TVONE Blending Info, General Q&A or just how to? - Page 26

Sweet, so you're saying all is well with HDCP... straight from source > VP50pro > splitter > TVOne? If that's the case I won't bother with the Moome EXT-HD

Looking good Athanasios! Remind me what size and type screen you are using.

I've got everything into the home theatre now, and have wired it all up. Tonight I check that both marquee's are working perfectly after having been boxed up for so long. Will probably take them apart first to check that my glycol problem hasn't returned.

Thanks Gino, I used the MUX due to the tv ones wating to use 1080p @60 and not 24. They have a edid editor but I didn't try to use it.

I'm using a Dalite 1.3 gain. 140" wide screen. I definitly see why
a unity gain would be best.

Athanasios

I wish, but no. I am using HD-SDI from BD into the VP50Pro at 24Hz. I then output 1080P@24 through the Monoprice splitter into the two TVOne's. Output from the TVOne's is 1064X1080P@72. I chose 1080 instead of 800 or 817 because I watch a lot of sports and didn't want to throw away any lines and I'm too lazy to setup two resolutions.

Bob

So it is still necessary to include a moome/hdcp stripper before the tvone's when using hdmi sources?

Gino, it depends sometimes on the player being used and if you using all the default resolutions in the Tv-One. The Tv-one likes to pick the closest input res if it cant' find the exact one. this is an issue really only during the start up of movie where some of the material is not true 1080p@24, so it blanks out etc till it finds the proper res, but if you have lots of choices in the Tv-Ones resolution library it might stick to one resolution you don't want to use( like 1080i). So i eliminated them all and only set it up with 1080p@24, 1064x800 and 1056x817 and thats it. I will add another one for 1.78 content at some point but you can use the aspect control in the unit to not really need it, but then you do alter the true resolution a bit.

Also If you dont need the DVDO try to not use it at first, one reason is you need to then make an exact copy of the timing numbers from the Vp50 to the Tv-one. I just left my lumagen out for now and it works great as is I might use it now since there is no gamma adjustment in the Tv-ones yet, not sure when they'll do it, if ever.

But try it either way with and with out its a simple swap out Gino, I like the Mux ,avoids any issues if any might show up.

But HDCP was not an issue for me its the resolution choices of the player that I had problems with.

Athanasios

Hey guys I also got this message from Robert today:


Bob,I sent a reply to him asking if they are completely ignoring the gamma adjustment or just postponing it, i think the former ( I hope).

I dont think they will forget it since they spent all the energy to have the protocols in place in the unit, Just no software. So i threw in the question if they want to subcontract out the software writing to your niece!! Lets see what he say's and if he will ask his superiors about it.

Athanasios

Gino - I'm pretty sure that Athanasios uses Moomes after the TVOne's - Correct me if I'm wrong here, Athanasios.

Gino, in order to eliminate any issues, you might consider getting an HD-SDI mod and then using an HD-Link to convert to DVI to feed your Lumagen. That way you get rid of any potential HDCP ******** and free up your HDMI for audio use only. Just a thought.


I don't have this problem. Perhaps it is because of the HD-SDI, or maybe it is the BD player difference?



Well, this doesn't really surprise me, but actually I appreciate the honesty instead of leading us on the way DVDO does. Looks like I will be ordering a pair of SpectraCal's CMS boxes as soom as they come out. Maybe they will have a twofer sale?


Bob

Nope, its before the C2-2250's , it has two outputs a DVI and HDMI that are exact in output. I also can use the 4 inputs on the MUX, all HDMI.


I think its due to my LG Bh100 and BH200, the Bh100 only outputs 24hz but the Tv-One was showing the input vale at 1080p@72, its a weird anomaly as I am sure the BH100 does not do 1080p@72 So my issue was the player most likely and I dont think any other players would cause a problem, I never tried the BH200 without the MUX, I should some day and compare it to my Gefen DVI splitter.



I think they will add it Bob, just not as urgent as fixing the current issues, i am sure others in the commercial industries have different issues that TV-One must also be working on. So an Add on feature like the Blend zone point gamma is not top priority.

