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TVONE Blending Info, General Q&A or just how to? - Page 2

post #31 of 878
"I don't see any reason to bother with what Bob is talking about. In Bob's scenario, you would be placing a 3x4 image on a 4x3 tube. If you maximize vertical phosphor usage, then you would only be using about half of the phosphor in the horizontal. I guess you could burn out one side of the tube and still have the other side as virgin phosphor. Also, I am not sure how bandwidth affects the image in the vertical and horizontal for the same given bandwidth i.e. does 1600x1200 look the same as 1200x1600. Maybe tse could give some insight on this."

Ericglo - This is in the analog domain - not digital, so pixels are not square. The final output resolution fed to the projector(s) will not change the shape or size of the picture. It will still combine to 2.35 and fill both tubes both horizontally and vertically. What my intention is to not waste available bandwidth capability and vertical resolution capability by increasing the number of horizontal lines. Using only 817 lines on the full height of a 9" tube is not only a waste of resolution capability but it will create scan lines visible from 15 feet away.
Just a few years ago when scalers were new, we all marveled at how well 480i scaled up to 720, or 960P looked. I just want to do the same thing for the same reasons, and just like before, it will not change the size of the picture!
post #32 of 878
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuchuf View Post

Gino,
Actually it's 1600x 1200 @72 that I have setup. And if you go to the other thread that Alan had started about blending you will see how I proved that indeed I am running digital in and digital out of the C2-7200 based on the Moome devices that are attached.

Yeh, typo, I knew it was 72hz but am used to writing 1600x1200p60 because i keep complaining about this limitation in the DVX.

It's not that I don't believe you Terry, just would be nice for Andy to confirm as he said that he had tried this already and it was limited, and the guys from TVOne are saying that it is limited.

If I decide to try one out, I'd hate to buy one and find out mine is limited.
post #33 of 878
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrwhite View Post

Hi Terry / Andy,

I've used the 7xxx series a number of times for work related (broadcast graphics )system configurations. One of the challenges we faced with the 7xxx series was that if you fed it anything above 1280x1024 via DVI, it would get downsampled to 1280x1024 internally. To get around this ( and stay in the digital domain ) we had to feed them 1080p/60 via HD-SDI ( which worked great ).

I've spoken with their engineers in person at trade shows a number of times, and they said that the DVI max resolution was a hardware issue they couldn't fix. It was last April at NAB that I spoke with them last .. is there new developments on this? The spec sheet on their site still says 1280x1024 max via DVI.

Jonathan

Thanks for this Jonathon, again this is inline with my current thinking, and I actually guessed that even if you were able to feed it something greater, due to the chip limitation it would downsample back to 1280x1024.

As far as 1080p/60 over HD-SDI, is this bandwidth available over single link or dual link? Can it go higher? Say 1080p72?

Did you test the DVI outs to have the same limitation?
post #34 of 878
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post

Using only 817 lines on the full height of a 9" tube is not only a waste of resolution capability but it will create scan lines visible from 15 feet away.
Just a few years ago when scalers were new, we all marveled at how well 480i scaled up to 720, or 960P looked. I just want to do the same thing for the same reasons, and just like before, it will not change the size of the picture!

When I read that Andy was doing 817 lines on a 9" tube, I thought the same thing, but he told me it wasn't an issue. Could be that he is using a relatively "small" screen for a blend setup
post #35 of 878
Oh boy do I wish that Ken could measure that. That has got to be bright as hell.

And sharp as hell as well.

Cliff
post #36 of 878
Thread Starter 
Just a quick note on scan lines.

A single PJ on say a 12 foot screen will show the scan lines much more than the same PJ used in a blend.

The same is true for a 12 foot blend screen down to an 8 foot screen - the scan lines are less visible on the smaller screen.

However it is also true that you sit further away from the larger screen so there is a correlation between PJ distance from screen and Seated distance with respect to scan lines, This would then appear to have an "ideal" location.

Take into account different eye sights and we have a real complicated equation for the "ideal" scenario.

So what I think best for the question of scan lines is each to his/her own.

