TVONE Blending Info, General Q&A or just how to? - Page 4

Andy I think you mean the C2 series.

Andy I had the C2-2250 for a demo but could not test it working with the C2-7200 since i only had one PJ running at the time however i did test it as a stand alone scaler and it worked well as that. Could you possiblly test that unit as a pair of even with the one output of the 7200. I wanted to see how they worked with each other. That is if the comunicate with each other of if they have to be controled as two stand alone units.

Athanasios

I was curious about the lower end models like the 1250. I just looked and I guess you need two of these to do blending. The price of two is still pretty good at around $2k to $2500.

Thanks for the Great greeting :-) Glad to be here

Rob

Hi Bob,
Ok here goes...


Id love to tell you everything we are working on at the moment but that would give too much away to the competition However I can tell you that we are working on the 1080P60 issue. We are also working on a new firmware release for all the C2 units with lots of extra goodies and a few bug fixes. There will also be a few of the internal features expanded to allow for even more accurate Gamma correction. Watch this space !!


Suggestions noted, a few questions - is it down to cost or the form factor that is drawing you to the 260 card?

One big problem with this type of card being DVI would be getting a good connection for the DVI receiver chip that is capable of the full 165MHz bandwidth without any crosstalk or impedance issues - and that doesn't cost a fortune - so how about in the form factor of sasy a 1T-C2-100 series?

Best regards
Rob

Hi Athanasios,
Hmm intresting, the higher bandwidth shouldn't be a problem 11 point gamma - is possible, seperate blend zome and global gamma .. hmm hadn't thought of that - ill add it to the list of - "work out how to do this" HDCP also shouldn't be a problem providing we follow the HDCP in and HDCP rules none of the naughty HDCP stripping im affraid !!

Thanks for your comments - they have been noted.

Best regards

Rob

Hi again Bob, I posted this in the previous page:

I have a 8022 myself. Based on reports it looks like the TV-ONE has better control over the blend zone and ARs.

Are there any plans to include 1080p60 input?, or better still some arbitrary resolution such as 1920x800p72 which would be the ideal input resolution for 2.40:1 and smooth 72 Hz?

Hi there,
As MadH has corretly quoted before - because of the way the CORIO engine works we can do any resolution providing its within our maximumn bandwidth and of a resolution no greater than 2048x2048. So 1920x800p72 ~154MHz pixel clock would not be possible on current units - but watch this space

Thanks

Rob

Hi All,
Yes all the C2 units that do edge blending are the same, except on the 1K and 2K because there is only one engine then you need two units to create a blend.

Then which one do I buy i here you say.. well it all depends on the input and outputs that you need; the C2-260 card is pure analogue to RGBHV/YPbPr/CV in and RGBHV out the C2-1000 series moves to a boxed form factor with simular I/O, the C2-2000 series then goes digital and provides DVI in and out and SD-SDI to the mix, finally the C2-7K series provides DVI and HD-SDI and has two scalers in one 19" rack unit.

Hope that is clear

Regards
Rob

All I can say is watch this space ... soon... nod nod wink wink

Regards

Rob

Thanks Bob! Hdcp for us isnt a problem either. Most have hdcp compliant Moome card's for our crts so we can play blu-ray and HD-DVD movies at full 1080p.Since your units accept 1080p24, 1080p@72 hz output would the bomb! I know some here would like also i Higher input capability of 1080p60 even maybey as high as 1080p72/75 for those who want to use thier HTPC's with a blend unit. The seperate zone and global gamma would be a real big benifit if some might want to do a blend with different crts. one might do gamma better than the other. Being able to tweek each of the three zones would be aewsome.

I'm saving my cash for this new unit or upgraded unit!

Athanasios

I don't profess to understand all there is about blending but I am trying! My question is simple. In the TVONE solution you "zoom" each scaler in to create a picture that is ~60% of the original and then over lap the two with blending.

What troubles me is that in my experience "zooming" always creates artifacts and degrades the picture in some way. Wouldn't it be better to "crop" the original picture (that is only supply the desired 60% to each projector without alteration) before passing it to the projector instead of zooming? I couldn't find a way to "crop" the signal when I played with the TVONE solution and when I zoomed it I saw artifacts.

What am I missing or is my ignorance showing? Please remember I said I was no expert but just someone trying to learn!

Cost for me! A pair of C2-260's would be ideal, although someone has mentioned that the C2-260 is lacking in PQ compared to a Lumagen. In what areas it is lacking, I don't know. I thought all the C2 blending scalers used the same basic firmware, differing in features.

