Quad forum for instance. i was steeling myself to be a little dissappointed but now way Red is Great.

^^^^^
Can you tell I'm getting a bit excited about this?
I can't imagine that the combination of Fripp & Wilson would deliver anything less than the very best.

OK, finally got my copy (in Dallas) of Red yesterday.

I'm one of those old guys that first heard Crimso listening to "In the Court..." driving around in high school on an 8-track. How could a teenager resist that cover? I always preferred the Wetton/Bruford era lineup so I was excited that Red was scheduled to be the first release in this series. Btw, my first home audio rig was a quad setup so I've always been enamored of MCH. But I digress......

In listening to the 5.1 MLP tracks last night one description kept coming to mind. Every element of each track was distinct and had it's own space. It was as if you were literally in the middle of the studio as they performed around you. Fallen Angel was a song I was very familiar with, but this recording was something new altogether. I always considered Starless as KC's A Day in the Life, and hearing it last night was almost a religious experience.

I know I'm sounding like a typical fan-boy, but this is without a doubt the best realization of multi-channel I've come across. Of course this is only my opinion, but isn't that why we're here. I eagerly await the rest of the KC catalog. Well done to Fripp & Wilson!

Wow! cant wait, should have my DVD from Burning shed soon. How does Wettons Bass sound?

FWIW, I pre-ordered directly from DGM and received my copy of Red on Monday (10/5). They shipped on Oct. 1st. Plus ordering from DGM is the most profitable method for DGM, meaning that the likelihood of future releases increases.

Like everyone else, I am very pleased with the 5.1. Haven't listened to the stereo or CD versions yet.

Got Red today and listened to the DVD-A 5.1.
The mix and music are great but I confess I'm a little disappointed in the SQ.
Not that I feel it is in any way a fault of the the team that re-did the disc, just that it still sounds like a 1974 recording to me.
I guess I expected too much.

In 1974 the quality of sound put on tape would not be the problem. So do you think your problem with the sound might be due to the difference between 1974 style mastering and modern mastering?

For example, the Genesis remasters are loathed by some (include me) because Nick Davis (cursed be his name) did these in a modern style (unnatural EQ and LOTS of compression). So what do you think of the Genesis SACDs?

Friday's post has arrived without my copy of Red, so I'll have to wait until next week to hear it for myself.

I've never heard the Genesis sacds so I can't opine.
I guess to me, Red just doesn't sound that different from the CD.
It has a small, close-miked quality and lacks that clean,close to the source sound that many hi-res discs and cd remasters have.
I really don't want to come off as entirely negative or down on the disc because I'm not.
I realize the limitations of these projects and I'm sure that they captured exactly what was on the tape.

Not to start any arguments here, but 1974 recording Whats worng with that! The 70's was a time when an engineer really had to know there craft. Some of the best sounding recordings came out of the 70's (1974) A few examples, Yes Tales, Paul Mc, Band on the run, Steely Dan Pretzil Logic, Genesis The Lamb, etc...

Amen to that. Starless is a religious epiphany even in its previous incarnation. When all hell breaks loose at the end, it is Crimso (and rock and dueling saxes) at its finest!

Can anyone shed light on the relative cost between Burning Shed (+ S/H to the US) versus Amazon ($65 for Red, Lizard, ITCOTCK, free shipping)?

It would be about the same or less from Burning Shed. I order there all the time (I'm in California). Usually get the stuff fast. Didn't get Red today but mine shipped last Friday, the Royal Air Mail has been good to me in the past... I might have it here tomorrow. I always do standard (cheapest) shipping (around $5 for one disc).

The USD is 15.90 each for the CD/DVD-A versions on BS.=$48 USD for the lot plus shipping which is likely $10 or so for the 3.

I agree, there are great recordings from all eras.
But imho, this isn't one of them.
I still like the music and the surround mix though honestly I prefer the 80's version of KC as more rhythmically adventurous and I feel that lineup really nailed it both in musicianship and songwriting.
I plan on buying all of the KC sets for better or worse as I totally support hi-res and surround music releases.
I bought all of the Depeche Mode SACD sets and I only really like about half of the music but the other half makes up for it.
It just sounds so damn good even when it's derivative and twinked.

Under the category of FWIW....
I was stationed in El Paso before I went to Vietnam; wife and I lived in a crummy
little apartment off Dyer street.
Next door neighbors were 3 fellow military dudes. On their decent but cheap
Stereo they played "In The Court of the Crimson King" as the last song before
crashing every night.
My wife and I sort of got used to, no, expected it every night!
Good memories, actually.

Wow Kudo's to Wilson and Fripp The DVD Audio of Red sounds really Good! It trully is the best mix of this album I have ever heard! David Crosses violin sounds like it is in the room with you. Brufords drums are so clear you can really here what he is playing. Great stuff!

I got my copy of "In The Court Of The Crimson King" today.

Are you going to keep us waiting
How is it???

