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Genelec - technologie from the 80s? - Page 3

post #61 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmont View Post

You may want to look into JBL Synthesis

http://jblsynthesis.com/

I did, not in the same class tbh. I found the Genelec and Dynaudio to be superior. Im also hearing great things regarding custom solutions. Im led to believe that the best bespokes can equal these other options in general performance but with custom advantages, especially integration and allowing some major aesthetic control.
post #62 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by rider View Post

After seeing a lot of homes (even "high-end") built by some of the merchant builders today, I'd probably rather live in a pyramid too...

Agreed.

Thats why Im so happy to have moved into a house of solid natural stone construction. The main load bearing walls are 2ft. Without that the HT would not be possible.
post #63 of 179
When it comes to pure fidelity quality there are of course a variety of options to Genelec. Genelec has always been known for highest quality and highest SPL at the same time. Of course we see now many new companies. Your room needs to be perfect as well to handle the amount of energy those speakers can produce. I do not recall, if we have covered the room of the interested buyer yet in detail ?

Dynaudio is for sure a nice brand, owned some myself some years ago (Esotar tweeters), but their technology is nothing from a different planet, that is sometimes implied in here by some very enthusiastic posts.

When you do not have the ability to make your room perfect and you can live with regular reference SPLs, then you may also look at my signature. Geithain is for example one of the biggest studio brands here in Germany, comming from EAST Germany, which was merged almost 20 years ago (seems like yesterday). They have invented a "point source speaker" with controlled directivity even in the bass region !!! That means, in a (slightly or rather) imperfect room, they will not excite the room, the bass modes in that room, to the extent most other speakers do. Now, that is an intelligent approach and those that have spend time what it takes to tame bass will for sure appreciate that invention.



They have mashines to make every cone and every coil themselves (just like Dynaudio). Even own their own anachoic chamber and room that adheres to EBU/ITUR standards. Handcrafted and hand-selected studio monitors that are so transparent and image so unbelievable good that you will not believe it (one reason is that these speakers simply do not have 10 or 20 drivers, but truely mimic the nature of a point source speaker).

At high SPL above regular reference levels you simply need a different approach to end at high SPL with distortion levels below a few percent. That is something Genelec has mastered.

But I think we are drifting of topic. I'm sure many can offer a lot of exotic speaker options, just like I did. But we still lack details on the original question of this thread.....
post #64 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post

They have invented a "point source speaker" with controlled directivity even in the bass region !!! That means, in a (slightly or rather) imperfect room, they will not excite the room, the bass modes in that room, to the extent most other speakers do. Now, that is an intelligent approach...

That is indeed an intelligent approach and one of the holy grails of loudspeaker design, but very difficult to pull off. Some of the large subs from companies such as Meyer Sound work towards this, but they are (last I looked) for large venues such as outside use where directivity in the lower frequencies is also extremely beneficial. I will take a look at it and see what they claim.
post #65 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmont View Post

You may want to look into JBL Synthesis

http://jblsynthesis.com/

Looks like someone played darts and put speakers where they landed. Left some holes too.
post #66 of 179
Their patents work down to almost 30Hz. However, being full honest, they cannot offer 5Hz as well as 130db that some seek The "K" versions offer bass directivity controll via their special designs. It's nothing for a HT for 30 people, but the very best fidelity for smaller to medium spaces that seek the best. For bigger HTs its probably better to go with big Genelec.
post #67 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post

Dynaudio is for sure a nice brand, owned some myself some years ago (Esotar tweeters), but their technology is nothing from a different planet, that is sometimes implied in here by some very enthusiastic posts.

Im certainly not claiming the technology is from another planet. My enthusiasm is in their execution. Quite simply can attest that Dynaudio acoustics out-transparenthises Genelec. In the BM line and the Munro line.

So an easy solution then for someone not wanting to make the huge mistake of having the same sized powered speakers in multichannel, doing the far field fronts with midfield surrounds application instead is go for broke with the munro m5's up front and use multiple arrays of BM12a's with multiple matrixed surround channels (11.1 bass managed setup) .You will have quite a bit of coin left over and an unbeatable system.
post #68 of 179
I'm being honest, as long as this is not proven in leveled in blind a/b test in the same room, I'm being pushed to doubt that statement. When you mean Dynaudo drivers, well, their highs are unparalled in smoothness then I agree. However, that is no attribute of a good speaker. A good speaker will not do anything else than show what is on the medium. If you want a certain sound then its up to the individual person. You simply cannot argue about taste.

I can only agree that Dynaudio builds some of the nicest looking speakers out there, almost art. The wood finishes are truely among the very best, if not the best (I love their "Consequence" in that respect). And yes, Danish people do not lie



On sound I'd rather shop elsewhere.
post #69 of 179
ME TOO! Id shop at MBL till id drop but $$$$.

The thread is about Genelec, you say speakers are about personal taste, hold it right there. I am sorry ANYONE CAN HEAR A CLAW SKREESHING THROUGH A BLACKBOARD. JBL synthesis can be very close to that, the Genelec are far from that but not that much, not far enough, the Dynaudios are away, far from the skreeshing claw effect. You say it is about taste I say it is about aversion to sadomasochism. Genelec's are not nearly as transparent as Dynaudio's. Transparency=low fatigue factor (the opposite of a massochistic experience).

