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Lumagen Vision 24p fixup release to include gamut control - Page 2

post #31 of 736
2/3/08 at 9:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

Please try an older release to make sure this is specific to the new release.

Probably time to email us at support@lumagen.com. Please include as much detail about your sytem as possible including the source components in the email.

Got it!

I did what Pharkin (Lumagen Support Forum) told me to do and at least with my Toshiba HD-35 your new firmware works great! The problem was from my source not from your new firmware.

Thank You very much for your support.
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post #32 of 736
2/4/08 at 1:09am
I haven't tried the new firmware but, going a bit fanboy, I can just say WOW!

This continued level of support is something people do not realize to buy in until it either happens or it doesn't.

With Lumagen it's crystal clear that it does. And they deserve all my respect for it.

Thank you.

... there, I said it.
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post #33 of 736
2/4/08 at 5:17pm
As long time owner of a VisionHDP "Did Lumagen teach this beastly some new tricks'???

My picture quality (color and scaling quality) seems to have improved. Is this my imagination or did they apply some of what they learned with RadianceXD?

And I have not even looked at the calibration stuff yet.

Thanks Lumagen!!

Rew
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post #34 of 736
2/5/08 at 8:58pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Maybe a stupid question, but have you ever considered simply lowering the minimal output vertical rate from 48Hz to 24Hz? Wouldn't that allow you to drop any 24Hz/25Hz specific code (except for EDID related code)? Doing that would also allow features which are not possible today, e.g. 768p24 output. But I guess there are some technical reasons why that wasn't possible and why you had to add 24Hz specific code instead?

Possible, but there are certainly issues with 24p. We choose 1080p24 since it is by far the most common. There is no real reason to allow between 24/25p and 48p. We might add other 24p/25p resolutions to the Radiance, but I don't see it happening in the Vision series at this point.
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post #35 of 736
2/5/08 at 9:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus View Post

Jim, couple questions if you don't mind...

Im using an RS1 with a 25 foot HDMI run, Panasonic Blu ray player and a Denon 3806 that simply passes through video.

-The HDP would be ideal for the Panamorph UH380?
-It would be a fixed lense so it has to do a vertical stretch and Panamorph Mode II horizontal squeeze(this according to the Panamorph site)??? right?
-Can I customize the viewing area... for example, I like to cheat on 16X9 stuff by making it a little bigger and on 2.40 stuff to overscan it to a 2.35 image.
-Any negative effects of a DVI to HDMI adapter?
-When the Blu ray player is upgraded I will get 1080p24 correct?
Thanks!

1) The HDP will work well with the Panamorph lense.
2) Not sure what mode Panamorph refers to for this.
3) Yes, you can set input cropping on a per-input-aspect-ratio basis.
4) Yes. I always recommend avoiding these adaptors. Instead I recommend a cable with the appropriate terminations on each end.
5) Yes, you can use 1080p24 from bluray.
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post #36 of 736
2/5/08 at 10:57pm
Jim,
I am purchasing the HDP and was told it would be drop shipped. Will the new orders include the new firmware/updates installed? Also, will the HDP allow for significant vertical image shifting with 1080P via HDMI? (for shifting a 2.35:1 image from the RS1/RS2)
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post #37 of 736
2/6/08 at 5:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

Possible, but there are certainly issues with 24p. We choose 1080p24 since it is by far the most common. There is no real reason to allow between 24/25p and 48p. We might add other 24p/25p resolutions to the Radiance, but I don't see it happening in the Vision series at this point.

I'm sorry if I'm going on your nerves but I'm still wondering. There seem to be 2 different code paths in the Vision and Radiance firmware:

(1) For 48Hz-120Hz input we consumers can use virtually any input/output framerate and resolution combination we can think of. The Lumagen VPs are very flexible here.

(2) For 24Hz there seems to be a totally separated solution where there's only a list of supported input/output modes which might even have some new problems (like stuttering etc). We consumers have to ask for any specific extra mode to be added into the firmware. This feels like a big step backwards to me.

Now my real question is: Why do you have a whole new code path for 24Hz? Why not simply using the already existing code path with all it's great flexibility? Wouldn't it be possible to simply expand the allowed framerate range from 48-120Hz to 24-120Hz? Doing that would mean that we gained all the flexibility we are used to for 24Hz and probably all stuttering issues would be gone, too?

But maybe I'm just talking nonsense...
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post #38 of 736
2/6/08 at 8:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

1)
4) Yes. I always recommend avoiding these adaptors. Instead I recommend a cable with the appropriate terminations on each end.

I already have a good HDMI runing to the projector (too much of a pain to install a new one). Will using a DVI to HDMI adapter at the HDP DVI output be a problem?

