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Genelec - technologie from the 80s? - Page 2

post #31 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by rider View Post

Thank you for your gracious response.
I'll have to remember not to respond to any of your flippant posts, since your extended efforts at supporting a "casual observation" are on-topic and admirably mature, while my responses to them are juvenile.

My posts were not flippant, they contained jocular asides, the OPs questions were however addressed.

Everyone else understood that.
post #32 of 179
I don't have a lot of time at the moment for longer responses, but to think that Genelec hasn't improved or modified their designs in 20 years would be extremely surprising to me. I would also be surprised if there weren't refinements to their waveguides over that time as well. Not dramatic changes, but steady evolution.

There have been many advances in driver technology, our ability to measure drivers, and more importantly our understanding of why a driver performs well or doesn't. Material and adhesive technology is leaps and bounds beyond what it was 20 years ago. Many of the older designs that still compare very well with modern designs are much more so examples of good system design than great components. It's easy to market fancy parts, unfortunately the use of said parts tends to greatly trump the parts themselves.

I wouldn't consider the drivers used in most of the Genelec products to extraordinary. In the 1037 & 1036 they use some extremely expensive and exotic components which have been around for a long time. In many cases we can now compete, equal, or even exceed the performance of such components for much less, and in much less space. In most home theaters we also don't need, nor want speakers with response to 20Hz, but would rather have powerhouses down to 40-60Hz. We are also now looking at designing systems for a wide area of seating and multiple rows, all things not a consideration 20 years ago.

As others have pointed out, marketing drives all, and there is still a delusion that most choices in high end audio are made on solid engineering principals.

There are some very carefully thought out designs with some real skill behind them. There are also many very highly regarded designs in all areas of the market based on some pretty questionable concepts. The fact that Genelec's "old" designs still compete are more a result of solid engineering than the parts they use.

Edit: ... and yes, that was the short response.
post #33 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Genelec (7 x 330As and attendant HTS6, it may be possible to use 324As but i dont think so as the room will be itro 30,000 cu.ft.) or Dynaudio or a custom solution. Too early too say. Need to get the Planning and Architectural input sorted first, with as much structural acoustic treatment attended to as is practical. I will meet with the architect and acoustical engineer fairly soon for some initial brainstorming.

Just a thought on those particular Genelecs: 1" dome tweeter on shallow waveguide + 120W to drive a 30k cu.ft. space?

From Genelec, you would need to at least step up to their big guns with a compression driver and 300W for a room that size.
post #34 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

In most home theaters we also don't need, nor want speakers with response to 20Hz, but would rather have powerhouses down to 40-60Hz.

Mark,

I would disagree with this statement. The experience when listening to a 40Hz setup to a 18hz @ 127-130dB is totally different. The lower frequencies affect the nervous system to almost a fight or flight response. Which raises your heartbeat and releases endorphins. This is the feeling of O' SH@#! You'll feel punches and explosions instead of just hearing them.

When we calibrate, we have to find the fine line between uncomfortable, and exhilarating. After all, you don't want to fatigue everyone to not want to come back for more. It's like a Roller Coaster in your living room (in some twisted way).
post #35 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

Mark,

I would disagree with this statement. The experience when listening to a 40Hz setup to a 18hz @ 127-130dB is totally different. The lower frequencies affect the nervous system to almost a fight or flight response. Which raises your heartbeat and releases endorphins. This is the feeling of O' SH@#! You'll feel punches and explosions instead of just hearing them.

When we calibrate, we have to find the fine line between uncomfortable, and exhilarating. After all, you don't want to fatigue everyone to not want to come back for more. It's like a Roller Coaster in your living room (in some twisted way).

Sorry, see if this clarification makes more sense (edits in bold italics):

"In most home theaters we also don't need, nor want main speakers with response to 20Hz, but would rather have powerhouses down to 40-60Hz as we will always need and use powerful subwoofers in such systems to cover the lowest frequencies."

Most of the systems I've been working on recently extend to 10-12Hz in-room at rather high levels. I am all for full range reproduction. My point was that the main LCR's don't need to each do it themselves, and that difference can greatly change what can be done in a design. Reducing the LF requirement on any speaker by a full octave allows for greater efficiency in the operating range, or to greatly reduce size or even cost.
post #36 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Just a thought on those particular Genelecs: 1" dome tweeter on shallow waveguide + 120W to drive a 30k cu.ft. space?

