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Can't play 2channel audio sources from a PS3 over all speakers in 7.1 system

post #1 of 23
2/1/08 at 12:51pm
Thread Starter 
I have a PS3 hooked to a Sony STRDA5200ES receiver via HDMI, hooked to a 7.1 Focal Sibs. Every time I play cd's, mp3's or 2-channel audio sources on PS3 system, sound only plays thru the front two speakers and the sub. I really like the 2-channel to 7.1 audio conversion programs on the receiver (PLXII or something), but it won't let me change any modes if it's coming from the PS3. My receiver will read (PCM 48K almost like an error).

I'm guessing the PS3 converts all sound to a multi channel out, but just limits it two the front two speakers if it's a 2-channel source. I can't find a way to turn that off. I'm very familiar with my receiver, and I know I can change the speaker modes on other sources easily (dvd,dvr,pc,wii, etc).

The PS3 does a nice job of pulling mp3s from my media servers and playback etc, I'm just not happy with only two speakers.

Thanks
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post #2 of 23
2/7/08 at 5:35am
I just hooked up a new Yamaha RX-V661 receiver to my PS3 last night (via HDMI) and observed the same issue.

The receiver reports the signal as MPCM, which I think stands for multi-channel PCM. The OSD reports more detailed information, describing the signal as "3/4/.1" -- 3 front, 4 rear, plus LFE -- 7.1.

I figure the left and right channels are actually carrying a surround encoded signal, but the receiver does not think it should turn on its matrix decoder, since it is already receiving a discrete 7.1 signal.

It seems to me that the issue is with the PS3, it should be turning on a matrix decoder and routing the signals appropriately out the 7.1 channels.

I can't find any settings in the PS3 to change this behavior.

Anyone have any thoughts on this one?
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post #3 of 23
2/7/08 at 7:30am
Sounds normal. Many receivers can't apply Dolby surround processing to MPCM.
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post #4 of 23
2/7/08 at 7:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Sounds normal. Many receivers can't apply Dolby surround processing to MPCM.

It's normal that you can't apply surround processing to MPCM - it wouldn't make much sense, at least not in a 5.1 setup. What's not normal is that ps3's convert 2 channel pcm to MPCM that only utilizes the FL and FR channels, precluding the use of PLII. It's a weird quirk of the ps3.
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post #5 of 23
2/7/08 at 7:52am
Huh? How is that different? I must be missing something. PLII IS surround processing as I use the term.

Receivers can always apply various Dolby Surround processing to the source whether or not it makes sense (such as apply the original Dolby Pro Logic processor to a CD track). With the advent of Dolby Pro Logic II (and now IIx) we can apply Dolby Processing whether or not the two channel mix has matrixed channels in it and get something reasonable sounding.

However, receivers often have a limitation. They can't apply these modes regardless of the content of the two channels if those channels are receiver via HDMI/MPCM. Some receivers can. And that has nothing to do with any PS3 setting.

If I misunderstood the question, please correct me.
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post #6 of 23
2/7/08 at 8:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Huh? How is that different? I must be missing something. PLII IS surround processing as I use the term.

Receivers can always apply various Dolby Surround processing to the source whether or not it makes sense (such as apply the original Dolby Pro Logic processor to a CD track). With the advent of Dolby Pro Logic II (and now IIx) we can apply Dolby Processing whether or not the two channel mix has matrixed channels in it and get something reasonable sounding.

However, receivers often have a limitation. They can't apply these modes regardless of the content of the two channels if those channels are receiver via HDMI/MPCM. Some receivers can. And that has nothing to do with any PS3 setting.

If I misunderstood the question, please correct me.

If you play a CD on a CD or DVD player, your receiver will get a 2.0 PCM signal. If you have 5.1 you can apply PLII. If you have 7.1 you can apply PLIIx.

If you play a CD on a ps3, you'll get either 5.1 or or 7.1 MPCM. The ps3 takes a 2 channel PCM signal and embeds it in a multichannel pcm signal without adding anything to it. With the exception of the the FL and FR, all the channels are empty.

This is similar to what UPN does a lot, and CW used to do. Shows like Smallville would be broadcast in 5.1, but only contained FL and FR. That unnecessarily precludes you from applying PLII to what is actually a stereo signal. CW seems to have changed and is now correctly sending the signal as 2.0. It would be nice if the ps3 did the same thing.
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post #7 of 23
2/7/08 at 8:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kplex View Post

If you play a CD on a CD or DVD player, your receiver will get a 2.0 PCM signal. If you have 5.1 you can apply PLII. If you have 7.1 you can apply PLIIx.

If you play a CD on a ps3, you'll get either 5.1 or or 7.1 MPCM. The ps3 takes a 2 channel PCM signal and embeds it in a multichannel pcm signal without adding anything to it. With the exception of the the FL and FR, all the channels are empty.