What is the actual formula for bandwith of a resolution? I thought the above would come to 110mhz? isnt it 1920*800*72=110.6MHz.

Athanasios

Rob,
I reviewed your 1T-C2-100 series and it appears to be a C2-260 in a box with a plug for a power supply. This platform would work perfectly especially since you have a nice set of rack ears for mounting two at a time.
I would suggest replacing the existing HD-15 analog inputs/outputs with DVI-I so that it can accept and output both analog and digital.
As long as it maintains IR control capability and has 165MHz bandwidth, I don't see how it could be improved as an entry level product for this application.
Please do it!!!!!!

Thanks,
Bob

Guys,

why make it so difficult for TVOne ?

You can have a Lumagen HDP for a list price of a little over 1000$ and it does everything we need and then some, other options cost even less or with porches out of the picture some might even use their HT receivers and of course there is the HTPC many of us use.

So a TV One device with the current excellent blending performance and a DVI input that can work with 1080p input signals and 1:1 pixel mapping option would get most of us very far.

Don't let them waste their resources on gamma, multiple inputs and other stuff that is not easy to get right in itself and we might have a very cost-effective solution with DVI input and adequate bandwidth very soon AND we will be able to have scaling/gamma control and switching as per our individual needs.

Just my moneys worth and hopefully a practicable idea for an entry level solution.

Oliver

I understand Oliver what you mean but they have the resources and I dont thing what we are asking for will increas the cost that much. Its mostly softwear based. And we all would like a single box solution. Sure the Lumagen scalers are world class but they dont blend..even though they said they might add it into the radiance that could be years from now. TV-One is comming out with something very soon. Adn we are all hoping it will have all the nessaary tool needed to do a proper CRT blend which a bit more involved than a digital blend.

Athanasios

I was wondering if a single 1T-C2-100 or C2-260 support simultaneous output of a full blended image (the two different halves of the image) over 2 composite/svideo outputs.

The reason I ask is that near the end of this year, Microvision will be producing a laser based raster style scanning portable projector. This little projector operates like a crt. The lasers are only on when they need to be, and a scanning mirror "paints" the image. Ironically, this portable digital device will be the first to match CRT's native on/off, and hypothetically should have awesome ansi contrast as well.

http://gizmodo.com/341927/video-micr...ome-dudes-back

http://www.microvision.com/pico_proj...owitworks.html

Anyway, if the overall IQ is decent, I am planning on picking up at least 4 (or more) of these units for stacking or blending. This first gen unit is only capable of 480p at 15-20 lumens, which is why stacking or blending will be needed for a home theater application.

Anyway, sorry for getting off topic, but I am wondering if the TVone units can send say two different 480p signals over composite/svideo simultaneously. If not, and I decide to blend, I will just pick up 4 of the 1T-C2-100 or C2-260 (854x480p will need 4 blend areas for ~ 1708 x 960p).

I understand what you are saying, but how many people here are going to spend a lot of money on their video system?


Not sure what you are saying about digital, but I haven't seen a good digital blend yet.

Rob,
Thanks for taking the time to participate here and for soliciting feedback. I think most people look at the overall investment in the video system and whether blending will be cost effective. I don't think people are looking at in the same light as me as I look at the cost of an 8" blend compared to a single 9" pj. I think Andy did a comparison on the raster size and light output for a blend and stack somewhere. I will have to find it somewhere but the 8" blend cost is potentially more effective for scope and 16x9. Keep up the good work and I will post suggestions as I think of them.

Two C2-260, a Lumagen HDP, a splitter and a full digital box from Moome will set you back around maybe 3.6k list and will give you very good gamma control, color calibration, all the resolutions you'll ever need and a switcher for a total of 8 input sources that can easily multiplied by adding other switchers to the Lumagen, especially for HDMI.

I would say that for a full featured blending solution this is not too bad, provided the C2-260 successor has added the features I mentioned in its next incarnation.

Of this 3.6k you can only save the money for the Lumagen as you still need the other stuff with two cards plus maybe other switchers. This still keeps the price at 2.4k which is not much less, especially not in relation to the total costs of a blending setup.

Leaving out the Lumagen or a similar device forces TV One to accomodate all the switching, gamma control, custom resolutions etc. and frankly what I have seen in the current product indicates that this might be a bit unreasonable to expect for the price you'd pay. Lumagen is in the scaler business for some time as is DVDO and they have a few years on TV one in that department and I would rather want to have TV One do what they do best IMO and look for scaling and the other things that come with signal processing for a dedicated scaler.

