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TVONE Blending Info, General Q&A or just how to? - Page 3

post #61 of 878
Terry,

When is the big demo party
post #62 of 878
If I ever go to a blend system - which won't be for a couple years or so - I will have to go cheap. The most likely candidate for cheap right now is a pair of TVONE C2-260 PC cards. What I want to know is about Genlock. This is easily done on the dual scaler TVONE C2-7000 series but not so on the single scaler options. As I read the manual, if you want to genlock between two single TVONE scalers you cannot use the RGB input. This I don't want to do. What is given up, if anything, by not using the genlock option?
post #63 of 878
One thing does not make sense about blending to me. The sharpest part of the CRT is the center. With blend you are putting two sides in the center forcing the least sharp part of the picture to be right dab in the most important part of the film.
post #64 of 878
Thread Starter 
Hi Alan,

I have tested this with the 7200 NOT genlocked.

I have NEVER had an issue without genlock.

Of course for peace of mind I have output2 genlocked to output1.

With the 260 cards you use a signal splitter prior to the cards.

I dont see that the lack of genlock will be an issue (But not tested that with the 260 option)
post #65 of 878
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottatl View Post

One thing does not make sense about blending to me. The sharpest part of the CRT is the center. With blend you are putting two sides in the center forcing the least sharp part of the picture to be right dab in the most important part of the film.

Sort of.......

With ONE PJ you run MUCH higher bandwidth and that does soften the image - more so I would say than the optics cause.

(EDIT : large screen blends tend to use HFQ900 Barco or HD10F Sony lens sets, I have actualy run HFQ900 on my 8 foot wide blend)

With the blend much lower bandwidth for each PJ and so already sharper than the single PJ option, Add in the brightness given as well and these are all plus points in favour of the blend over single PJ - This is from the view of best possible image and does not include thoughts for £/$ !
post #66 of 878
Thread Starter 
I have just setup a custom resolution in the TVONE 7200 unit.

Easy to do.

1. Run Resolution editor on PC, PC will need an RS232 port.
2. Load resolutions from TVONE unit - takes about 10 seconds
3. Create new resolution, to do this just type into text boxes the H res, V res and refresh rate - Simple.
4. press "create resolution" button.
5. load into TVONE unit - takes about 10 seconds.

Job Done.

So now I'm running 1089 x 817 @ 72 for each output via RGBHV analogue

NO SCAN lines, VERY Bright picture

And detail to die for But that's BARCO for ya!
post #67 of 878
Quote:


NO SCAN lines, VERY Bright picture

And detail to die for But that's BARCO for ya!

ehhh you and your Barcos

Athanasios
post #68 of 878
This is all very interesting stuff, thanks Andy and Terry

Looks like I'll be sticking with the trusty ol' DVX8022/BlendZilla for now.
post #69 of 878
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan halvorson View Post

If I ever go to a blend system - which won't be for a couple years or so - I will have to go cheap. The most likely candidate for cheap right now is a pair of TVONE C2-260 PC cards. What I want to know is about Genlock. This is easily done on the dual scaler TVONE C2-7000 series but not so on the single scaler options. As I read the manual, if you want to genlock between two single TVONE scalers you cannot use the RGB input. This I don't want to do. What is given up, if anything, by not using the genlock option?

I tested the 260 cards.
I expect them to be replaced by another product this year, hopefully without the input chipset limitation and at least DVI in- if not output.

Genlock was NOT an issue in my tests - I ran video to both cards and it was in perfect sync.
post #70 of 878
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottatl View Post

One thing does not make sense about blending to me. The sharpest part of the CRT is the center. With blend you are putting two sides in the center forcing the least sharp part of the picture to be right dab in the most important part of the film.

I tried a blend with an 8" NEC 9PG plus and 8" 9PG extra and they were sharper than the 909 - that should answer your question

So while there is a dropoff to the sides it is not as much of an issue as one might think and it is less of a problem with projectors that focus as good out to the edges as the G90 and the 909/Cine9.
post #71 of 878
Did some tests yesterday w/ the TVOne C2-7200.

First I took the HDMI out of the HDDVD player set at 1080P60 and ran it into the Moome EXT-HD and then took the DVI out and RGBHV out and ran that into the Marquee inputs, one RGBHV Input one the other the Moome Card HDMI Input 2.
Looked at high resolution patterns from DVI HD DVD that included one line set to 1080P. Clearly the lines were resolved very well on both inputs.