This also is the case for screen size, Most blending has been done on 12 foot screens, Mine is only eight foot wide.

As Cliff points out I am both Sharp and Bright, As Hell .
post #37 of 878
What a great thread.

Thanks guys!

post #38 of 878
Thread Starter 
DVI TYPES

The DVI style connector seems to add confusion here, There are FIVE types of DVI connection.

Please see here for examples
http://www.datapro.net/techinfo/dvi_info.html#Page06

TERRY - It would appear the easy way to check you are running DVI-D all the way is to make sure your cables are all DVI-D type.

The most common seems to be DVI-I Dual Link and this is possible to run Analogue and Digital down this cable type.



I am trying to run some tests here with regards the input/output questions. I will also contact TVONE about some of the questions raised here. That will be next week as the main team I contact are away at a show.

I have the following here I can test

INPUTS

Toshiba HD DVD XA1 with HD SDI Modification - this will give me 1080i60 HD SDI output
Toshiba HD DVD XE1 (aka XA2) standard player
Samsung Blu Ray BDP-S1000 Standard USA player
Sony Blu Ray S1 with HD SDI Modification USA Player - This will give me 1080p24 HD SDI output (I need to check which other outputs are available, NOT ALL standard player outputs can be sent out via the HD SDI, This is a modification limitation and NOT TVONE limitation)
Gefen HD SDI to DVI-D scaler - This allows me to send DVI-D direct into the TVONE
HD Fury - Little hit n miss with this product but does give some RGBHV inputs into the TVONE unit, Again the limitation is the HD Fury - It does not give 1080p60 without the use of external power supply when used with an XE1.

(Moome External box on order)

Outputs

Barco Cine9 (RGBHV)
NEC 50" Plasma (DVI & RGBHV)
PC Monitor - (DVI & RGBHV)

Phew! That looks like my weekend is now planned
post #39 of 878
Andy, it will be great if this units DVI is up to scratch. The moome external will make connection to the 7200 a breeze. I am using it and sending 1080p72 over DVI without problems.
post #40 of 878
Guys,

I have explained the physical hookup on this a few times on the other thread and here so I am not going to go into it again.
I have also contacted Moome on the EXT-HD and Marquee VIM-HD and he responded to me that the DVI output and HDMI input are digital only. The phyical connector on the EXT-HD is DVI-D single layer (Gino you have one so please confirm on yours) Kal has also emailed me that the EXT-HD DVI out is digital only.
So as far as I'm concerned I have done all the checking I can do and am convinced that the signal coming into the C2-7200 and going out of the C2-7200 is digital. I don't see how it can be anything else. The cables certainly aren't doing a DA or A/D.

Terry
post #41 of 878
Hi Andy,

Terry's experimental set-up is all digital signal path to the PJ's.

Toshiba hdmi>>>Moome DVI-D>>>7200 DVI input>>>DVI output>>>hdmi moome VIM.

The connector for output on the moome external box is DVI-D, there are NO
analog pins. The connections from the 7200 are DVI to hdmi cables, and
Moome has confirmed there is NO analog signal path in his hdmi VIM.

Terry has also confirmed the input frequencies on the Ultra's match
the output configuration of the 7200, eg. there is NO "down-rezzing"

Cheers,
Galen
post #42 of 878
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrwhite View Post

Hi Terry / Andy,

One of the challenges we faced with the 7xxx series was that if you fed it anything above 1280x1024 via DVI, it would get downsampled to 1280x1024 internally. To get around this ( and stay in the digital domain ) we had to feed them 1080p/60 via HD-SDI ( which worked great ).
Jonathan

Hi Jonathan and thankes for your input.
When you fed DVI-D above 1280x1024 are you saying that there is a downsampling that lead to an output from the C2-7xxx of 1280x1024?
If so I am not seeing this as I can see that the projector is running at 90khz 72hz which would be the same as the 1600x 1200 @72 I have the C2 set to.

Terry
post #43 of 878
Hi Gino,

Typo on my part, we were running 1080i/60 via single link. We were testing with 1080p via VGA.

AFIK, there were no limits on the DVI-D out, just the DVI-D in.