When you talk about most people here you have to remember that those that will go through the hassle of a blended setup are usually not those with absolutely no disposable income as they usually also would need a larger screen, larger room, a second projector etc. etc.. So I do not think that the additional 1k for the Lumagen makes my solution too expensive, not in relation to the other costs involved.

And last but not least: To implement the best possible scaling, gamma etc. options you need time and that is where we run into two problems:

1. the product gets released later
2. the time of the programmers working on this might be a bigger cost factor than you think.

So I hope I have made my point clear. I would not really have a problem with what you want from these cards if it does not delay them too much and does not increase price by more than a few $$ so let's just see what TV One comes up with. In the end they have got to decide what to do and after all they already have a wide range of products so they could also offer different solutions for different applications

Again, the decision is to be made by the people of TV One, they know better what they can and cannot do. I thinkt he only thing we all agree upon is that we want to be able the feed the units some kind of 1920 x 1080 signal and we want that be possible with a DVI or even better an HDMI connector which should still allow the card form factor to be continued without the need for a boxed solution.

Oliver

With out the global gamma control in the TV-one you would need 2 lumagens for each projector. You still need the zone gamma of the Tv-One, this is a must. But no two projectors no matter how simmilar they are will have the exact same gamma adjustment. So...you will no be able to use the lumagens gamma control at all untill each unit has the same gamma curve individualy, only then will you be able to use the single Lumagens gamma and after the gamma adjustments of the Tv_one you really wont need the lumagens thus elimintating the need for it. Splitter wont be needed if its a dual engine processor, and if they add hdpc compliance the moome hdcp stripper( if this is what you were reffering to) wont be needed either, however you will still need a hdmi or dvi card in the projector.

So I do not think these request will in the end cost more for the entire project of a blend.

Athanasios

I feel differently. TVOne's entry level 1T-C2-100 is a perfect platform to provide what is needed at minimum cost.
If it is HDCP compliant, then it cannot utilize its analog output which forces us to use some sort of "Moome" D/A converter. I know that many people want the D/A to be done as an input card in their projector(s), but I feel the D/A conversion should be done by whichever device has the best D/A converter. If the TVOne products can output 2048X2048, then it appears that their D/A converter is more capable than Moome's.

Also, the last thing I want to do is send the HDMI output from a BD player to a pre/pro to get the audio codec's, then to some scaler to pass-thru, then to the TVOne to pass-thru to the hopefully (both projectors!) HDCP compliant D/A converter in the projector(s). I have little to no faith in all those handshakes working properly.

If a DVI-I input is used on the TVone, it allows them to probably use the same chassis with the flexibility of accepting analog and digital inputs.

If they can easily provide a link between two 1T-C2-100's so that you only need one input - That's fine with me. If not, an active DVI splitter is cheap.

Thanks,
Bob

for minimum cost I agree. But for simplicity, and cost compared to the DiVentix I think this new product they have comming will be our best option, as long as it is a dual engine scaler.

Athanasios

Right now they do have a dvi input unit , the C2-2250, if they add all of that to the 1T-C2-100 it will in all essence be a C2-2250.

Athanasios

Actually the 1T-C2-100 is the wrong unit you ment the 1T-C2-250. the former is a down converter.

Athanasios

Link to their blend units

http://www.tvone.com/edgeblending.shtml

The C2-2250 is a totally different product series than the 1T-C2 series. Different chassis, different ins and outs on the back panel and a lcd display on front in addition to a higher price.
From a physical chassis change, all they would need to do is change the HD-15 connectors to DVD-I's on the 1T-C2-100 and we would have what we need.


No - I meant to say 1T-C2-100, as that is what Bob, the TVOne engineer said in his previous post on this thread.

I give you the gamma which I admit also HAS to be in the TV One, but on the other counts I disagree when I look at current prices. These are significantly higher priced solutions you are talking about, starting with HDCP compliance and the dual engine processor which of course is going to add costs to the TV One entry level solutions.

Oliver

Oliver - I agree 100% for an entry level (just do the blending!) product. In fact if TVOne made a C2-260 and swapped the breakout cable for one with DVI-I inputs and outputs and provided a 165MHz digital input capability, I'd be a happy camper!

Thanks,
Bob

Yep, something along those lines, or maybe HDMI to be able to keep the cards (less bulky connectors than DVI). I'd only like to add 1:1 pixel mapping which is always nice to have but I see we think alike on this

Oliver