Also, would I run it in the following order: PS3, HD-DVD, and DVR ---->Onkyo 805 ----->Lumagen HDP----->RS1

Will this commonly cause any handshake issues?
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post #39 of 736
2/7/08 at 1:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobZ View Post

I already have a good HDMI runing to the projector (too much of a pain to install a new one). Will using a DVI to HDMI adapter at the HDP DVI output be a problem?

Also, would I run it in the following order: PS3, HD-DVD, and DVR ---->Onkyo 805 ----->Lumagen HDP----->RS1

Will this commonly cause any handshake issues?

I've been using DVI-HDMI adapters on the Luma for a while of without any issue with similar kit (apart from the Onkyo).

D
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post #40 of 736
2/7/08 at 8:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzerxxx View Post

I've been using DVI-HDMI adapters on the Luma for a while of without any issue with similar kit (apart from the Onkyo).

D

Good to know. Thanks.
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post #41 of 736
2/23/08 at 2:41pm
Getting jumping/jerking and randomly occuring white lines appearing when attempting to feed the VisionHDP, with the latest code, a 480i signal (from Oppo 970HD) into a Sony Ruby. I'm just looking at the static Oppo screen.

The memory on the input side of the the Lumagen is configured to send everything it sees out of the Lumagen as 1080p. Also, this appears to be independent of whether I'm connected to the HDMI or DVI inputs on the Ruby. Bypassing the Lumagen I do not see any problem feeding 480i to the Ruby. And using another memory that sends 1080i or any other chosen output works without a problem.

I gather the symptoms would have to do with some sort of timing issue, but I'm just guessing. And I don't recall having this problem with the prior version of the code that was installed at the factory (032507).

By the way, I see not problems feeding 480i through the Lumagen to another projector I have: Sanyo Z5 (though this one is a native 720p device). I can even push output at 1080p to the Sanyo and it accepts it without any problem.

Any ideas?
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post #42 of 736
2/23/08 at 3:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

I'm sorry if I'm going on your nerves but I'm still wondering. There seem to be 2 different code paths in the Vision and Radiance firmware:

(1) For 48Hz-120Hz input we consumers can use virtually any input/output framerate and resolution combination we can think of. The Lumagen VPs are very flexible here.

(2) For 24Hz there seems to be a totally separated solution where there's only a list of supported input/output modes which might even have some new problems (like stuttering etc). We consumers have to ask for any specific extra mode to be added into the firmware. This feels like a big step backwards to me.

Now my real question is: Why do you have a whole new code path for 24Hz? Why not simply using the already existing code path with all it's great flexibility? Wouldn't it be possible to simply expand the allowed framerate range from 48-120Hz to 24-120Hz? Doing that would mean that we gained all the flexibility we are used to for 24Hz and probably all stuttering issues would be gone, too?

But maybe I'm just talking nonsense...

We simplified the output timing initially on the Radiance to save time. We will be adding mode options for per-pixel timing and output rate soon.

Also, the Radiance frame buffer timing and design is significantly different than the Vision series, so it was NOT a drop in.
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post #43 of 736
2/23/08 at 3:42pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjschaff View Post

Getting jumping/jerking and randomly occuring white lines appearing when attempting to feed the VisionHDP, with the latest code, a 480i signal (from Oppo 970HD) into a Sony Ruby. I'm just looking at the static Oppo screen.

Try 720p to Ruby. If that works, you may have a cable/adaptor issue at 1080p60.

Make sure to use MODE B timing for 1080p60 to Ruby.


You can also try a factory reset, and then set 1080p to Ruby. This would check to see if you have an issue in your setup. If you don't do a save you can get back to your settings by going to STBY and back on.
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post #44 of 736
2/23/08 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

Try 720p to Ruby. If that works, you may have a cable/adaptor issue at 1080p60.

Make sure to use MODE B timing for 1080p60 to Ruby.


You can also try a factory reset, and then set 1080p to Ruby. This would check to see if you have an issue in your setup. If you don't do a save you can get back to your settings by going to STBY and back on.

I did a factory reset. Attempting to use the Oppo at 480i output has the same result. Only setting for 720p or 1080i allows for a stable image, no matter what cable is used to connect to or from the Lumagen. Mode B is needed to ensure that the image on the Ruby is the full width of the 16x9 screen.

So, I don't think it's a cable problem (I've tested with numerous cables).

Further testing reveals that the problem also shows up with 480p output setting of the HDMI output on the Oppo (in addition to the 480i output).
Tested both DVI out of HDP -> DVI in of Ruby as well as DVI out -> HDMI input cabling to the Ruby. Same results for 480i/p. Image is not stable and the random lines appear.