From Genelec, you would need to at least step up to their big guns with a compression driver and 300W for a room that size.

In relation to picking your main speakers [ front left and front right]:

You are close. 2 x HT330's as front speakers are around 17.6K cu feet. Since there are 7 x HT330, this will increase, but not for stereo. Even in movies not all speakers are being driven all the time. So you be around 20K cu feet.

The 1036A's are the Bad Boys rated for 30K cu. feet. with a typical listening distance 36 feet away and max 50 feet away.

The 324A's are 13K cu. feet. You could include more speakers per channel in a custom array... but then you might as well buy the bigger speaker.

Here's the suggested setup from Genelec:
http://www.genelecusa.com/ht/learnin...-system-setup/
post #37 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Sorry, see if this clarification makes more sense (edits in bold italics):

"In most home theaters we also don't need, nor want main speakers with response to 20Hz, but would rather have powerhouses down to 40-60Hz as we will always need and use powerful subwoofers in such systems to cover the lowest frequencies."

Most of the systems I've been working on recently extend to 10-12Hz in-room at rather high levels. I am all for full range reproduction. My point was that the main LCR's don't need to each do it themselves, and that difference can greatly change what can be done in a design. Reducing the LF requirement on any speaker by a full octave allows for greater efficiency in the operating range, or to greatly reduce size or even cost.

Now were cookin' with fire
post #38 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Just a thought on those particular Genelecs: 1" dome tweeter on shallow waveguide + 120W to drive a 30k cu.ft. space?

From Genelec, you would need to at least step up to their big guns with a compression driver and 300W for a room that size.

You are correct.I wrongly assumed the 330A was the CI version of the 1036A. Id got used to direct correlation across the 2 ranges.

I was always meaning the 1063A anyway.

The best screen size will determine if i need to drop the floor or not and structural changes may have a large effect on the room volume too. Till I have my first session with the architectural consultants I wont have much of an idea. There may be thing i wish that i simply just cant do.

As you know, Im not set on Genelec anyway.
post #39 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

In relation to picking your main speakers [ front left and front right]:

You are close. 2 x HT330's as front speakers are around 17.6K cu feet. Since there are 7 x HT330, this will increase, but not for stereo. Even in movies not all speakers are being driven all the time. So you be around 20K cu feet.

The 1036A's are the Bad Boys rated for 30K cu. feet. with a typical listening distance 36 feet away and max 50 feet away.

The 324A's are 13K cu. feet. You could include more speakers per channel in a custom array... but then you might as well buy the bigger speaker.

Here's the suggested setup from Genelec:
http://www.genelecusa.com/ht/learnin...-system-setup/

see post above. I always meant 1036As anyway, just confused my CI models
post #40 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

see post above. I always meant 1036As anyway, just confused my CI models

No problem. I suspected...

Those are some BAD A$$ speakers *insert sinister laugh*. If you want to impress someone, fire a set of these up. Heaven forbid a full 10.4 complement with HST6s. You could plaster a marque outside your home and charge for admission.
post #41 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

No problem. I suspected...

Those are some BAD A$$ speakers *insert sinister laugh*. If you want to impress someone, fire a set of these up. Heaven forbid a full 10.4 complement with HST6s. You could plaster a marque outside your home and charge for admission.

In my last room, which was smaller, the 324As were seriously good. Really great fidelity at insane SPLs. It was only then that i realized the TRUE impact sound can have.

It was literally capable of terrifying people into screaming their head off at "fright" scenes. Some people literally couldn't cope with the fear. It has a totally different effect at those levels as you mention above.

I miss that room badly.
post #42 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

In my last room, which was smaller, the 324As were seriously good. Really great fidelity at insane SPLs. It was only then that i realized the TRUE impact sound can have.

It was literally capable of terrifying people into screaming their head off at "fright" scenes. Some people literally couldn't cope with the fear. It has a totally different effect at those levels as you mention above.

I miss that room badly.