I then hooked the HD DVD player set to 1080P24 up to the the Moome EXT HD via HDVI and DVI out to the TVOne's HDMI input. On one output I used a DVI/VGA dongel and it went to input one of the Marquee via RGBHV. Output 2 DVI-D was then sent to the HDMI in on the Moome card on the Marquee so it was digital. This way I could compare both the digital and analog outputs of the C2-7200.
Here is what I noticed.

1. At 1600 x 1200 @ 72 hz, the patterns didn't look as good as when fed directly to the PJ either digital or analog. This may be due to scalling error or the PJ.

2. At 1920 x 1080P @60, the patterns looked almost the same on both the digital and analog side of the C2-7200 and they looked almost as good as the patterns when the signals were sent directly to the projector from the HD DVD player.

3. I had a quick look at other resolutions (1280 x 1024 @60, 1400 x 1050 @ 60) and while the patterns didn't look as good as the 1920 x 1080P @ 60 setup they did look better than the 1600 x 1200 @72 setup.

From this I concluded:

1. With these high resolution test patterns I could see no difference between the analog and digital outs of the C2-7200 no matter what the resolution. If it was good, both sides were good and visa versa. This is interesting and coincides with the results I got previously indicating that the digital out is doing as good a job and the analog out.

2. 1920 x 1080P produced the best test pattern out of the C2-7200 and it was close to the same between the digital and analog outs. They were also close to the results I got when running the HD-DVD player directly to the Marquee via the EXT-HD.

More tests to follow. These mainly showed that both the analog and digital out's of the C2-7200 can be used with the same results.

Terry
post #72 of 878
I think I will have a look at 1440 x 1080P today as that would be a 4:3 resolution for each PJ. And with about a 10% blend zone would be almost a perfect 2.4:1 A/R.

Terry
post #73 of 878
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottatl View Post

One thing does not make sense about blending to me. The sharpest part of the CRT is the center. With blend you are putting two sides in the center forcing the least sharp part of the picture to be right dab in the most important part of the film.

Yes, it is more commonly known that the center of CRT is the sharpest. And in most cases it is because most CRT's do not have good focus out to the edges.

There's two reasons for this. One is the design of the set itself, and the other is the lenses that were being used.

Blending is sort of new to me. Most of my A/V experience was dealing with Edge Matching. Which is another way to bring images together (non seamless).

In the higher end simulation/blend systems of today, the lenses used on the Marquee's, G90 and Barco 1209 would not be "simulation/blend rated" lenses. And that's where the HFQ900 came into existence. They are special lenses designed for this purpose. It's more of a solid lens design, which is known to be both expensive and would be very different from the multi-element lens designs of past.

The HFQ900 are very linear, with almost no optical aberrations out to the edges of the image. Which makes for the perfect lens for simulation, Blending and high end HT systems.

I'm now in the blend camp. Servicing and maintaining close to a dozen simulation/blend systems along the central east coast. From time to time, I get to meet up with others who design and also service these setups.

Learning about the HFQ's and why there's a 1400x1050 resolution being used in most of them is interesting. Though most of the immersive (stereoscopic) blend setups use 1280x1024 @96hz.

With blending, it is very important to use the right resolution/aspect, which would produce the perfect 4:3 pattern for each projected image.
post #74 of 878
OK I have pretty much finished testing the C2-7200 and have concluded the following using 1080P24 HDMI input.

1. I cannot see the difference between analog output and digital output. This was tested at various resolutions up to 1600 x 1200 @72
2. The ability to create custom resolutions (very easy) is a powerful part of this scaler/blender and is a big plus
3. The ability to zoom vertically and horizontally really helps you to get the best test patterns out.
4. Blending is very easy on the C2
5. Unit is small in size
6. Although I would like to see 1080P60 input it certainly isn't a deal breaker in this case.
7. Individual control over the blend zones allows for a lot of tweaking in that area.

As you can tell I am very pleased with the C2-7200 and wouldn't hesitate to use it over the 8022 in most cases where blending is needed and the need for a 1080P60 input isn't necessary.

I believe that I will be setting up the G90's individually at somewhere around 1440 x 1080P 60 and 72hz. I like the idea of going to a higher resolution than the 8XX resolution Andy is using to avoid scan nines. Remember that we are going to be using the entire height of the tube and resolutions of 8XX on a 16:9 picture can be seen in a G90 because of it's great focusing abilities. But I may change my mind on this in the future. With custom resolutions anything is possible.