That is all I am saying.
post #70 of 179
Transparency = low fatigue factor (the opposite of a massochistic experience).

Hmmmm.....is that really the correct definition ? Sounds like a new one.....
post #71 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburnstein View Post

What are Bespoke speakers????

Custom made, as in bespoke tailoring. Im trying to inject some culture here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bespoke
post #72 of 179
So if bespoke speakers are turned on and being used, are they then 'bespeaking'?

I do like that word. Looked it up, will be using it today in an email or three.
post #73 of 179
Is bespoke a synonym for aforementioned?
post #74 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme View Post

So if bespoke speakers are turned on and being used, are they then 'bespeaking'?

I do like that word. Looked it up, will be using it today in an email or three.

Its a beautiful word. I was speaking to a tailor recently, an English guy who had worked in Saville Row and moved over here.

I was stating my preference for Hugo Boss, I politely asked how he honestly regarded them. He looked me straight in the eye and said.......

"They are really rather vulgar, and the thought of non bespoke tailoring actually offends my nostrils"

I though what an awesome put down and logged it away and pull it out, in adapted form, frequently.It can be applied to anything, cars being especially effective.

I now share it with the forum members.

The guy is now my tailor
post #75 of 179
Oh my God I looked it up. Bespeaking is what I do all day long. IDNK. Thanks.
post #76 of 179
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

ME TOO! Id shop at MBL till id drop but $$$$.

The thread is about Genelec, you say speakers are about personal taste, hold it right there. I am sorry ANYONE CAN HEAR A CLAW SKREESHING THROUGH A BLACKBOARD. JBL synthesis can be very close to that, the Genelec are far from that but not that much, not far enough, the Dynaudios are away, far from the skreeshing claw effect. You say it is about taste I say it is about aversion to sadomasochism. Genelec's are not nearly as transparent as Dynaudio's. Transparency=low fatigue factor (the opposite of a massochistic experience).

That is all I am saying.

Interesting comment. Leads me straight to my next question...

Any other metaphors/analogies/or just plain comments about the different sonic signatures of Genelec versus Dynaudio? - this goes to all readers.

Personally I prefer a "somewhat more forward, "into your face", "sharp", "right on the edge of being considered "bright"" kind of sound over any "smooth", "soft", "warm", "relaxing " approach. It has to be dynamic (micro, macro) and above all revealing - not necessarily sound "nice" all the time - or to use your words: "A CLAW SKREESHING THROUGH A BLACKBOARD" should sound as skreeshing as it sounds (read: hard transitions), and not "smooth and golden". Alot of soft domes have the tendency - IMHO - to make sources sound "nice and pleasant" - too much so for my liking.

Sure - ultimately transparency is the goal. So Cineramax, you are saying the "rather smooth" sound of Dynaudios soft domes is much truer to the source then what Genelecs/JBLs/Wilson Audio and many others provide?
post #77 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion View Post

Personally I prefer a "somewhat more forward, "into your face", "sharp", "right on the edge of being considered "bright"" kind of sound over any "smooth", "soft", "warm", "relaxing " approach.

Sure - ultimately transparency is the goal. So Cineramax, you are saying the "rather smooth" sound of Dynaudios soft domes is much truer to the source then what Genelecs/JBLs/Wilson Audio and many others provide?

I have not kept up with Wilson since the original Watt Puppies or the Wham, personally i think they nailed the design of the surround speakers dead on, but have not heard. When i did listen to them 17 years ago, specially when fed by ar tube gear, they seemed to roar a little bit. More of a chesty warm thing.

The dynaudios do convey "air" really well, the sound is really ethereal, with punch and balls, not mellow warm, although the new Saphyres are an exersize in acoustic schizophrenia to be reckoned with (they sound like different speakers every time you change the song). Really cool.

Genelec is in home theater because Tom Doherty did an install once and the sheep followed and he was the president of CEDIA so Genelec took advantage of it. But Tom is a businessman and he couldn't care less to find a better speaker. Hey it was what the studios use to use so it made marketing sense.

But times have changed, Genelec are constantly being replaced by Dyn Acoustics in major studios, there are extensive lists somewhere. The truth now can be dissipated very quickly through the internet. Genelec your time is up, you milked the cow enough, enough is enough, go back to the drawing board, do not pass go, do not collect $200 and call me when you "take the grit out of your air".
post #78 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Oh my God I looked it up. Bespeaking is what I do all day long. IDNK. Thanks.

Yes indeed, you are an installer......... "Offering bespoke solutions to a discerning clientèle, who value the synergistic amalgamation of quality and performance, tailored to the individual project objectives".

Send my fee in the normal manner. Hope you liked it.
post #79 of 179
I don't know, I had the impression with Esotars as if all recordings did have that "tamed" treble sound......
post #80 of 179
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the comments, Cineramax.