I started in the medical field at an early age in diagnostic ultrasound as an engineer. Audio was a hobby. But coming from the medical side allowed me to understand how frequencies affect the body. The speed of sound through human tissue is 1540 cm/sec. Although ultrasound is different, the physics remain the same. The reason we all enjoy audio is that it has the #1 impact on our nervous system. It makes us feel something immediately. That's why movies are more entertaining with the background music. Take that away and it's boring. When clients ask why they should spend _____ money I turn off the sound and let them watch the screen. And ask them how much they enjoyed it? Apart from the occasional "The picture looks awesome", I usually get the response it wasn't impressive. It doesn't make you jump. You don't feel terrified. You don't feel anything. Well maybe some boredom. Now do the reverse. Let the music/sound envelop them. They can use their imagination. We've been doing it all our lives listening to music. Getting pumped up at school sports, or thinking of a lost love, etc. It brings emotion in more ways than one. I've heard some REALLY nice systems... and even though Genelec is not cheap, it was the best "solution" for my home when all factors were considered. I understand not everyone can spend $100K on just speakers. So I had to install HT315's in my home. I had to hold back from getting all Giddy and use some practical sense for a change. I don't have a room that is 50 feet long let alone able to sit 50 feet away from a speaker. So when I demo my system to friends @ home, it's something that is closer for them to afford a piece of Nirvana.

The greatest part of my job is seeing the biggest SH@# eating grin from ear to ear when the client powers up their system for the first time. If I don't hear some expletives, then I haven't done my job.
post #43 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

My posts were not flippant, they contained jocular asides, the OPs questions were however addressed.

Everyone else understood that.

Ah, I see...
Your comment was a pleasing "jocular aside," and your subsequent long-winded (and unsuccessful) attempt to validate it was in good fun and of keen interest to all; my in-kind response, however, was "infantile" and off-topic.

Thank you for clarifying that for me.
Your valuable service of dressing-down other members adds an air of class to this forum, and certainly engenders much goodwill.
post #44 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by rider View Post

Ah, I see...
Your comment was a pleasing "jocular aside," and your subsequent long-winded (and unsuccessful) attempt to validate it was in good fun and of keen interest to all; my in-kind response, however, was "infantile" and off-topic.

Yep, you pretty much nailed it.

Its old and the thread was back on topic till now. Don't loose sight of the fact that yours was the opening gambit.

No one else, including the OP ( who, amongst others, thanked me for the comments) chose to see what you did. You're looking for something that wasn't there. Move on, I have.
I was actually oblivious to what you were referring to initially.

Good luck
post #45 of 179
Look the fact is that Dynaudio acoustics Munro are far better speakers. The Genelec roar easy but they are definitely not the most refined studio moniotrs.

Why does everything in this forum/Industry done in a cattle mentality? (Genelec, genelec, genelec/SIM2 , Sim2, Sim2, COLD M. You need to get out more and choose less mainstream stuff you are perpetuating the status quo, a man of your means).

Nothing is wrong with CM's big a$s Genelec's, they are among the best in the Brand. But he clearly could have done better if he questioned what his custom installer tolf him HE SAW AT CEDIA, because if you saw it in CEDIA chances are it's not good enough, cause CEDIA is for whores not perfectionists.

2 dozen major studios sacked the genelec stuff for Dyn Acoustics Munro. The dergree of fatigue factor is phenomenal when comparing the Genelecs versus the Dynaudios, their new entry level BM12a, and BM6a mk2, andbm5a, aND BM5A mini totally oblitarate (after a 3 week break in period) anything you have heard at that price range.

post #46 of 179
coldmachine's original post

Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Your insipid response to a casual observation, that is fundamentally valid, is devoid of original context.

became this in Rider's quote/reply:

Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Your infantile response to a casual observation, that is fundamentally valid, is devoid of original context.

Rider: Can you please explain to me how insipid = infantile. I cannot find an english dictionary that supports this.

When you quote somebody, you're not supposed to change the wording!

Peter
post #47 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post

coldmachine's original post



became this in Rider's quote/reply:



Rider: Can you please explain to me how insipid = infantile. I cannot find an english dictionary that supports this.

When you quote somebody, you're not supposed to change the wording!

Peter

Peter, I changed my wording just after posting. He quoted in the interim period. His quotes are correct for the time they were made.
post #48 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Look the fact is that Dynaudio acoustics Munro are far better speakers. The Genelec roar easy but they are definitely not the most refined studio moniotrs.

Why does everything in this forum/Industry done in a cattle mentality? (Genelec, genelec, genelec/SIM2 , Sim2, Sim2, COLD M. You need to get out more and choose less mainstream stuff you are perpetuating the status quo, a man of your means).

Nothing is wrong with CM's big a$s Genelec's, they are among the best in the Brand. But he clearly could have done better if he questioned what his custom installer tolf him HE SAW AT CEDIA, because if you saw it in CEDIA chances are it's not good enough, cause CEDIA is for whores not perfectionists.

