Epson 1080UB Calibration Thread - Page 3

Dan,
That calibration looks nice. I will definitely try to lower the main color saturation to get my green and red in line. Thanks for the tip! Would you say that the image you are getting now is better than the xyY preset?

Thanks.

Yes, it's better than any of the presets. Do you adjust the luminance for each primary and secondary after you adjust each saturation and hue?

Dan

I believe I did adjust the luminance, but I'll need to check.

Good idea. It makes a huge difference. Just for reference, if you are using 100% windows for color, then measure your 100% white luminance value and this is what the primaries and secondaries should be compared to 100% white:

Brightness:
Red: 21.3%
Green: 71.5%
Blue: 7.2%
Yellow: 92.8%
Cyan 78.7%
Magenta: 28.5%

The same goes for if you are using 75% color windows. Measure a 75% grey window and write down the luminance value. Then use the percentages above to get the correct brightness for each primary and secondary. So if the 75% grey window is 20 cd/m^2, then red should be 4.26 cd/m^2...

FYI, the 75% windows seemed to give me a better picture when I used them to adjust my color gamut and brightnesses.

Dan

Okay. I remember doing that now. I'll hopefully have sometime work on my calibration again this weekend. How did you use the custom gamma to correct your gamma curve? Mine is still slightly off. When I look at the custom gamma, the graph (vertical lines) does not line up with the 10, 20, 30... IRE, so how did you use this?

If you pull up a test patten, like 30% grey for example, then go into the Epson custom gamma option. It will ask you if you want to adjust the gamma from the chart or the picture. Choose the chart. Find which slider makes the 30% window flash. Then you know you have the correct slider and move it up or down as necessary. You then have to exit the menu and remeasure. It's a pain, especially to do it for all the whole gamma curve, but it made a HUGE difference for me.

My gamma reference in HCFR is set at display gamma, 2.22. That's what I adjusted to. I'm not totally sure this is the correct setting, but it made a huge improvement. It's also fairly close to the Camera Gamma setting, and a value of 2.50 gamma in HCFR. This is something I'm still looking into, and I'm going to check what Calman gives me for gamma this weekend and compare to the HCFR curve.

Dan

Thanks for the tip. This has made a big difference in getting my green primary to the correct levels.

davewou, I'm glad to help.

Update:
I got my second replacement projector today, and just hooked it up. Looks like a winner! I have to calibrate it tomorrow, but I'm pretty excited so far. The color uniformity looks great and the convergence is very good, even better than my current projector. From what I've seen so far, this one is a keeper and looks awesome. I can't wait to calibrate it.

Update: The new projector calibrates fantastic. Excellent, and no color shift! Great focus and convergence too.


Dan

Thanks again Dan! I'm going to try to get my greyscale perfectly lined up using that technique.

I had some time while away to read a LOT regarding Blu Ray players and in the end I decided on the PS3 (the 80G current product that was the 40G model until a month ago).

When I returned home today I re-ran my calibrations with the upscaling LG in all its HDMI resolutions. The gamma was still off as I showed earlier, though the 720P mode was the least poor. I could, thru the custom settings on the 1080UB, correct all but the 80% and 90% with decent accuracy. But the origin of the gamma problem was still a question.

Having decided on the PS3, I picked one up this afternoon and after minimal setup, mostly things on it are in default states, I re-ran the calibration. The gamma was almost dead flat at 2.0 with the Epson set to 2.2. Changing the Epson to 2.4 brought the gamma to 2.2. So, I know the source of the problem was the LG player, not the 1080UB. Now I just need to review all the settings suggested for the PS3-1080UB, in this thread and in the PS3 thread (750 pages - Yikes) and dial in the projector.

Oh...Before I forget, I put in a SD DVD to see how it does with them. HUGE improvement over the LG. I looked at the projector input page to see what the PS3 was sending and it was 1080P. I have read that the Epson may scale SD DVD better, but even if it doesnt do better I will be happy. Now to get a couple Blu Ray discs that arent test discs...

Good to hear you got it figured out.