Is it possible to revert to the older code to prove that it's a code problem?
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post #45 of 736
2/24/08 at 12:45pm
Jim,

"4) Yes. I always recommend avoiding these adaptors. Instead I recommend a cable with the appropriate terminations on each end."

Not practical for many of us with long HDMI cables already installed in conduit.

Is there any chance of Lumagen switching to HDMI connectors? Isn't that what most are are using these days?

If not feasible for Lumagen, can it be done DIY?

I'm concerned that I may have a problem with 1080P with my 35' HDMI cable, an older one from Monoprice not spec'd for HDMI 1.3.

It works fine now running directly from HD DVD player to JVC RS1, but I just got an Onkyo 705 HDMI receiver, adding another set of connectors, and adding the Vision HDP adds two more.

Does the HDMI have any active circuitry or a buffer to lower DVI output impedance to help it drive long cables?

Thanks
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post #46 of 736
2/24/08 at 5:21pm
Jim

Although I really appreciate the update, it still didn't fix the green horizontal line issue I have when outputting 1080p24. When using that output, i get an occasional green horizontal line that will go away if you hit the menu button. With the update, the major change is that the line sometimes goes away by itself, but in most cases, I still need to hit the menu button. I am using it with the JVC RS1. As before, this issue doesnt happen with outputting 1080i
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post #47 of 736
2/25/08 at 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

Try 720p to Ruby. If that works, you may have a cable/adaptor issue at 1080p60.

Make sure to use MODE B timing for 1080p60 to Ruby.


You can also try a factory reset, and then set 1080p to Ruby. This would check to see if you have an issue in your setup. If you don't do a save you can get back to your settings by going to STBY and back on.

Just to see if this was projector specific I tried went to the Sanyo Z5 and also found the following when sending a 480i signal from the Oppo 970HD to the Lumagen HDP (hdmi to DVI):

a) no problems outputting 480p / 600p / 720p / 768p
b) slight jumping and lines appearing with 840p
c) big time jumpting and lines with 540p / 1080i / 1080p

Not clear what's happening here. I have no other 480i sources but I don't recall this problem prior to the software update from 032507 to 012608.

I've placed a call into support to see if there are things to try to narrow down the likely cause.
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post #48 of 736
2/25/08 at 12:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjschaff View Post

Just to see if this was projector specific I tried went to the Sanyo Z5 and also found the following when sending a 480i signal from the Oppo 970HD to the Lumagen HDP (hdmi to DVI):

a) no problems outputting 480p / 600p / 720p / 768p
b) slight jumping and lines appearing with 840p
c) big time jumpting and lines with 540p / 1080i / 1080p

Not clear what's happening here. I have no other 480i sources but I don't recall this problem prior to the software update from 032507 to 012608.

I've placed a call into support to see if there are things to try to narrow down the likely cause.

Thanks for the suggestions over the phone. I tried connecting the output of the Lumagen to the DVI input of the Sony and changing the rate to 47.95 but the problem persists.

One interesting test to confirm that this is not a source issue: I setup the Tivo HD's output to fixed 480i and it also has the same issue as the Oppo, at least as far as the white random streaking lines. Since I've not sought to freeze the image, I don't see the jumping that comes with the fixed Oppo logo screen.

Next I'll try reverting back to last years software.
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post #49 of 736
2/25/08 at 1:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjschaff View Post

Thanks for the suggestions over the phone. I tried connecting the output of the Lumagen to the DVI input of the Sony and changing the rate to 47.95 but the problem persists.

One interesting test to confirm that this is not a source issue: I setup the Tivo HD's output to fixed 480i and it also has the same issue as the Oppo, at least as far as the white random streaking lines. Since I've not sought to freeze the image, I don't see the jumping that comes with the fixed Oppo logo screen.

Next I'll try reverting back to last years software.

OK. Reverted back to the 032507 code level. Verified that it was successfully loaded. Tried to use the Oppo at 480i into the Sanyo Z5 setting output at 1080i and it behaved as it had with the new code. Random white lines streaking. Same with 540p and 1080p.

But oddly enough, setting the Tivo to output 480i does not now show any obvious white streaking. I confirmed that the Lumigen is "seeing" a different signal. It indicates NTSC as the source, rather than 720p or 1080i when I allow the Tivo to adapt to the channel's broadcast.

So, now I'm a bit baffled. Please see if you can replicate what I have seen with the Oppo970 / LumagenHDP / Sony (or other) display. Something's amiss.
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post #50 of 736
2/25/08 at 2:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjschaff View Post

OK. Reverted back to the 032507 code level. Verified that it was successfully loaded. Tried to use the Oppo at 480i into the Sanyo Z5 setting output at 1080i and it behaved as it had with the new code. Random white lines streaking. Same with 540p and 1080p.