2 dozen major studios sacked the genelec stuff for Dyn Acoustics Munro. The dergree of fatigue factor is phenomenal when comparing the Genelecs versus the Dynaudios, their new entry level BM12a, and BM6a mk2, andbm5a, aND BM5A mini totally oblitarate (after a 3 week break in period) anything you have heard at that price range.


Max, I have sold my old house so no longer have the Genelecs.

The Genelecs are on a list with Dynaudio and a custom solution. I expanded on the Genelecs because I was asked to.

My original choice was not made on installer advice, that comment and the attendant assumptions about me are actually beneath you.


I have made clear, and if not i am now.............Nothing is beyond consideration atm. There are some areas where i will need advice and recommendations fairly soon. I will be posting a list of issues in order to obtain this info. I hope you will contribute and give me the benefit of your knowledge and insight. I need to finalize the structural limitations first.
post #49 of 179
I wasn't specifically saying you listened to an installer as much as critiquing the value HT customers place on some of these airheads that basically show up at the shows and gawk at product without questioning it's claimed superiorities.

Good to hear, then keep in mind that Roger Dressler of Dolby concurred that the right way of doing 7.1 in larger rooms is with more matrixed steered channels (12/24 the more the better. ) That is what dolby has in the lab. 24.

Regarding the Projector, I will be happy to show you the Superkontrast at Helene, or Prometheus (at the end of the year), not having the anamorphic lens because of the servo zoom is THE WAY to go for maximum MTF. Not to mention the other list of benefits. By all early accounts the superkontrast is exceeding every expectation.
post #50 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

2 dozen major studios sacked the genelec stuff for Dyn Acoustics Munro.

Be careful making statements like this. Which 24 studios dumped Genelec for the Munros? I wasn't aware that there were 24 major studios even with Movie and Music combined. Maybe our definition of what a major studio is differ?

Which sound engineers will vouch for the change? I don't mean local affiliates. They are local, not major. But a change is a change, I will grant you that. I have realized that when it comes to high end audio... it's more like what flavor and region of caviar do you fancy. At the end of the day it's still premium caviar.

There were other speakers at 20th Century Fox, New Line Cinema, Sony Pictures, and Pixar before Genelec, and I'm sure there will be other speakers to come after the Genelecs.

You have to give credit where credit is due. For movie applications, a proper installation of 1036As sound amazing. Better than any movie theater in South Florida including Muvico, except a dedicated IMAX theater. The Muvico "IMAX" experience is pretty weak compared to a real IMAX theater in Ft. Lauderdale.
post #51 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

....because if you saw it in CEDIA chances are it's not good enough, cause CEDIA is for whores not perfectionists.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.....
post #52 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

Be careful making statements like this. Which 24 studios dumped Genelec for the Munros? I wasn't aware that there were 24 major studios even with Movie and Music combined. Maybe our definition of what a major studio is differ?

Which sound engineers will vouch for the change? I don't mean local affiliates. They are local, not major. But a change is a change, I will grant you that. I have realized that when it comes to high end audio... it's more like what flavor and region of caviar do you fancy. At the end of the day it's still premium caviar.

There were other speakers at 20th Century Fox, New Line Cinema, Sony Pictures, and Pixar before Genelec, and I'm sure there will be other speakers to come after the Genelecs.

You have to give credit where credit is due. For movie applications, a proper installation of 1036As sound amazing. Better than any movie theater in South Florida including Muvico, except a dedicated IMAX theater. The Muvico "IMAX" experience is pretty weak compared to a real IMAX theater in Ft. Lauderdale.

BBC and entire building worth of studios, Pinewood, air, the list goes on and on.

Yes everyone loves beluga triple zero, I prefer sterlet "Sterlet: The Sterlet is similar to, but smaller than, the average Sevruga and has been known to reach 1.25 m (4 ft) and weigh 16 kg (55 lb).
Fifty years ago 700 tonnes were caught in an average year. Now they are very rare. Although it is no longer caught in commercial quantities, Sterlet is a very important fish as far as propagation is concerned, breeding and cross-breeding successfully in warm water with other species of sturgeon, which makes it vital for the future of the species.
The Sterlet is often mentioned historically, having been popular at all kinds of feasts and banquets, especially as caviar soup"
although now it is the most illegal of all caviars becuase of the impact to the ecosystem of sturgeon in general, but 15 years ago it was my secret deal-closing weapon.
Sterlet makes 000 taste lame. Nowadays I settle for Ossetra. It is more politically correct

The dynaudio BM series is like the Ossetra, the Munro is the Sterlet.