I guess using drivers in rather pricey "state-of-the-art" 2008 high-end speakers that were used 20 years ago without a change in specs is - per definitionem - "milking the cow" (enough).

This was exactly my initial point. But I still think they sound "great".

Which Dynaudio would you recommend as substitute for a Genelec 1037C (12" bass - 5" mid - 1" treble, 180-120-120 Watt - street price ~$3500.- per piece - http://www.genelec.com/1037c/specs/)?

M2 - M3 - Air 20?
post #81 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion View Post

I guess using drivers in rather pricey "state-of-the-art" 2008 high-end speakers that were used 20 years ago without a change in specs is - per definitionem - "milking the cow" (enough).

Not true at all, and don't let anyone here drag you by the nose like one either, myself included.
post #82 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

I did, not in the same class tbh. I found the Genelec and Dynaudio to be superior. Im also hearing great things regarding custom solutions. Im led to believe that the best bespokes can equal these other options in general performance but with custom advantages, especially integration and allowing some major aesthetic control.

Have you listened to one in a properly setup room?
post #83 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmont View Post

Have you listened to one in a properly setup room?

Yes i have, they were demo'd in a truly outstanding facility.
post #84 of 179
CM... you need to talk to Mark Seaton. you really do. his ability to come up with custom stuff is almost without equal.

As far as some of the more out there comments...

Quote:


you say speakers are about personal taste, hold it right there. I am sorry ANYONE CAN HEAR A CLAW SKREESHING THROUGH A BLACKBOARD.

And taste equals opinion... and everybody has one. the only FACTS that are out there are measurements. so your hyperbole is only your opinion. if you care to show a ream of measurements demonstrating superiority of one over the other, then a Fact would enter your discourse and of course the rest of us would fall down in shock.

Quote:


synthesis can be very close to that, the Genelec are far from that but not that much, not far enough,

Again, opinion. opinion that obviously shows a hearing issue.

Quote:


You say it is about taste I say it is about aversion to sadomasochism. Genelec's are not nearly as transparent as Dynaudio's. Transparency=low fatigue factor (the opposite of a massochistic experience).

Again, opinion. one that proclaims to know all there is. all these things we talk about with speakers are purely opinion. your throwing around a few press releases that a few groups switched form one monitor to another is nothing but some marketing. so BBC switched in some room refurbs... who cares. as it has been stated, in 5 years they will switch again. And guess what? somewhere somebody has switched out some Dynaudios for something else yet again.

And has been echoed many times here. there have been evolution in all speakers in the last 20 years. the only real revolutions have been in the areas of room processing and DSP and class D and T amps. A well designed cabinet from 20 years ago is still a well designed cabinet. now it is true that with modelling software we can make more efficient cabinets, and get more out of a smaller package, but it is still the same sound range getting to our ears that we need to do.

One other area where revolution has happened is the acoustic modeling software. THings like Ease and Lara. what they can do to model a room and design ways to ensure coverage and avoid reflections is amazing.


And hey, if you want lots of punishing bass... just build a sub line array. Lots of people did it (unintentionally) over the last 20 years. they are killer if you are in the hot seat...
post #85 of 179
One of the problems as a designer is when the client has no clue what they want.

We have our favorite designs that work very nice. It can be difficult and overwhelming to the client to see/hear all possible options. It will drive you mad.

So there is a level of bias of personal taste in the recommendations we give. I for one will not purchase 50-250K of gear in hopes that a client might like it someday down the road. I would rather fly with them to the manufacturer's facility to audition boutique equipment. Unless, I have an installation already done that is local.

People always love a free tour with champagne. I learned a long time ago, make certain someone can afford what you are demo'ing. Otherwise it's a really awesome novelty that makes you no money.
post #86 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

CM... you need to talk to Mark Seaton. you really do.

Thanks for the thought, we are aware of each other
post #87 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

The thread is about Genelec, you say speakers are about personal taste, hold it right there. I am sorry ANYONE CAN HEAR A CLAW SKREESHING THROUGH A BLACKBOARD. JBL synthesis can be very close to that,

As usual the biggest mouth gets the most attention in a thread.

JBL Synthesis has been used in countless high-end theater rooms by CIs and professional acoustic companies all to great success.

I think the OP should take a listen to them before deciding since he is obviously on the fence about the audio portion of his system.

That said apart from upgrading equipment the room acoustics are absolutely vital to an excellent sounding room so I would enthusiastically recommend the OP look into the services of an acoustician. It will help immensely regardless of what equipment package you choose to go with.
post #88 of 179
Kindly piss off. How about being one of the first JBL Synthesis one victims. I fell for it and could not regret it enough afterwards. It is a claw skreeshing on a blackboard, horns, poor lexicon reverberation and bryston amps are a very poor combination.
post #89 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmont View Post


JBL Synthesis has been used in countless high-end theater rooms by CIs

So has Bose
post #90 of 179
Having not given a listen to wilson I really think that Snell has a great sounding speaker line. So it is not like I am anti speakers made in america, but the JBL Synthesis fad is way obsolete in my book.
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