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Lumagen Vision 24p fixup release to include gamut control

post #1 of 736
1/31/08 at 3:22pm
Thread Starter 
We are about to release a new update for the VisionHDP, VisionHDQ, and VisionPro HDP that corrects a judder issue reported with 24p inputs. In addition this release will add primary-color gamut calibration to these three products.

Below is some info on the gamut software that I just posted in the projector section that I thought would be of interest here:

We are doing some final testing before releasing a Vision series update to add color gamut for the VisionHDP, VisionHDQ and VisionPro HDP (did not fit in VisionDVI). This is a matrix approach, so you have control of the primary x,y,Y points in RGB color space. Grayscale and gamut are controlled independently so you don't need to iterate between them. That is, calibrating one does not screw up the other.

This is not quite as flexible as the RadianceXD's 3D palette which has control of the primaries and secondaries in RGB space. However, it should give good results for the secondaries on displays with correct color decoding. Also, it will be possible to tweak the relative position of the primary/secondary points using color/hue/offsets in the Vision. So, with iteration you can adjust secondaries on the Vision series to some degree.

As with all our software improvements this is free of charge and will be available for download from our website in the next few days.

At $1199 the VisionHDP makes a pretty compelling calibration-only box, and as a bonus you get what we believe is one of the world's best video processor/scalers for no extra charge.

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Calibration order will be:
- Program output resolution in Lumagen
- Set display's controls to neutral/off (color, hue, edge enhance, etc.)
- Set black/white levels in display
- Set 100% white's color temp in display if available
- Calibrate gamut (RGBW in Vision, RGBCMYW in Radiance)
- Calibrate grayscale
- Do other calibration steps
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post #2 of 736
2/1/08 at 4:40am
Thanks for your continued firmware upgrades. Looking forward to this one for my HDP/RS1. Do you think you will be adding another "tech tip" to your website regarding fixing colors such as the RS1?

Thanks again.

Darin
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post #3 of 736
2/1/08 at 5:01am
Lumagen HDQ is a very nice videoprocessor for my use , and now if I can correct primaries of JVC H1 , it's!!!!http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/image...lies/smile.gif
Thanks
Jean Louis
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post #4 of 736
2/1/08 at 11:07am
Thread Starter 
The new Vision series software release is posted at: http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...updates_latest

FAQ: Who should update their Vision series software?
Answer: If you have a VisionDVI there is no reason to update as the 24p in/out fix and the new Gamut control apply only to the VisionHDP, VisionHDQ, and VisionPro HDP.

If you own one of VisionHDP, VisionHDQ, or VisionPro HDP, you do not need to update unless one of the following applies to you:

1) You use 24p, 24sF, or 48p, output, with 24p input.
2) You need to calibrate Gamut
3) You need the new "nop" character for the power on/off display control.
4) You just gotta have the latest software

Please let us know if you find issues by emailing us at support@lumagen.com
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post #5 of 736
2/1/08 at 11:16am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dj7675 View Post

... Do you think you will be adding another "tech tip" to your website regarding fixing colors such as the RS1?

Thanks again.

Darin

We will work on adding a tech tip since color gamut correction is new to most everyone.
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post #6 of 736
2/1/08 at 11:22am
Does the VisionHDP have the capability to scale to custom resolutions, e.g. input 1920x1080 --> output 1440x810 window boxed inside 1920x1080?

Thanks,
I-Liang
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post #7 of 736
2/1/08 at 1:14pm
Jim, I just tried out the new gamut controls on my HDQ. I think it's goint to work, but I see one major problem and a couple of minor ones.

1. The Blue control brings up the white window and its gamut settings instead of blue.

2. The color windows are very small, making it difficult to position a meter facing the screen to avoid its shadow.

3. I am not getting correlation between the internal color windows and those provided by my Sencore VP403.

With the above corrected, this is going to be a killer feature for the Vision series.

Bob
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post #8 of 736
2/1/08 at 1:59pm
Just updated my HDP.