Jonathan
post #44 of 878
Thread Starter 
Hi Terry,

I see you are sending 1080p24 INTO the TVONE unit.

This is possible via DVI-D, you can go upto 1080p30 in the INPUTS via DVI-D.

In fact that is what I do with my XA1 HD SDI output 1080i60 into Gefen unit which gives 1080p24 or 30 output into the 7200.

NOTHING ABOVE 1080p30 will be accepted on the input.

So that is the input to the unit agreed that 1080p24 or 1080p30 is possible.


(internal downscale I will have to check with TVONE but that has not cropped up in conversations to date, ALSO HD SDI maxium input I will try and test, Followed by output DVI-D - ONE stage at a time........)
post #45 of 878
Quote:


I will also contact TVONE about some of the questions raised here. That will be next week as the main team I contact are away at a show.

I also have sent e-mails to Dan Gibson at Tv-one and he contacted the tech's at the show and they might respond on this thread directly. I hope they do as this will be Great to have th TV-One people on board here at AVS.

Athanasios
post #46 of 878
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrwhite View Post

Hi Gino,

Typo on my part, we were running 1080i/60 via single link. We were testing with 1080p via VGA.

AFIK, there were no limits on the DVI-D out, just the DVI-D in.

Jonathan

OK, If here we mean via HD SDI Single link 1080i60 is possible then yes I totally agree and have run this without question direct from my Toshiba XA1 (Its highest possible output)

You can also run 1080p24 or 1080p30 via HD SDI into the 7200 - I have 1080p24 running via HD SDI direct from my Sony S1.

Outputs: I have to date only been running VGA to my PJ's, So will need a little setting up if I am to try DVI-D outputs.
post #47 of 878
As zGman pointed out but with cables and resolutions added it is:

Toshiba HD-DVD hdmi (1080P24) w/ HDMI ->HDMI cable >>>Moome EXT HD DVI-D(1080P24) DVI-D -> HDMI cable going through a HDMI/DVI adapter plugged into the 7200>>>7200 DVI input>>>DVI output(1600x1200@72) w/ DVI-D ->HDMI cable>>>hdmi moome VIM.

Terry
post #48 of 878
AND here is the email I received from Kal when I started to question all of this w/ Moome:

Hi Terry!

Kal here! The HDMI input on the VIM-HD is 100% digital. HDMI does not have any way of passing analog signals. So by spec, the plug is definitely 100% digital only.
The output of the VIM-HD onto the Marquee backplane is of course analog.

The DVI-D output of the EXT-HD is indeed digital only (not DVI-A or DVI-I). There is no analog part at all.

Kal
post #49 of 878
Also, this is the exact setup, cables and pojectors I had when testing the 8022 except that I don't need the VP50Pro in this setup between the Toshiba and Moome EXTHD and it was all digital as well.

Terry
post #50 of 878
Hi Terry,

No, we were testing dual PIP mode, and everything was scaled to the window size at the spcified output resolution ( including having the window at full screen ). I also seem to remember testing in Switcher Mode, and the input was scaled to the specified output resolution.

Jonathan
post #51 of 878
Thread Starter 
NO ONE TYPE ANYTHING FOR A FEW MINUTES PLEASE.........................

I have the answers just need to type !!!
post #52 of 878
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMrH View Post

NO ONE TYPE ANYTHING FOR A FEW MINUTES PLEASE.........................

I have the answers just need to type !!!

Easy there big fella !

Athanasios
post #53 of 878
Thread Starter 
CONFIRMED INPUTS:

DVI-D will accept 1080p30 as its MAXIMUM input signal
HD-SDI will accept 1080p30 as its MAXIMUM input signal.

BOTH of these are not down scaled in any way within the TVONE unit

(unless you output at a lower resolution of course)

OUTPUTS , EDIT : DIGITAL OUTPUT via DVI-D

the OUTPUT has a maximum bandwidth of 108Mhz

1600x1200@72Hz is 162Mhz bandwidth.

It will NOT output 1600x1200@72 , BUT your projector WILL see the output as if it were 1600x1200@72

How does this happen?