Yeah, the PS3 does a great job upscaling. The Epson doesn't upconvert nearly as good as the PS3. I run all my SD-DVD and Blu-Ray through the PS3, set at 1080P. These are my settings:
PS3:
Superwhite on
RGB: Full
BD 24hz output: on

Epson:
Superwhite off
Extended RGB
24 hz on

There's some argument whether or not the PS3 should be set to RGB full, but it works for me. I think it only impacts games from what I've read.

Between the 3 1080UB's I've tested, they all are -7, or -8 for brightness with the settings above, and contrast is either 10, or 11. Color is -18 to -20, and tint has been -4, or -5. Then I go in and adjust the gamut.

Keep in mind this is all with the PS3 with the settings above. With a lot of other DVD players, the brightness and contrast should be set close to zero.

Dan

Thanks Dan. I sill start with your suggested settings.

Walter

Good to hear Dan.. Congrats.

That [pink/green] would have drove you nuts.

Thanks Mandarax.

This new projector has been excellent. I only notice a little of the green/blue color shift, and it's only on the far right 10% of the image. Not enough for me to notice.

Dan

stereomandan,

I recently calibrated my 1080ub and found, similar to your cal, that lowering the color control seems to rotate the gamut around the D65 point, but not enough to get blue correct. All the other colors were very close.

Anyway, I noticed that your contrast and brightness settings were also similar to what I ended up after using several "calibration" disks. With these settings the blacks were beginning to crush. On several of the after calibration photos you posted the blacks seemed to be crushed as well (I know that this could be the computer monitor). I lowered my contrast and raised the brightness and the shadow detail was much better and I did not notice any difference with the ability to produce deep blacks. This was using Theatre Black 1 with the Iris off.

My Gamma was around 2.05 after several adjustments of the custom curve. I noticed on another thread you posted adjustments as high as -19. Did this help alleviate the crush once the curve was reading close to 2.2?

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Dan -

Have you tried switching from low to high lamp brightness? If so does this result in any significant changes the the required calibration settings?

No. The brightness adjustment doesn't change the GAMMA. It adds a slight punch to the picture and sometimes distorts the colors, but no change otherwise.

Which setting is Extended RGB refering to in your above post concerning the epson settings. Under RGB all that I see is gain and offset for each color under RGB. Using all of the other numbers that you have posted has improved my image greatly. Thanks for the information.

Yes, it does. Not for the color gamut or the gamma, but for the greyscale tracking. For my unit, the low brightness mode requires a decent boost in the red primary gain and offset to track 6500k.


Correct. That confirms what I see.


The extended RGB is on the PS3 I believe. I set the RGB output on my PS3 to extended RGB.

On the Epson, I believe the option I needed to choose was HDMI extended, or something like that.

The black crush should not occur if you set brightness correctly. It's probably a factor of your gamma setting. If I were you, I would use the custom gamma and get it to match 2.22, but for the second bar, raise it up a few notches. All the shadow datail is controlled by that bar I have found. To be clear, when looking at the custom gamma curve, don't move the far left bar, but the one next to it. My gamma curve follows 2.22 except for that bar, which I have closer to 1.9 or 2.0 That helps keep the picture nice and saturated and punchy without the loss of shadow detail.

Since my last calibration post, I've found some negative impact to reducing the primary and secondary color saturation so much and boosting the brightness so much in the RGBCMY menu. I'll report back with my new settings soon.

The black crush is an artifact of the pictures, and is not what I actually see on my 106" screen. I believe the camera isn't sensitive enough to pic up some of the shadow detail. The room has to be completely dark to see the good shadow detail however. Any stray light will negatively impact the picture, especially with a custom display gamma of 2.22.

Regardless, with my new settings, the main color control is set to -20, and tint is -5. Brightness is still -8 I believe, and contrast is +11.

Dan

I think I have about got it. Thanks for the info. One last question I hope. On the Epson under the Image - Advanced menu there is also a RGB (not RGBCMY) menu. I was wondering if any adjustment was made there or if everything remains at zero. Thanks again.

Those adjustments are very projector specific, but I'll be posting my updated calibration soon, and I'll include my RGB settings. The RGB is used to adjust your greyscale, keeping grey looking neutral grey.