Previously 1080/24 In and out was unusable with my Tosh HD-XE1 and JVC HD-1. With the new update it works great

Lumagen really do deserve a medal for the level of support and firmware upgrades they have provided for the Vision series.
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post #9 of 736
2/1/08 at 2:40pm
not mine (Toshiba EX1 firm 2.8 and JVC HD1)always Judder except menu but i have tried with spacecowboys only.
Jean Louis
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post #10 of 736
2/1/08 at 2:42pm
Are you not allowed the option to use external test patterns when performing gamut adjustments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Citation4444 View Post

Jim, I just tried out the new gamut controls on my HDQ. I think it's goint to work, but I see one major problem and a couple of minor ones.

1. The Blue control brings up the white window and its gamut settings instead of blue.

2. The color windows are very small, making it difficult to position a meter facing the screen to avoid its shadow.

3. I am not getting correlation between the internal color windows and those provided by my Sencore VP403.

With the above corrected, this is going to be a killer feature for the Vision series.

Bob
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post #11 of 736
2/1/08 at 2:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Are you not allowed the option to use external test patterns when performing gamut adjustments?

I didn't see a direct way to do it, like pressing "3" as with the RadianceXD. I could very easily be wrong as I've been using my RadianceXD for the last several months and I'm rusty with the HDQ. You can so it quite easily though by making the adjustment with the internal pattern displayed, back out one level and the external pattern comes up. Check the external parameters, then go back in and make an appropriate adjustment, and back out again. It's a little cumbersome, but not too bad.

I was able to get my Red and Green primaries dialed in really good x,y,and Y. I couldn't do Blue due to the bug I pointed out above, so my cyan and magenta secondaries remained off.

But, knowing Lumagen, they will post a revised firmware very quickly.

Bob
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post #12 of 736
2/1/08 at 3:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean Louis dB View Post

not mine (Toshiba EX1 firm 2.8 and JVC HD1)always Judder except menu but i have tried with spacecowboys only.
Jean Louis

Was Space Cowboys one of Warner's 1080I bodge jobs?
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post #13 of 736
2/1/08 at 5:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Citation4444 View Post

But, knowing Lumagen, they will post a revised firmware very quickly.

You aint kidding. They have ALREADY posted a fix that offers both small/big internal patterns and the ability to use external patterns.
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post #14 of 736
2/1/08 at 7:24pm
Seems that a lot of people are discovering what I have known since I first spoke with Jim and Pat...LUMAGEN ROCKS!!!
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post #15 of 736
2/1/08 at 9:58pm
This is the kind of stuff that heavily influenced my investment in a Lumagen RadianceXD. I have seen lots of cool vp products in the past. Very few reached their potential as they were released and then there was limited support and firmware updates after that. There were others where the company just simply died off (e.g. Immersive )

I have watched how Lumagen does their updates for their older processors for some time. It is cool to see how they keep adding new excellent functionality to the old stuff. It gives me hope for a great future for the Radiance. Not to mention that the thing is still in beta but is totally awesome!!!
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post #16 of 736
2/1/08 at 10:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Citation4444 View Post

Jim, I just tried out the new gamut controls on my HDQ. I think it's goint to work, but I see one major problem and a couple of minor ones.

1. The Blue control brings up the white window and its gamut settings instead of blue.

2. The color windows are very small, making it difficult to position a meter facing the screen to avoid its shadow.

3. I am not getting correlation between the internal color windows and those provided by my Sencore VP403.

1. Please recheck with the 012608 release and let us know if the problem you are seeing is still there.

2. The 012608 adds larger windows and ability to use an external source.

3. We are not planning to try to be precise on matching the internal and external pattern levels in the Vision series. We did this in the Radiance series, but it ended up requiring significant effort, and extra gates, for something that is fairly easy to work around.

My suggestion is to use external patterns as your reference when using the Vision series calibrations, since they will match how real video sources are processed. If you do not have a test pattern generator, the internal patterns can still be used and will give you excellent results.
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post #17 of 736
2/1/08 at 10:05pm
I would assume that the new update fixes the horizontal green line when outputting 1080p24
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post #18 of 736
2/1/08 at 11:25pm
VisionHDP, VisionHDQ, and VisionPro HDP
Whats the differences between the three besides number of inputs(and price)????
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post #19 of 736
2/1/08 at 11:27pm
Not working at all for 1080p@23.98 in and out. Sad
I skipped the 012508 firmware update and installed the 012608 only.