I would wait for now Bob since the Gamma they proposed is for the Blend I think, or at least 90% sure, so the color management boxes you plan to order will only help the global gamma. I do not think it would help much. What really helps is getting the full field to be even in brightness at all IRE's , so the zone contrast at the blend edge is critical. I can't see getting it any other way, and tying into that is having both PJ's track greyscale and primaries and secondaries as close as possible, an exact match would be the best and we would then have no need for blend zone point gamma adjustments. the Y value(luminance) in the calibration should all match at all IRES i would think, correct?

Athanasios

I agree 100%. Even if TVOne does finally do it, it will probably be much later than the arrival of Spectracal's magic boxes and will probably not have as much adjustability. Hey, I like new toys!

Especially since my XGLC's don't have zone control like the Marquee's (they have a side to side and top to bottom balance control), I have a method in mind that I want to try with the Spectracal's:
If I put the sensor exactly in the middle of the blend zone, I can adjust for a perfect gray scale on one projector, and then get a perfect match on luminance for each color and IRE on the second projector. That way, not only would I get a perfect gray scale, but a perfect match in luminance because the absolute values of the sensor readings will be repeatable. It will probably take a day, but well worth it. what do you think?

Two questions: I have a couple of the Moome Mux's but always assumed that the HDMI output did not pass the new lossless audio codecs. Is this correct, or are you getting them?

Also, I noticed you are using a 1.3 screen - Do you see any problems with the blend as a result?


Bob

I was thinking about trying that method as well(middle of screen), but with the marquee it has corner adjustments as well so if i wanted to match luminance id have to shift the IRE boxes to each corner or use the full field and then also move the probe to each location, 3 all together for at least the blend zone then 3 more for the outer edges if i really wanted to.

But the problem with using our consumer probes is , are we getting the exact same distance and angle to each tube that will affect the readings? This is even with facing the screen since we need the meter close to get a better reading . even with an Eye One pro i cant get ti the same each time, i did an experiment to see how close i could position and re position the probe to get the same lumen level for the initial Greyscale using Calman. No matter what I did i could not get the same reading for light output off the 100% IRE by re positioning the meter to what i thought was the same placement.
Now if I had a Klien meter where i could position it further away i am sure i would do much better.
I wonder if there is a place i could rent one for a week. I should call Spectracal they might have a rental program.


I am not sure about the Mux and audio, i use the analog outs, i have no HDMI receiver/pre pro.

Regarding the 1.3 screen, I have no comparison to a unity gain so I am not sure. I just assume from what Andy and others have said including Hurley Screen company, that for a blend you need a true unity gain to help eliminate the blend zone.

Athanasios

Exactly! I have found the same thing - That's why if I put it in the middle and never move it or unplug it, I should be able to get accurate repeatable readings. Also if it is in the center (close to the screen) there should be no reflective differences between the two projectors with my 1.0 screen. Even with a screen that has some gain, they should be identical as the angles are identical.

Bob


Bob

But don't you think that since the edges are not as bright you'll get a weird effect of having the 1/4 and 3/4 section of screen too bright?

Hmmm you gave me an idea i should try. set grey scale using the normal method for the one PJ(center of that half) then adjust the contrast zone modulation per Craigs method. then do the other PJ the same way. then afterwards use your method and redo greyscale on both PJ's using the center of the whole screen one PJ at a time with edge Blend off.

Then if need be fine tune Zone contrast to taste for each PJ individualy.

Or Just call Ken Whitcomb or Craig Rounds

Athanasios

Not really that concerned about it, as I never really noticed much of a difference before I started blending. That tells me that while absolute differences might not be noticed, slight differences are easily noticed in the blend zone, so I'll make the sacrifice outside the zone.



I guess this is a way I can justify the cost of the Spectracal's!!!

Gino - I'm dying of curiosity! How is your new setup coming along?

Bob

Sorry Bob, ran out of time before my brothers visit unfortunately. He leaves sunday so will resume again then.

here are some new shots, calibration by eye, my i1 is acting up.

new Moome card gamma is nice!! it works better than the last version. I liek the upgrade.







This where the gamma did wonders, on the old moome card the bark was more or less just one or two shades, here you can see much more detail.





I hope they fixe the line issue too!!!!

come on Gino get to work on your set up!!!

Athanasios

Athanasios - Lookin' awesome!!!

I see you are using the gamma boost in your Moome boxes - It is an absolute necessity once you use it the first time and see the difference. Did you have a hard time matching the boost on both?