I have pretty much concluded the testing I am going to do for now so the unit I have will have to go back as it is a factory demo.

Terry
post #75 of 878
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs View Post

I tested the 260 cards.
I expect them to be replaced by another product this year, hopefully without the input chipset limitation and at least DVI in- if not output.

Genlock was NOT an issue in my tests - I ran video to both cards and it was in perfect sync.

Thanks for the genlock answer. That's what I was hoping for.

Do you have some information about a new card or are you expressing a desire for a new card? I was considering getting one C2-260 and when I was ready, another. But not if something new and improved is coming this year.
post #76 of 878
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuchuf View Post

I think I will have a look at 1440 x 1080P today as that would be a 4:3 resolution for each PJ. And with about a 10% blend zone would be almost a perfect 2.4:1 A/R.

Terry - that would be the optimum resolution to send, that is what I have been begging analogway to allow... 1440x1080p72
post #77 of 878
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan halvorson View Post

Thanks for the genlock answer. That's what I was hoping for.

Do you have some information about a new card or are you expressing a desire for a new card? I was considering getting one C2-260 and when I was ready, another. But not if something new and improved is coming this year.

Alan, didn't you say you would want to wait more than a year ?
But I can understand that waiting is hard in such a case

I am not privvy to information with regard to what exactly TV One plans with regard to releases but I think that it has come to their attention that the 108Mhz input bandwidth is rather low and that the analog inputs of the cards seriously diminish picture quality. I would not think that analog outputs if properly implemented would be a problem but having a D/A and A/D conversion on the input side seems to cause problems.

And as you know when starting out with a certain kind of product most companies tend to release a successor to the first one rather fast and the C2-260 is already out for some time so we can at least hope
post #78 of 878
Quote:


Alan, didn't you say you would want to wait more than a year ?

Yes, I did. I think it will be longer than that to attempt an actual blend. But I would like a scaler now and rather than waste money on a non-blending scaler, I thought to spread the cost out and get one C2-260 now and another later when I have found another projector and my situation changes so that I can use it.
post #79 of 878
The C2-260 is not comparable to a scaler at all, I suggest to spend the money on a Lumagen HDP if you want to buy a low priced scaler. Chances are that in another year you will be able to use the splitted DV output from the HDP to feed some kind of TV One product with DVI in.
post #80 of 878
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs View Post

The C2-260 is not comparable to a scaler at all, I suggest to spend the money on a Lumagen HDP if you want to buy a low priced scaler. Chances are that in another year you will be able to use the splitted DV output from the HDP to feed some kind of TV One product with DVI in.

I agree with Oliver, the card is not really a good option for a satand alone scaler, but thier boxed units are not bad if you only plan on doing the analog blend go with one of there lower priced box sclaer/blending units i think the C2-1250 or something like that does it for under 1700 just a bit more than the lumagen.


http://www.tvone.com/c2-1200-1250-main.shtml

And if you wanted some more inputs you could always add their input adapter box that conects to any C2 unit , this is the S2 series of input boxes like this DVI unit...

http://www.tvone.com/s2-105dvia-main.shtml




Athanasios
post #81 of 878
Ok, thanks for the advice on the C2-260. But I'm curious as to why you say it. Doesn't the C2-260 basically use the same Corio2 scaler that the C2-1250 and others use? It certainly isn't as convenient for inputs and outputs, but it's adequate for my purposes as all I need is one RGB and one component input and one RGB output. It doesn't downscale but then neither does the C2-1250. But I have no experience with either so I'm just wondering. Price matters to me right now.
post #82 of 878
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nashou66 View Post

And if you wanted some more inputs you could always add their input adapter box that conects to any C2 unit , this is the S2 series of input boxes like this DVI unit...

http://www.tvone.com/s2-105dvia-main.shtml

Athanasios

Just a quick note here.

This unit will attach to the 1000, 2000 & 7000 series units.

It has a 165MHz bandwidth for DVI-D.