This is similar to what UPN does a lot, and CW used to do. Shows like Smallville would be broadcast in 5.1, but only contained FL and FR. That unnecessarily precludes you from applying PLII to what is actually a stereo signal. CW seems to have changed and is now correctly sending the signal as 2.0. It would be nice if the ps3 did the same thing.

That's a helpful explanation with regards to what the PS3 is doing. I was wondering why it will dislpay a MCPCM 5.1 source for CDs and yet I still only get 2.1 sound without any format options with the Onkyo 605.

I would hope with SACDs that the other 3 channels will not be empty. I am looking forward to playing my first sample upon delivery. (hopefully any day now.)
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post #8 of 23
2/7/08 at 8:35am
That's interesting. The PS3 sends a 5.1 signal with only the two main channels being "populated" ? That's a bit odd. Technically, Dolby Pro Logic IIx can be applied to a 5.1 source. But it sounds like you can't even turn on the DPLIIx mode.
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post #9 of 23
2/7/08 at 1:23pm
I agree that the PS3 behavior is odd, perhaps one might even describe it as wrong.

Since the PS3 allows you to select which audio formats will be sent out via HDMI, I experimented with turning off the multi-channel PCM formats, leaving only the 2-channel formats enabled.

After making this change, my Yamaha RX-V661 turned on its matrix decoder and sound appeared on all my speakers.

I could leave the settings this way, but I am wondering if I might be taking a performance penalty on any material that includes a multi-channel PCM audio track, i.e., will the Sony PS3 downmix the multi-channels into just 2 channels? That would be a bummer.
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post #10 of 23
2/7/08 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

That's interesting. The PS3 sends a 5.1 signal with only the two main channels being "populated" ? That's a bit odd. Technically, Dolby Pro Logic IIx can be applied to a 5.1 source. But it sounds like you can't even turn on the DPLIIx mode.

You could enable PLIIx on a 7.1 system, but it wouldn't do anything because for 2 channel sources, there's no sound in the surround channels to work with.
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post #11 of 23
2/7/08 at 1:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gburlingame View Post

I agree that the PS3 behavior is odd, perhaps one might even describe it as wrong.

Since the PS3 allows you to select which audio formats will be sent out via HDMI, I experimented with turning off the multi-channel PCM formats, leaving only the 2-channel formats enabled.

After making this change, my Yamaha RX-V661 turned on its matrix decoder and sound appeared on all my speakers.

I could leave the settings this way, but I am wondering if I might be taking a performance penalty on any material that includes a multi-channel PCM audio track, i.e., will the Sony PS3 downmix the multi-channels into just 2 channels? That would be a bummer.

If you disable the multichannel modes, stereo is the best you'll ever get out of your ps3.
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post #12 of 23
2/11/08 at 5:48am
Update:

I'm thinking of contacting Sony about this issue. Something I did not mention in my original post, is that I discovered this behavior when my son was playing a legacy Sony PS2 game "Sonic Riders".

While playing native PS3 games with multi-channel turned ON (example: Warhawk), I find that all channels are populated with signal -- that is good news.

If I turn OFF multi-channel, the game Warhawk reverts to a Dolby Digital stream, which is OK, but I'm thinking that the multi-channel PCM stream is probably of higher quality and would be my preference.

Has anyone had any luck contacting Sony about technical problems like this?

Does anyone know someone at Sony who I could contact?

Thanks!
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post #13 of 23
2/20/08 at 8:15am
I made the same analysis (i.e. PS3 bug - decoding 2 ch into 5.1 with only 2 active channels).

A support service request has been issued on this - I hope they have a new firmware without this issue.

I played a DVD of an old movie which had 2 channels, and there was no problem - the receiver did play it on all speakers, using multi stereo. This maybe shows that the problem is with the decoder of MP3/Audio CD/DivX but not when playing audio from DVDs.

Also - related more to the receiver: Why does the receiver "lock" and does not allow overriding the surround settings?

Yuval
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post #14 of 23
2/23/08 at 4:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuvalnv View Post

I made the same analysis (i.e. PS3 bug - decoding 2 ch into 5.1 with only 2 active channels).

A support service request has been issued on this - I hope they have a new firmware without this issue.

I played a DVD of an old movie which had 2 channels, and there was no problem - the receiver did play it on all speakers, using multi stereo. This maybe shows that the problem is with the decoder of MP3/Audio CD/DivX but not when playing audio from DVDs.

Also - related more to the receiver: Why does the receiver "lock" and does not allow overriding the surround settings?

Yuval

Is this support service request something that can be tracked to watch its status within Sony?

I would not expect the receiver to allow you to override this particular situation, but I suppose it would be helpful.

The receiver would have to discard the signal on the silent channels, keeping only the Left and Right channels. It would also need to turn on the matrix decoder to generate surround sound from the Left and Right encoded channels.