Here is what i have.
Pioneer Pioneer Elite 150FD
Lumagen Vision HDP/DVI (latest firmware)
Pioneer Elite BDP-95FD (latest firmware)
Toshiba HD-A35 (latest firmware)
Denon AVR-3806 (latest firmware)
Denon 3930ci SD DVD (latest firmware)
BJC Series- Belden Bonded-Pair HDMI/DVI Cables , BJC Series- Belden Bonded-Pair HDMI/HDMI (3 feet long each)
Harmony 890 remote
Ideal-Lume Standard (back light)
Onkyo 6.1 speakers
Ultrasone HFI-700 headphone
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post #20 of 736
2/2/08 at 12:30am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus View Post

VisionHDP, VisionHDQ, and VisionPro HDP
Whats the differences between the three besides number of inputs(and price)????

For digital in to digital out they all have exactly the same features and image quality. For CRT progectors the VisionHDQ or VisionPro HDP have ever so slightly better analog power supplies.

So, the only significant difference is the number and types of inputs.
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post #21 of 736
2/2/08 at 12:34am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Not working at all for 1080p@23.98 in and out. Sad
I skipped the 012508 firmware update and installed the 012608 only.

Here is what i have.
Pioneer Pioneer Elite 150FD
Lumagen Vision HDP/DVI (latest firmware)
Pioneer Elite BDP-95FD (latest firmware)
Toshiba HD-A35 (latest firmware)
Denon AVR-3806 (latest firmware)
Denon 3930ci SD DVD (latest firmware)
BJC Series- Belden Bonded-Pair HDMI/DVI Cables , BJC Series- Belden Bonded-Pair HDMI/HDMI (3 feet long each)
Harmony 890 remote
Ideal-Lume Standard (back light)
Onkyo 6.1 speakers
Ultrasone HFI-700 headphone

To make sure, is this a VisionHDP or a VisionDVI. I ask since The VisionDVI does not support 24p out.

Best to email support@lumagencom. We will also need more info as to what is exactly is not working, what you observe, and any specific settings in the Lumagen and sources.

You might try a factory reset and then try out 24p in and out. If you do not do a save you can get your old configuration back with by going to standby.
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post #22 of 736
2/2/08 at 1:09am
Looks great! Thanks to Jim/Lumagen for the new firmware!

Two questions:

(1) Do the 1080p24 fixes also fix 1080p25? Or was there never a problem with 1080p25? I'm asking because I plan to use the HDP I just bought for PAL HDTV recordings (1080p25), too.

(2) Gordon has posted in another thread that the Radiance had better downscaling compared to the HDP. Why is that? Doesn't the Radiance use the same scaling method as the HDP? My plasma is 768p, so I planned to let the HDP downscale...

Thanks!
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post #23 of 736
2/2/08 at 5:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

1. Please recheck with the 012608 release and let us know if the problem you are seeing is still there.

2. The 012608 adds larger windows and ability to use an external source.

3. We are not planning to try to be precise on matching the internal and external pattern levels in the Vision series. We did this in the Radiance series, but it ended up requiring significant effort, and extra gates, for something that is fairly easy to work around.

My suggestion is to use external patterns as your reference when using the Vision series calibrations, since they will match how real video sources are processed. If you do not have a test pattern generator, the internal patterns can still be used and will give you excellent results.

I am having a super bowl party tomorrow and I've re-installed the RadianceXD for that. If I can get a little free time, I'll put the HDQ back in and try it, but it's more likely to be Monday before I can do it.

I'd bet a lot, however, that it's fixed.

Congratulation once again, for adding this functionality to the Vision series. It'll turn a lot of people towards Lumagen, as it should.

Bob
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post #24 of 736
2/2/08 at 10:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

For digital in to digital out they all have exactly the same features and image quality. For CRT progectors the VisionHDQ or VisionPro HDP have ever so slightly better analog power supplies.

So, the only significant difference is the number and types of inputs.

Thanks Jimbo!
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post #25 of 736
2/2/08 at 3:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

1. Please recheck with the 012608 release and let us know if the problem you are seeing is still there.

2. The 012608 adds larger windows and ability to use an external source.

3. We are not planning to try to be precise on matching the internal and external pattern levels in the Vision series. We did this in the Radiance series, but it ended up requiring significant effort, and extra gates, for something that is fairly easy to work around.

