Want advice on what sub to purchase? Please read this before posting... - Page 5

John,

Is it possible to snap a picture or two of your space so we have a better idea of what we're dealing with? Thanks.

Hi,

Is it absolutely imperative that your subwoofer go in that tiny shelf space? It's going to really limit the quality of subwoofer you can get. Is there another place in the room the sub can go? One of the rear corners? To the side of one of the shelf units? It would really help if there is some placement flexibility.

Hi John,

Sorry, I have a couple more questions.

First, is your $400 budget firm? If so that's fine. In my humble opinion most $400 subs will be a bit lacking in your 2,000-2,500 cubic foot room, but considering the sub you're coming from it might not be an issue.

Second, how much space is between your doorway and the big entertainment center (in the black box)?




A recommendation I have that fits your $400 budget is the Hsu STF-2. Here's a link to the product:
http://hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html

Hsu subs are known to sound very good with music, which seems to be your main priority. The STF-2 is no king of output, but it should provide some punch while sounding very musical. It can also do a decent job for HT, though it won't be shaking your foundation like a larger sub can.

The STF-2 seems like a good choice for you because it's $349 plus $33 shipping, putting it below your $400 limit. It is also relatively slender, at only 14" wide. Check and see if you can fit a 14" wide subwoofer between your entertainment center and your doorway. If you can, I think it's a great choice.

Like I said, I'd want something a bit more powerful in a room of your size, and if you can afford to step up to something a little larger and more expensive, I'll make more recommendations. However, if your budget is firm at $400 and you have the space (which it looks like you might), the STF-2 looks like a great subwoofer for your needs.

Keep me posted.

Stephen

HDTimeShifter,

It seems as though you care most about music and SQ, not output or extension. Your room is small enough that it should be easy to achieve respectable output levels. It's possible you could come in well under your budget and be reasonably satisfied with something like the Hsu STF-2.

http://hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html

Hsu subs have a good reputation for SQ and it should have enough output for your small room at your modest listening levels. The STF-2 should have solid extension down to a bit below 25hz.

Of the subs you listed, I'd go for either the Martin Logan Dynamo or Velodyne DEQ12R. The Velodyne's EQ system might make it a better candidate, and I think it's a great option. Velodyne's DEQ line doesn't dig very deep (a review of the DEQ15R shows that it rolls off hard below 30hz; I'd imagine the DEQ12R fares even a bit worse), but it should have enough output for your moderate listening habits and the EQ might prove to be a very valuable feature to help it blend well with your B&W's for music.

I've owned the Infinity PS212 and while it had great output, its extension was only so-so and some of your other options should be better for your music-oriented listening. I don't know much about the Klipsch RW-10d but I'd imagine the Velodyne, ML, and Hsu STF-2 will be better music subs.

If you can push your budget a little farther the SVS SB12-Plus and Epik Vanquish are excellent sealed subs that will pack a good punch and sound very good for music, but they'll cost closer to $700-750 with shipping.

Good luck.

HD,

The STF-2 should be fine as long as it's a few inches from the wall. I'd guess about 4" should be plenty of space for the port to breathe. BTW, the cables that plug into the STF-2's amplifier pretty much necessitate 3-4" of space between the back of the sub and the wall anyway so I wouldn't worry about it.

Sounds good, HD. I'm sure the Dynamo will do just fine in your small room at moderate listening levels. Let me know what you think once you get it all set up and calibrated with the rest of your system.

Hi Marc,

Glad you decided to get on board here on AVS. It's always good to have perspective from a HT dealer. I hope you continue to participate here and find it an enjoyable experience.

I think your assessment of the subs in question is pretty accurate overall, though I haven't heard them all extensively (and a couple, not at all). The Velodyne should have decent output above 40hz and its EQ can prove beneficial in taming room issues. I owned the Infinity PS212 and I suppose I was fortunate because I had no amp issues. It sounded decent and had good output above 35hz. However, I've read about the amp issues and would be hesitant to buy one now. I haven't heard the other subs much, but your sentiments echo others I have read.

I do have to take issue with the following statement, though:


Perhaps this is the case with subs sold in brick and mortar stores from companies such as Velodyne and Klipsch, but today's internet direct subwoofer industry has a number of <$600 subwoofers that can dig to a real 25hz and below. Here are just a few:

SVS PB10-NSD ($449) - solid output 20hz (slightly deeper in-room)
SVS PB12-NSD ($569) - strong output to below 20hz (upper teens in-room)
Hsu VTF-1 ($449) - good output to 25hz (closer to 20hz in-room)
Hsu VTF-2 MK3 ($549) - digs to below 20hz (upper teens in-room)
AV123 MFW-15 ($499 on sale) - strong output to ~18hz
eD A2-300 ($350) - output to 20hz
eD A3-300 ($550) - strong output to 20hz
Outlaw LFM-1 Plus ($549) - strong output to slightly below 20hz

With the exception of the Hsu VTF-1, all of these subs should be capable of substantial output at 20hz (at least 90dB 2M GP). They also sound quite good (I've heard some of them and previously owned two PB10-NSD's myself), are backed by excellent service, and usually have a ~45 day money back guarantee (though the customer may be out shipping costs).

If you haven't yet had the chance to hear any of these ID offerings, I'd encourage you to get a demo from someone who owns one. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised .

Again, welcome to the forum.

Hence the parentheses. Note that I said that all of the subs that I listed except the VTF-1 have strong output to at least 20hz. To clarify, this is BEFORE room gain. To be fair, lots of "specs" are useless anyway. Velodyne "specs" the DEQ12R to be +/- 3dB from 25hz-120hz, but doesn't specify the output level. Marc Johnson just admitted that it "plays cleanly to about 35hz," nearly half an octave short of it's what the "specs" indicate it should. So perhaps it can be +/- 3dB down to 25hz, but at a 70dB output level, which is barely even perceptible at that deep a frequency. Def Tech claims ridiculous extension numbers in the low teens for its small Super Cube line. These subs might reproduce those frequencies, but not in a way that would make you even notice them (unless you're staring at the driver flapping around).

On the other hand, SVS and some other ID companies provide an unsmoothed, quasi-anechoic frequency response graph of their subs at a more realistic output level (usually between 85-95dB) at the bottom of each product page. These charts show the subs to be quite flat down to at least 20hz - well within the +/- 3dB spec. If you don't believe the manufacturer, third party tests by Ilkka at Home Theater Shack and the guys at AVTalk confirm the true performance of subwoofers in unbiased, ground plane tests. You'd be surprised how many expensive subwoofers are outperformed by cheaper subs.

I'm not trying to argue that ID companies make the only subs worth look at. Your point of not being able to hear the subs first is a valid one, and of course it's a risk purchasing something you haven't seen/heard before in person. However, when you look at the overwhelming number of people on these forums who have moved from expensive "big name" subwoofers to much cheaper ID subs and found the ID subs to be better...well, there has to be some validity to the ID companies.

For less than $400 the eD A2-300 is probably your best bet.