I am waiting for Spectracal to release more info on their cms box, perhaps even the operation manual. I assume that 0nce these are in place, I can do away with my Cresendo gamma boxes and allow the Spectracal's to do the boosting in the digital domain. Have you tried this yet with your Lumagen's cms?

Bob

Hi Bob, i don't find it necessary to beat the blend zone bug but its just an over all gain in the low level details. its only one or two click up from the the off setting, that first boost "click" is much larger than the original Gamma control on the version 1.2 Vim-Hd i had. then it seams to be much less increase along the way.

But bad news from Tv-one on the line issue they say in the RGB mode it need a total redesign . they said the YUV out does not show this as much. I did not see that unless somewhere in my system i am not converting it right or my settings are wrong or my Player outputs RGB and not YUV via HDMI? I have no clue. if i set all things to auto its all RGB if i force YUV fromthe Moome MUX and then set all the Tv-ones to YUV I get the purple and green
colots but the end of the blend zone is then much more pronounced.
so thats not it. I might need to add the lumagen in AFTER the Tv-one to see what is going on. The Moome cards YUV LED does not ever turn on, so it might be the BD player. I have to try to borrow a player or look up what the specs say.

needles to say i am very upset and hope they either fix it or refund us money or give us credit towards any new unit they may develop that eliminates this.

I still think they are looking in the wrong place, I think its not a conversion issue since i still see it in YUV out mode, and i have the MUX force YUV so its doing a conversion possibly, not sure. I first need to make sure I can have a BD player that outs YUV(YCbCr).

Athanasios

For some reason, this makes no sense. By total re-design, I'm assuming there would need to be a hardware change? I can't see that at all.




By saying "as much", are they saying there is a fundamental flaw, so they are just going to let it ride?

But, for some strange reason that is way above my pay scale, this anomaly is only visible when there is an obvious color misbalance - usually on bright all-white fields.
The rest of the time, it either doesn't exist, or it is invisible. I guess that's why it is above my pay scale!

Bob

Ok i did some testing and also took pics, here is my responce over the Tv one support desk on line and I attached the pics I will post here as well.

Hi Robert and Richard,

I Still think its something different, here's why and I attached some pics, all are YUV outputs from the Tv-one to the HDMI card in my PJ. I have the output menu set to YUV, then i have the source menu set to D-YUV but i get the same issue with auto so I only took the pics with the D-YUV.

First off the lines are still there adjusting the gama in the blend zone does alter those lines some. either increases their visabliltiy or diminishes them to some extent.
I have a blend zone of 209. I can lower it and the lines seem to be reduced but they are just squished together , which to me just masks the problem. But if I do this I can not get the gamma adjusted to where i see no bright or light area inthe zone. Still wish we had some point control of the gamma in the blend zone it help out a lot!!!! Then we could decrease the blend zone to deminish the lines and adjust the intensity of the blend zne brightness for each IRE better I would assume. But I digress....

Second, green is the only color getting the proper blend applied in YUV mode. look at the pics of the red,and white field, the green blends fine but red and blue do not as evident of the
magenta color on the white field pic with the blend on.

Looking at the red alone you see the hard edge i have been talking about.

Now in the RGB mode the colors all blend fine just the lines are present and it doesnt matter if in YUV mode they are the same, maybe a bit less defined but still visable.


Thanks again, I know your on Holiday so I hope you enjoy your time with the family.


Athanasios Hatzinerantzis

ok so here are some pics of the problem. All in YUV output.

Full White Field at 50%



Green 50%



Red 50% but the edge blending soes not work 100% here? Why????



Now at 100% IRE





Athanasios

I agree bob its Stupid. I am glad they looked into it but to say they can not do more at this time is not settling well with me.

I sent Robert a direct e-mail but he is on holiday till Dec 8th. maybe richard will read this responce sooner on the Support desk. I gave them my numbers to call me incase i am doing something wrong with regards to the YUV output, but fromthe one pic you see I got it right its just the two colors are not edge blending correctly, and even if they fix that the lines are still there.

Bob if you have a chance call me I am going back into the theater.

Athanasios(Nashou)

Ok I took some shots of a full screen image going YUV all the way to the Projectors. As you can see in full YUV in / out the red and blue are not blending correctly where as green does.