Dan

OK thanks. Looking forward to your update. I realize they are all different but your settings have helped my picture immensely.

Edit. I find that the calibration below gives me a much better picture than my previous calibration from post #60

O.k, so I've spent hours and hours trying to understand the color management system of the 1080UB, and have found some very interesting things.

1) Theater Black 1 is NOT the preferred color mode for accurate colors. Natural is better. I'll explain below.
2) The color saturation of the primary and secondary colors is not consistent from 0-100% saturation. (see saturation charts below)
3) The brightness of the primary and secondary colors is not consistent from 0-100% saturation.
4) The main color control only effects some colors at 100% saturation, but all of them at 75% saturation and below.
5) Skin tone should be set to zero, and tint at -5, color at -12. Contrast and brightness will depend on equipment setup.

Anyhow, here are the new settings:
Natural Color Mode. I'm using custom gamma. I'm using a PS3 with extended RGB and superwhite turned on, like before. The Epson is set to Superwhite off, and HDMI expanded. Low lamp mode.



Use the gains and offsets at your own risk. I have found that these vary a lot from projector to projector, and my settings may make your greys end up too red. It's best to check some grey windows to see if it looks correct with the settings below. Otherwise, start from zero and only adjust the red and blue gains and offsets until grey looks grey

Edit In order to get the gamma below, put the gamma sliders in the positions listed below, from left to right:
0, -6, -10, -11, -12, -13, -11, -15, 0

This new calibration has a slight drawback. 100% colors are oversaturated, but still not to the level of the factory defaults. BUT, the overall color accuracy across the rest of the color gamut is GREATLY improved though. I'll explain.
Gamut

Greyscale

Custom Gamma


Here is Color Saturation in Natural Mode: See how colors have better hue?(bottom curves show hue error) This is a function of natural mode. 100% red hue is also much more accurate. Green doesn't change much from Theater Black 1 mode. The Hue of the colors tracks much better as seen in the bottom curves, as do the saturations error.(top curve) Optimally both of these curves would be zero all the way across.
Saturation Error(top set of curves) and Hue Error(bottom set of curves)


What is interesting is that the brightness of the primaries track well up to 75% saturation, and then drop in brightness at 100% saturation. They drop anywhere from 2 to 10% in brightness, but only at 100% saturation. This is a good thing, as it help negate some of the oversaturation at 100% saturation levels. Even though the picture can be oversaturated at 100% color, the rest of the gamut is spot on.

Look at these charts. The first one shows how the measured points line up with the correct locations(marked as the + signs for each color). The first chart shows pretty good alignment at the outer points on the gamut, but look at the points in the middle of the gamut!!! This is my previous calibration from post #60. For instance, when the 75% green was being called for, the actual saturation beign displayed was around 50%! Same for cyan and yellow. No wonder things were looking washed out in some areas/scenes. Now look at the second chart after I calibrated to the 75% saturation windows. Voila!!! Awesome. Most of the gamut is spot on, except for the outer 100% points. The overall accuracy of the second chart is much better.
Adjusted to 100% saturation windows: (100% luminance)

Adjusted using 75% saturation windows: (100% luminance)


When you use my settings from post #60, the 100% colors are great, but I had a problem. Colors everywhere else in the gamut looked washed out and grey. You can see why in the next picture below. This is Color saturation in Theater Black 1 mode from the calibrations I showed in post #60. As you can see, the 100% color gamut is great, but the 25%, 50%, and 75% saturations are very under saturated. The picture below the gamut shows the saturation of each color versus where it is supposed to be. Ideally, both sets of curves would be zero. As you can see, at 100% saturation, everything is decent, but lower saturations are VERY under saturated. The bottom curve in each picture tracks the error in Hue of each color as the saturation increases. As you can see, it varies quite a bit. Not so good.
Gamut from post #60

Saturation and Hue from post #61


By the way, I checked all the other modes as well, and Natural is by far the most accurate.

So, these new settings give a picture that can sometimes be oversaturated, but much, much more pleasing to me. I prefer it better than the calibration in post #60. Try both and save each to a memory setting on the Epson and you can see which you like. If you read this entire post, you must be tired, and probably deserve a beer.