I think it might be tricky for the receiver to automatically determine when to go into this different mode, perhaps it would mean a level threshold detector on the other channels to detect when they are not carrying any signal.
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post #15 of 23
2/27/08 at 7:47am
I called Sony PS3 support - after waiting for 15 minutes on the line, I explained the problem in details but the representative could not help me with it.
She did not seem to understand in depth about how PS3 outputs audio (i.e. non technical at all). All she did is read me stuff from the manual.
I asked her to at least write down my problem and pass it on to PS3 developers, but she did not do that.
Finally she told me that since a receiver is involved I should talk to Sony receiver support (...of course it makes no sense as the receiver gets the wrong signal..)
I did call Sony receiver support, and this time the representative understood the problem but said that the receiver is OK and the problem is in PS3 domain, but these are different departments in Sony...
The right hand and left hand do not know about each other (=no central support/brain)

I am extremely disappointed with Sony support and their approach in general. They put people with low technical skills in the front end, and the whole procedure is slow & painful.

So I guess there is nothing to be done.
I hope someone from Sony is reading these posts.

Yuval
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post #16 of 23
2/27/08 at 8:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuvalnv View Post

I called Sony PS3 support - after waiting for 15 minutes on the line, I explained the problem in details but the representative could not help me with it.
She did not seem to understand in depth about how PS3 outputs audio (i.e. non technical at all). All she did is read me stuff from the manual.
I asked her to at least write down my problem and pass it on to PS3 developers, but she did not do that.
Finally she told me that since a receiver is involved I should talk to Sony receiver support (...of course it makes no sense as the receiver gets the wrong signal..)
I did call Sony receiver support, and this time the representative understood the problem but said that the receiver is OK and the problem is in PS3 domain, but these are different departments in Sony...
The right hand and left hand do not know about each other (=no central support/brain)

I am extremely disappointed with Sony support and their approach in general. They put people with low technical skills in the front end, and the whole procedure is slow & painful.

So I guess there is nothing to be done.
I hope someone from Sony is reading these posts.

Yuval

I dont know how to fix your issue, but speaking to two individuals from tech support certainly isnt helping your case.

You should always ask to speak with someone else if they are unable to answer your question. You need to keep moving up the chain until you reach the supervisors supervisor. If you cant get answers you just have to try a little harder and keep asking until you have you answer from an engineer or someone more qualified to handle such a question.
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post #17 of 23
3/11/08 at 10:41am
I have this same issue with ps3 and rxv861. It also will do this for dvd's. But in changing the output to bitstream, it now can see that it is dolby digital to the receiver

BD / DVD Audio Output Format (HDMI)
hxxp://manuals.playstation.net/document/en/ps3/current/settings/bdsettings.html#1470
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post #18 of 23
4/1/08 at 12:56am
I have the exact same problem using HDMI to a Denon 4308.

I couldn't care less about playing stereo music from more than two speakers, but when playing PS2-games with Prologic II-support on the PS3 this bug means Prologic can't be used because the reciever thinks its getting a 7.1-signal.

And of course, regardless if it matters to me or not.... I don't want bugs in my PS3.
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post #19 of 23
4/1/08 at 1:36am
untill they make the audio output a littler smarter, youre stuck with it. although the ps3 is only doing what you tell it to - output multi channel pcm over hdmi. the only way right now is to swap to 2 channel pcm. either by deselecting all the other options in the sound menu for hdmi setup (on the ps3), or swap to optical output instead.


not ideal, but it works.
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post #20 of 23
4/30/08 at 8:47am
Thread Starter 
I decided to use HDMI for video and optical for sound. You can assign the outputs on the ps3 preferences. It works perfect now. I don't see why it is an issue with HDMI, or why I was getting locked out of options, but now with optical I can change to any sound mode.
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post #21 of 23
4/30/08 at 8:55am
Because the HDMI can pass multi-channel PCM and the Optical can only pass two channel PCM.....

Thjat is why it happens on HDMI and not Optical.
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post #22 of 23
4/30/08 at 9:16am
The PS3 sucks with cds and HDMI audio. It is simple thing they had to work out to get wrong. If you go in and kill the the right audio formats in the PS3 manual hdmi setup it will start to play 2 channel PCM that the 663 can use.

The 663 can't matrix the PS3 5.1 CD input becaues the bitrate is very high(whatever the PS3 max is). The 663 can only matrix PCM inputs under 96khz (with all the empty channels the matrix would be crappy any way). With the empty .1 (LEF) is means you don't get bass on your subwoofer (again bitrate is too high for the 663 to crossover).

It you switch back to optical you don't get the high def blu-ray audio. Again the PS3 is a crappy hdmi cd player.

Have Fun!
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post #23 of 23
5/18/08 at 5:21pm
will Sony ever issue a new firmware to fix this problem on the PS3?
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