PLEASE NOTE : The main scaler acts as a control for input switching of the slave device. The output is then passed into the main scaler - This unit DOES NOT give 165MHz bandwidth to the funtcions of the main scaler, instead it either operates standalone (165Mhz in / out) or under control of main scaler where the bandwidth is set by the main unit output.
post #83 of 878
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan halvorson View Post

Ok, thanks for the advice on the C2-260. But I'm curious as to why you say it. Doesn't the C2-260 basically use the same Corio2 scaler that the C2-1250 and others use? It certainly isn't as convenient for inputs and outputs, but it's adequate for my purposes as all I need is one RGB and one component input and one RGB output. It doesn't downscale but then neither does the C2-1250. But I have no experience with either so I'm just wondering. Price matters to me right now.

Alan,

I have a Lumagen and I have tested the C2-260. There is just no comparison in picture quality. I you don't believe me get both for yourself, the difference is so easy to see it's not funny.

As to the other devices I think they might give much better results because of their digital inputs, probably the analog input stage is mainly responsible for the not so hot picture quality.

Oliver
post #84 of 878
Thread Starter 
Another useful feature of the TVONE unit


The LED's are dimable From 100% right down to OFF (one of my requests )

And the LCD Backlight can be turned off from the menu, I have set up a Macro to switch it on/off. Might even be able to use a preset button - not sure about that as this is a very recent addition to the firmware - available in the current downloadable firmware (and another one of my requests )

One request still to add is a title screen where you can add your own text as a unit title or info screen.

This will be of use to those that use two 2000 series units, each can be named "Blend Left" , "Blend Right" or any other name you want "Mad World Cinema" etc.

This is still one on the request list, not all make it to final firmware but I can say that 90+% of my requests have made it.

TVONE are a very customer based company.

Of course my best request to date was when I asked for the original blend gamma control to have greater control - Its easy to ask for these things. TVONE then looked into how this could be done and added it into the firmware. Like I say easy to ask TVONE did all the hard work.
post #85 of 878
Hi Guys,
Quick intro... Im one of the design engineers for TV One... yes feel free to bombard me with questions.

Thanks Andy for that excellent post covering the 7000 series unit - yep I do try to put in most of your feature requests, and your edge blending input has been fantastic ;-)

As Dan mentioned in his email there are some developments comming in the near furture along the hardware lines that should make you all happy. There is also a new firmware update comming my the end of Q1 with a whole raft of improvements and feature modifications.

As Andy says we are pretty good at listing to what you guys want so let me know your wish lists.

I now open the flood gates for questions and feature requests !

Regards,

Rob
post #86 of 878
Rob , Welcome to our AVS CRT forum! I am excited to hear about the new hardware that will be comming out as the info presents itself. Edge blending here has been domintated by Analog Way's DiVentix scaler and with the arival of the Tv-One units it gives many who do not have the financial resourses a chance to also experiance the superior image of a well set up CRT blend. So from me and I am sure evryone else Thank you for honoring out request to Join AVS and keep us all updated to any new develpments form Tv-One. Id also Like to thank Dan Gibson And Steve Tullo for relaying any info I have been giving them to you Engineer's. Keep up the Excelent work!!!!!

Athanasios
post #87 of 878
Rob - This is excellent news and has me excited. Could you release a little info on your new plans and an approximate schedule of such release(s)?
If you are still at the beginning stages of design, I would like to make a recommendation for an entry level product whereby new prospects could use there existing scalers.
Think of a C2-260 that has the 15 pin HD-15 input and output dongles replaced with DVI-I's that could accept both analog and digital inputs and outputs. Also, as long as the digital input has bandwidth capabilities up to 1920X1080P@60, my check would be in the mail!

Thanks for listening,
Bob
post #88 of 878
The main this for me is Higher bandwidth capability. 11 point gama for both the blend zone and the non blend zone seperate of each other so as once the blend zone gama is set you can either have a global gama adjustment or seperate gama for each output exluding the blend zone. this way you can adjust the blend zone and do a global gama for the whole image and if need go into each output and touch up for any differneces of the projectors. Also HDCP compliance would be a big big big plus, and hopefully a lower price than the C2-7200.

Athanasios
post #89 of 878
Mad,
Have you checked out the lower priced models and their ability to do edge blending?
post #90 of 878
Hi Bob,

I have a 8022 myself. Based on reports it looks like the TV-ONE has better control over the blend zone and ARs. Are there any plans to include 1080p60 input, or better still some arbitrary resolution such as 1920x800p72 which would be the ideal input resolution for 2.40:1 and smooth 72 Hz?
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