Dan

I just picked up a demo pro cinema 1080UB (the dealer threw in a brand new bulb in the deal as the one in the demo had 2000 hours on it). I am comparing it side by side with the benq w5000. I am returning the loser.

My question: Will the bulb in the unit have lost a good deal of its brightness at the 2000 hour mark? The unit seems a little dim to me in cinema night or HD mode. It is very bright in cinema day mode, but the colours are seriously over saturated and black levels are not as good.

I am just wondering if installing the new bulb will change things significantly at this point.

First, you will want to use Natural mode, and I suggest my latest set of calibrations for the main menu and RGBCMY menu. Natural mode is called the same mode on the home version. Set the Gamma to the 2.4 preset. In the RGB menu, you my need to add to the red gain, and reduce the red offset to get better greys.

You've probably lost 25%-40% of your brightness. I'm at about 500 hours I think, and I've lost about 15-20%. Remember, the new bulb will start to dim right away too.

On the Epson, the Brightness Control in the main menu is how you turn the lamp to high or low mode. If you can stand the extra fan noise, you should run in high mode for the brightest picture, but you're getting close to end of lamp life. Epson claims 2000 hours if you use high lamp mode, and 3000 hours for low lamp mode. If the unit was used in low lamp mode until now, you should have life left in the bulb.

Dan

Stereoman...

I started with your settings and then calibrated my colors with a disc and filters.

Here are my results.

For Theater Black 1

Brightness -9
Contrast 12
Color saturation -20
Tint -5
Skin Tone 3


R -2 -6 58

G -21 -32 64

B 24 51 36

C 4 -32 60

M -2 36 60

Y 8 6 7


For Natural (I like it BTW)

Brightness -10
Contrast 9
Color Saturation -12
Tint -5
Skin Tone 0


R 2 6 16

G -14 10 9

B 1 -13 32

C 3 -12 32

M 0 22 32

Y 4 17 -4


I don't have calibration equipment...but these results seem to work for my projector. Do they look strange?

Natural seems to add a few extra lumens too am I wrong?

THanks for the write up. I'm going to try these settings on my unit. So far I've been very pleased with the factory settings, but I'm no videophile.

Question, have you been incrementally increasing brightness to compensate for the aging bulb?

Your adjustments to the Theater Black 1 mode seem fine, and if they look better to you, then go for it.

For the adjustments you made to Natural Mode, it would seem that your Green and Magenta colors would be too strong with that much added saturation. I much prefer the Natural mode calibration that I posted.

Yes, I do notice a small bump in brightness in Natural mode as well, and make sure not to use the custom gamma settings posted for the Theater Black 1 mode earlier. The gamma will be way too high, and the picture will be too dark. The 2.4 gamma preset actually tracks very well to an actual 2.13 gamma which isn't bad at all.

Dan

Brightness has not needed to be adjusted as the bulb ages. Bulb aging has changed my greyscale adjustments a little though(RGB menu with the gains and offsets), so you may need to change those by eye. Remember, don't change green, only Blue and Red.

I do notice that the color mode changes what brightness setting I should use. For Theater Black 1 it is set to -8 and for Natural mode -10 is correct.

During my calibrations, I've also found out that setting the contrast to +11 was too high, even though according to the test pattern it was correct. It was overdriving the red color and wreaked havic on my gamma curve and greyscale adjustment. I suggest a setting of +8 all the time just to be safe, even though you loose a little brightness. It also gaurantees that you don't clip the whites. Of course, these brightness and contrast settings are unique to the PS3 with the settings I've mentioned.

Again, I much prefer the Natural mode calibration I posted. Even though the colors are sometimes oversaturated, the HUE is much improved and tracks very well. The picture is a lot less dull as well. For some, it may be too saturated, but I've been much preferring it.

Dan

Stereomandan,

What type of screen are you using?

106" Da-lite High Contrast Matte White (HCMW)

I had samples of all the popular Da-lite material and found this one to be the best comprimise of good blacks and good whites.

Dan