My suggestion is to use external patterns as your reference when using the Vision series calibrations, since they will match how real video sources are processed. If you do not have a test pattern generator, the internal patterns can still be used and will give you excellent results.

I was able to give it a quick go through today. It looks like everything works ok. I love the choice between internal small windows, large windows, and external patterns. I didn't have time to get out my instrumentation, but it looks great.

Bob
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post #26 of 736
2/2/08 at 6:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

To make sure, is this a VisionHDP or a VisionDVI. I ask since The VisionDVI does not support 24p out.

Best to email support@lumagencom. We will also need more info as to what is exactly is not working, what you observe, and any specific settings in the Lumagen and sources.

You might try a factory reset and then try out 24p in and out. If you do not do a save you can get your old configuration back with by going to standby.

I have a HDP. I did what you said but no luck. Now the picture is fuzzy and has horizontal green line when inputting and outputting 1080p24.
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post #27 of 736
2/3/08 at 12:21am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Looks great! Thanks to Jim/Lumagen for the new firmware!

Two questions:

(1) Do the 1080p24 fixes also fix 1080p25? Or was there never a problem with 1080p25? I'm asking because I plan to use the HDP I just bought for PAL HDTV recordings (1080p25), too.

(2) Gordon has posted in another thread that the Radiance had better downscaling compared to the HDP. Why is that? Doesn't the Radiance use the same scaling method as the HDP? My plasma is 768p, so I planned to let the HDP downscale...

Thanks!

1) 25p in/out would have had the same issue. I'm not sure if 25p was tested with teh new update yet. However, I believe it should behave the same as 24p in/out. Has anyone tryed this, and how did it go?

2) The upscaling is the same algorithm in the VisionHDP/HDQ/Pro as in the Radiance, except the precision has been improved in the Radiance.

The down-scaling algorithm is totally new in the Radiance and is significantly better than in the Vision series as we had more gates available to improve downscaling in the Radiance. Of course down-scaling in the HDP is still pretty good.
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post #28 of 736
2/3/08 at 12:31am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

I have a HDP. I did what you said but no luck. Now the picture is fuzzy and has horizontal green line when inputting and outputting 1080p24.

Please try an older release to make sure this is specific to the new release.

Probably time to email us at support@lumagen.com. Please include as much detail about your sytem as possible including the source components in the email.
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post #29 of 736
2/3/08 at 12:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

1) 25p in/out would have had the same issue. I'm not sure if 25p was tested with teh new update yet. However, I believe it should behave the same as 24p in/out. Has anyone tryed this, and how did it go?

Maybe a stupid question, but have you ever considered simply lowering the minimal output vertical rate from 48Hz to 24Hz? Wouldn't that allow you to drop any 24Hz/25Hz specific code (except for EDID related code)? Doing that would also allow features which are not possible today, e.g. 768p24 output. But I guess there are some technical reasons why that wasn't possible and why you had to add 24Hz specific code instead? Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

2) The upscaling is the same algorithm in the VisionHDP/HDQ/Pro as in the Radiance, except the precision has been improved in the Radiance.

The down-scaling algorithm is totally new in the Radiance and is significantly better than in the Vision series as we had more gates available to improve downscaling in the Radiance. Of course down-scaling in the HDP is still pretty good.

Thanks!
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post #30 of 736
2/3/08 at 10:49am
Jim, couple questions if you don't mind...

Im using an RS1 with a 25 foot HDMI run, Panasonic Blu ray player and a Denon 3806 that simply passes through video.

-The HDP would be ideal for the Panamorph UH380?
-It would be a fixed lense so it has to do a vertical stretch and Panamorph Mode II horizontal squeeze(this according to the Panamorph site)??? right?
-Can I customize the viewing area... for example, I like to cheat on 16X9 stuff by making it a little bigger and on 2.40 stuff to overscan it to a 2.35 image.
-Any negative effects of a DVI to HDMI adapter?
-When the Blu ray player is upgraded I will get 1080p24 correct?
Thanks!
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