Here is the pics of the BM12, BM6a center, and BM5a surrounds in a small room in our field office. After 3 weeks of breaking in they no longer sound like genelecs (dry), this is a replica of one of those BBC 5.1 monitor suites. We use it as a qc reference for the larger DTS Master HD and Dolby True HD implementations, and in the development of our multimedia systems and AMX control.

Like I said great little f_cking surround sound system.





Those BM12a

Are very clean and powerful monitors, and would serve well as surround speakers on one of these 12-24 channel systems for the surround midfields.
post #53 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by dicey View Post

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.....

From a projector standpoint at the very high end IT DEFINITELY IS, from a speaker auditioning, and surround auditioning it DEFINITELY is, it's only good to go see static product.

Go ahead make CEDIA hallowed ground.:ro lleyes:
post #54 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

BBC and entire building worth of studios, Pinewood, air, the list goes on and on.

Yes everyone loves beluga triple zero, I prefer sterlet "Sterlet: The Sterlet is similar to, but smaller than, the average Sevruga and has been known to reach 1.25 m (4 ft) and weigh 16 kg (55 lb).
Fifty years ago 700 tonnes were caught in an average year. Now they are very rare. Although it is no longer caught in commercial quantities, Sterlet is a very important fish as far as propagation is concerned, breeding and cross-breeding successfully in warm water with other species of sturgeon, which makes it vital for the future of the species.
The Sterlet is often mentioned historically, having been popular at all kinds of feasts and banquets, especially as caviar soup"
although now it is the most illegal of all caviars becuase of the impact to the ecosystem of sturgeon in general, but 15 years ago it was my secret deal-closing weapon.
Sterlet makes 000 taste lame. Nowadays I settle for Ossetra. It is more politically correct

Hardly a list of 24 "Major" studios.

It's amazing what caviar costs here in the states. It's so cheap in Moscow. When we go Russia to visit my wife's family she eats caviar like it's Jelly/Jam.
It's amazing what you can buy over there. 100K fur coats for 10K. Of course you have to pay off the customs agents.
post #55 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

From a projector standpoint at the very high end IT DEFINITELY IS, from a speaker auditioning, and surround auditioning it DEFINITELY is, it's only good to go see static product.

Go ahead make CEDIA hollowed ground.:ro lleyes:

I have to agree with Cinermax to a degree on this one... The speaker rooms were weak (poor construction) which did not allow the speakers to show what they can really do. If you don't have a demo room, then it sounds like crap. So then they turn it up, and it sounds like loud crap; as you run away and cringe.

On the projector side there is no excuse. The rooms they build are pitch black. So you should be able to see the projector in all it's glory. The only caveat is if you are interested in a high gain screen and are interested in seeing if you can use your screen for daytime viewing in your house. That is harder to accomplish. As there isn't direct light into the showroom.

JVC just took their 4K projector off-site with a limo ride to view it. So for projector's it is possible. Didn't see Barco there.

The problem I see is that there needs to be a place for dealers to see all the products instead of flying all around wasting money on products you discover are not worth your time. So CEDIA has its place. It could be better. I will not go to CES... what a joke.
post #56 of 179
The first step is recognizing one may have a Genelec problem...

Here are some videos that can make you recognize the problem sooner than later.

DYNAUDIO FACTORY VIDEOS
post #57 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post


Go ahead make CEDIA hollowed ground.

Well unless someone blowed CEDIA up real good lately, I would rather say 'hallowed' ground.
post #58 of 179
You may want to look into JBL Synthesis

http://jblsynthesis.com/
post #59 of 179
Jumping back to the pyramids, if you do a little research you will see that many of the building techniques are so fine and precise that they cannot be duplicated with todays technologies. from the repeated size of the blocks, to the precision of their placement to the adhesives used internally.

I would rather have their building technology than much of the crap today.

CM, i saw a pic of your new place on another thread, where are you located?
post #60 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

Jumping back to the pyramids....

I would rather have their building technology than much of the crap today.

After seeing a lot of homes (even "high-end") built by some of the merchant builders today, I'd probably rather live in a pyramid too...
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