But oddly enough, setting the Tivo to output 480i does not now show any obvious white streaking. I confirmed that the Lumigen is "seeing" a different signal. It indicates NTSC as the source, rather than 720p or 1080i when I allow the Tivo to adapt to the channel's broadcast.

So, now I'm a bit baffled. Please see if you can replicate what I have seen with the Oppo970 / LumagenHDP / Sony (or other) display. Something's amiss.

And just to be sure the Oppo wasn't causing me grief I connected it directly to the Sanyo and fed this projector a 480i signal. No problem shows up.

Just as a last test I tried feeding the Lumagen a 480p signal from the Oppo and sending it out to the Sanyo 1080i. It still had some residual random white lines cropping up, but interestingly enough, not nearly as many as using 480i out of the Oppo. Baffling....
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post #51 of 736
2/27/08 at 12:43pm
We issued a RMA for the return of this LumagenHDP. We received the unit this morning and found that a component needed to be changed. We repaired the unit and will ship it back to the customer this afternoon.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman
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post #52 of 736
2/28/08 at 8:11am
Very nice!

No question, my HDP Pro was definitely a worthwhile investment!

Gamut adjustments are mostly relevant for projector owners, right? I'm a bit worried about what other artifacts (banding and the like) might be introduced after reducing one's gamut range.
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post #53 of 736
2/28/08 at 9:30am
I think they are relevant for most owners of lcd/plasma displays as well. Sony and Pioneer, Panasonic and Fujitsu all have incorrect primaries....Pioneer (pre7g) and Sony's are wildely oversaturated on green.
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post #54 of 736
2/28/08 at 10:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by oferlaor View Post

Gamut adjustments are mostly relevant for projector owners, right? I'm a bit worried about what other artifacts (banding and the like) might be introduced after reducing one's gamut range.

The undesirable consequences are fairly profound, not in terms of banding, but with regard to overall color performance. Simply adjusting the xy coordinates of the primaries is not helpful if it undermines other aspects of color performance.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=993724
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post #55 of 736
2/28/08 at 10:48am
Thanks for the update works great just had a question.

1080 24p from Toshiba A35 and Denon 2500BR to a Sony Pearl. When I switch form 1080 60p to 1080 24p it shifts the image over to the right about 6-8"? I can correct it with POS setting but is that the right way? Input size BT TP do not help.

Nate
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post #56 of 736
2/28/08 at 12:17pm
I wish we had some more user reports.
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post #57 of 736
2/29/08 at 3:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyFreeman View Post

We issued a RMA for the return of this LumagenHDP. We received the unit this morning and found that a component needed to be changed. We repaired the unit and will ship it back to the customer this afternoon.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman

All is well once again. As always, great customer support from Randy and his team. Got my 480i from the Oppo nicely upscaled to the Ruby at 1080p and correctly sized to boot!
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post #58 of 736
3/2/08 at 11:20am
I had a laptop hard drive fail just as I attempted to do this upgrade, so I haven't had a chance to fire up the upgrade and the C5 to look at the new gammut tool until tonight. Wow, those secondaries do get way whacked out. It is very impressive how the primaries line up. I also tried some minor primary correction, but the secondaries still strayed considerably. Jim, you guys still get an A for effort. If you can figure out how to fit control of the secondaries, you're gonna sell a lot more HDPs.

Very nice bug fix for 24p. But to Lumagen's credit, 1080p24 from the source looks no better than 1080i60 reconstructed to 24p by the HDP.
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post #59 of 736
3/6/08 at 4:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

I had a laptop hard drive fail just as I attempted to do this upgrade, so I haven't had a chance to fire up the upgrade and the C5 to look at the new gammut tool until tonight. Wow, those secondaries do get way whacked out. It is very impressive how the primaries line up. I also tried some minor primary correction, but the secondaries still strayed considerably. Jim, you guys still get an A for effort. If you can figure out how to fit control of the secondaries, you're gonna sell a lot more HDPs.

Very nice bug fix for 24p. But to Lumagen's credit, 1080p24 from the source looks no better than 1080i60 reconstructed to 24p by the HDP.

I found the same. As you say A for effort but the secondaries really need fixing otherwise it's of no real benefit if you looking for "accurate" colours.

D
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post #60 of 736
3/15/08 at 9:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyFreeman View Post

We issued a RMA for the return of this LumagenHDP. We received the unit this morning and found that a component needed to be changed. We repaired the unit and will ship it back to the customer this afternoon.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman

Hi Randy
I've been on about this streaking white line problem for quite some time over on the Lumagen user forum,I'm stuck on 112206 and even then some HD DVD's exhibit this problem.Do I have a failing component in my processor and if so,can I please get it fixed.
Cheer's Steve
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