Easy when you know how.........

ANYTHING above the 108MHz limit is downscaled to fit the bandwidth, BUT ALL sync pulses are kept intact. Thus the PJ thinks it has a 1600x1200@72Hz signal but in fact the resolution is less and kept within the 108Mhz Bandwidth.

This info has come directly from TVONE, I hope I have relayed it all correctly.

This now makes what Terry is seeing understandable.
post #54 of 878
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMrH View Post

ANYTHING above the 108MHz limit is downscaled to fit the bandwidth, BUT ALL sync pulses are kept intact. Thus the PJ thinks it has a 1600x1200@72Hz signal but in fact the resolution is less and kept within the 108Mhz Bandwidth.

This info has come directly from TVONE, I hope I have relayed it all correctly.

This now makes what Terry is seeing understandable.

This makes no sense to me at all as at the PJ I am seeing frequencies if <90KHz and 72Hz. Clearly the Marquee thinks it is in "high" mode as I can hear it switch to that. I am fairly sure we are getting 72hz refresh as well.
As an experiment I am going to output 1A with a resolution of 1280 x 1024 and leave 2B "unlocked" at 1600 x 1200 and see if there is any difference in the picture.
Then I will take 2B and come out analog into the 5bnc of the PJ and see if there is a difference.

Terry
post #55 of 878
I think I see what is happening now.

read this http://www.eepn.com/Locator/Products...510/34510.html

and this http://www.extron.com/company/article.aspx?id=vidband3

The first article point out that UXGA (1600 x 1200 @60) requires 87 MHz.

But that in order to pass the high frequency stuff we need a much higher bandwidth 2-3 times the original bandwidth defined as (Tp x Vt)/2

So the original bandwidth of a 1600 x 1200 @72 is ((1600 x 1200) x 72) / 2 = 69.12 MHz.

Based on that the TV One can process the base video signal it just won't be able to do anything above 108MHz acording to what you are saying Andy.

This explain why I am see what I am and I believe that I am receiving a 1600 x 1200 @72 at the PJ, it is just limited in bandwidth.

Terry
post #56 of 878
Thread Starter 
Terry,

The PJ WILL run at 72Hz, the PJ WILL think it is a high bandwidth signal as ALL the sync pulses will tell it that. The actual resolution WONT be the 1600x1200

So what you report to seeing is I believe correct, just that the PJ is fooled into thinking it has the full signal when in reality the resolution is lower. Refresh rate will still be @ 72Hz.


This makes sense to me.
post #57 of 878
Thread Starter 
Terry,

I need to pop out for an hour or so......

Just looking quickly at your last post are they 1600x1200@60 I or P ???

They look like I values.....I will check in more detail when I return.

Andy.
post #58 of 878
Andy - When you say that the output is limited to 108Mhz, are you speaking only of the digital output, or both digital and analog outputs?
Hopefully only the digital output has this limitation!
post #59 of 878
OK guys, quick and dirty test to see if I can see a difference between the analog and digital out's of the C2-7100.
I left output 2B digital as it has been hooked up all along.
I then took output 1A via a DVI-VGA dongle hooked up RGBHV to input 1 of the PJ through the bnc connectors
Mind you I don't have perfect focus nor perfect convergence or geometry on the PJ's as I am shooting on a wall and didn't think I needed that for my initial tests. So the PJ's are certainly off.
I then used the multiburst pattern in the HD version of VE and could no see any high frequency rolloff of PJ 2 (full digital on output 2B)
I don't have time to test any more today but tomorrow I will do further testing with higher resolution test patterns and see what the difference is between analog out and digital out of the C2-7200.

Alan if you are reading this tell them I need the unit for a few more days.

Terry
post #60 of 878
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post

Andy - When you say that the output is limited to 108Mhz, are you speaking only of the digital output, or both digital and analog outputs?
Hopefully only the digital output has this limitation!

Yes, Digital Output.

Tha Analogue output seems to be designed for something that NASA might have as a concept as it runs seriously high bandwidth......

I will correct prior post.

Andy.
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