My copy of Red arrived today (Burning Shed pre-order, I'm in California).

I only got to preview it at lunch but was instantly crushed when I put it in. The 5.1 MLP track "hiccups" (digitally) at 2.5 seconds or so into every track on my Harman/Kardon DVD-48. I have had no playback issues with any other DVD-A's on that player (have over 50 titles). Perhaps they sent me the non-corrected version by mistake? All of the other tracks play fine (stereo MLP, non-MLP etc). Major bummer since those are mostly the only tracks I plan to play. Hrm... Just popped it into the PC and the Creative DVD-A player seems to be playing it with no issues other than that it pauses between tracks (great). LOL I have a 5.1 system in the bedroom on the PC but the speakers aren't as nice as the ones in the living room!

Other than that one "hiccup" per song at the beginning it sounds wonderful. Very true to the original mixes but more "open". Need to explore more. Some good surround moments but nothing "cheesy" or whirling at high speed in what I've heard so far.

Now I need to go play other DVD-A's and make sure there's not something new wrong with the Harman.

OK, good news and interesting as well. It seems if I just hit "Play Album" and start the first track after putting the DVD-A in it plays perfectly in full glory.

However, if I do what I did originally and go into the menu and select 5.1 MLP as the audio track and then start the album it "hiccups" on each song. Can anyone else replicate this issue on their Red disc?

After listening with no glitches all I can say is this is truly stunning in 5.1. Providence is awesome! Starless is epic... as it should be.

Today I got "In the Court.." and played the DVD-Audio 5.1. I regret that I will be the first to raise a major criticism. This mix is a victim of the Loudness Wars.

The main sin of the Loudness Wars is to compress the waveform so that the sound is unnatural and even distorted. Red and In the Court do not suffer from this (though at times I feel they could have had a little more "air", and so perhaps there is more waveform compression than I would like).

But another sin of the Loudness Wars is the idea that the quiet bits should be made louder. This is great for background music and listening on the iPod, but it destroys the impact of quiet and loud in the music.

Unfortunately Steven Wilson has made the quiet bits of these mixes louder.

This can easily be fixed at home by turning the volume down for the quieter songs (esp the Moonchild improvisation). But by the time I got to the title track I found that I was constantly adjusting the volume up and down during the track.

Because Steven Wilson makes what used to be quiet bits loud in his own mixes, I feared that he would do this. I even posted on the DGM forum raising this concern. Unfortunately my fear was justified.

There is lots to praise in this recording. But the fact that every time I listen I will be juggling the volume control to recreate the real dynamics is, for me, a major disappointment.

I have not yet made an comparisons with earlier versions. And I intend to give some more comments later on. But as no one else has commented on the loss of dynamics I thought that I should post quickly to bring this to people’s attention.

(This has been posted in other forums, so apologies for the repetition for those who also read the other forums.)

Well, the final mixes were approved by Mr Fripp, so I have to assume he liked what he heard.

How do the 2-ch versions compare, in your opinion?

IMHO, a 5.1 mix of something originally released/heard as 2-ch is expected to sound different, and I don't mind the quieter bits being made more prominent if that is the desire of the artist (or perhaps it is just that the 5.1 presentation makes them more obvious).

I do find it interesting that you don't like what SW does to his own music when creating 5.1 mixes. If it is what he likes, what else can you expect?

shinksma

Interesting, I thought Red had a wide range of dynamics and that the quiet parts were still quiet (once or twice I looked to see if it was still playing actually but the kids were running around the room some).

Doesn't COTCK also have the original stereo mix like Red does? I would hope the original dynamics would be preserved there if the levels in the MC mix aren't to your liking.

The many good things about the hi-rez surround mix mean that from now on that will be my version of choice (albeit I'll adjust the volume as I go).

The only bit of Red that struck me as increased volume was the beginning of Providence.

The DVD-A includes the "Original Master Edition 2004" which has had a 2004 remaster.

So best comparisons with the original dynamics would be with vinyl or the 1983 CD.

I have tried to compared the 1983 CD with the DVD-A 5.1 mix using my Tandy sound level meter, but had trouble comparing like with like.

The DVD-A seemed to sound louder at the same db reading. Perhaps this means that the DVD-A is slightly waveform compressed compared to the 1983 CD?

Whether or not I am right about the dynamics, I will be buying all the future King Crimson releases, and listening to them often. This is in stark contrast to the Genesis SACDs which are, in my opinion, so bad that I prefer the CDs.

^^^^^^
Just because the disc is louder than previous versions is no indication that compression was overused or even used at all.

I think it is indication that some compression was used ... unless they went back into the studio to re-record everything

Why? There's endless speculation about these kind of things. Unless someone can show that the dynamic range of these discs has been compressed it's meaningless

compression does not automatically mean it is brickwalled.

there's a lot of overreaction to that word nowadays... when it is (has always been) a necessary process during mastering, its just been abused recently.