As you can see int he first pic there are lighter bars runing verticaly also out side the blend zone midway on each half, those are also an affect of the problem.

The camera does show it more than in person though. Also this full YUV has the wrong colors, so a calbration needs to be done as reds are way over saturated. Not even sure if I would be able to fix it with this issue, i don't feel like calibrating grey scale with the blend not blending just for the simple fact to see f I am really in YUV color space all the way through.

Athanasios

sO gINO WHAT YOU BEEN UP TO?

So Gino, What have you been up to?

Nashou

I'm promised a seamless blend at ISE 2010 so they have a month and a half to fix any lines on the 2450.

New formulation in the announcement. Now pricing is 'retail' and has an Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price of 999,- UKP and 1120,- Euro, and no mention of these figure being without VAT, so it would be a more atractive price. Now if I am still on his mailinglist the Dutch distributor will probably be mailing me that he is looking for above list, or now MSRP;-).

Good thing I am not in the market for these devices;-).

Hi Donald, where did you hear this? I have been waiting for a response from Robert drake on this issue for awhile. Last contact to me via the tv-one help desk on their website was end of November. I also just sent them more info that i can not get my new Oppo player to output video through the Tv-ones with out the Moome MUX in the chain. I also think the Lg Bhxx players wont work either with out the MUX, its been a long time since I tested with out it so not sure. Also witht he MUX int he chain so I can get video and I turn on HDCP in the output menu the screen flashes with video noise.

So some thing is definitely wrong with these units. Aslo sending YUV from the Oppo to the Moome Card in the PJ does not pass it properly. How can they not see this problem? do all the users only output RGB and never tried YUV source direct to the display? I still have one more test to see if the MUX is removing some info that the TV-Ones need to know it had YUV coming in, that is connect the oppo>MUX>Moome HDMI Vim-HD with no Tv-One unit to see if the VIM-HD shows the YUV inputting properly. I verified that it does infact show a YUV with the Oppo connected directly, so the VIM-HD is not the propblem.

Athanasios

Debbie send out one of her pre-ISE press releases:

BTW, a company is singular neuter, so the title should read TV One Shows Edge Blending at ISE 2010 with its C2-2450A Dedicated Edge Blender

TV One Shows Edge Blending at ISE 2010 with their C2-2450A Dedicated Edge Blender

MARGATE, Kent UK, 17th December 2009 - TV One will be demonstrating their C2-2450A Edge Blender for the first time at ISE 2010 being held in Amsterdam in February. Using two of these dedicated units TV One will show the simplicity and cost-effectiveness of producing bigger and brighter displays without the use of large, expensive projectors.

Two C2-2450A edge blending units will be simultaneously fed a single DVI source and using their internal CORIO®2 processing engines, the video will be prepared and output to two vertically stacked rear-projectors. The projected image from these will be blended seamlessly together (my emphasis) using the TV One units to create a tall and clear display from the original DVI video.

The C2-2450A has been designed specifically to facilitate the quick and easy set up of edge blend applications. It has dedicated front panel push buttons for various functions such as turning the edge blend guidelines on and off and also for switching to a full black or white output to assist with the black level adjustment and gamma correction respectively. Pixel accurate scaling is also available to support virtually any edge blending application and because of the ability to feather' any or all of the edges, multiple images can be aligned horizontally, vertically or both to create unusual displays.

It has a manufacturers suggested retail price of £999 (1120) and will be on demonstration throughout the entirety of the ISE 2010 Exhibition on the TV One stand 3B90. Visit http://www.tvone.eu for more information.

Click here here to download MSWord version of press release...


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To download an accompanying image suitable for publishing along with this news release, please use link http://www.tvone.co.uk/press_photos.shtml

yeah well thats what got us to buy it, but it is not a feathered edge, its fractional and not linear as it should be. Even Robert said this in an email to me on the issue. they said at this moment they have no plans to alter the "architecture" to fix the issue. What does this mean? your Guess is as good as mine. I still am vigilantly going to keep at them to fix the problem and also keep their promise to get the edge blend zone 256 gamma program written. We would love to have Andre do it since he knows the specifics that CRT needs, the specific needs of CRT will also help the digital side too i would assume.

Athanasios

Could you expand on your non-linear, fractional, not feathered remark?