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"The Envelope" Home Theatre 2014: Mike R(mtbdudex) DIY 11.3 Audio, 2.35 Scope 130in screen - Page 5

post #121 of 132
Thread Starter 
Thx Tom - too bad on the bad weather for yours, hopefully you can get that last one in for your neighborhood picnic.

This being the 4th year in a row the whole neighborhood family/friends loves the "event" feeling of it, we had 35-40 people, could fit easily 50.

The music playing LOUD gives the pre-concert feeling, and it's always fun to say "ITS MOVIE TIME" for the start and all the kids come running from playing to their viewing spots.

Darn moths though get attracted to the popcorn bulb and sorta got mixed in a few batches of popcorn.....extra protein never hurt anyone rolleyes.gif
(rule is don't tell them and they don't know)
post #122 of 132
Quote:
Darn moths though get attracted to the popcorn bulb and sorta got mixed in a few batches of popcorn.....extra protein never hurt anyone rolleyes.gif
(rule is don't tell them and they don't know)

THAT is too funny! Could be worse...could be a mosquito problem.
post #123 of 132
Thread Starter 
Not "bumping" my thread, rather I was looking for my center speaker shelf posts in here and found them in a separate thread, so I re-post just the key ones in this thread
(shame on me for making separate threads back then)
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1094642/center-speaker-shelf-acoustic-edge-effects#post_15267879
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Picts of center shelf completed.

Installed, the match to the Paradigm "Rosenut" color is acceptable.
Per Dennis, the front edge of the speakers will have about 3/4" overhang to the shelf to minimize boundary edge effects.
(I read the Loudspeaker cookbook handbook a few months back where extensive studies of boundary edge effects is presented - so that was in my memory, and Dennis confirmed that)

I also made the shelf about 3/4" shorter on each side for same reason.
I left about 1 1/2" for anit-slip device on the back to keep the speaker from slipping backwards.

The shelf ends and there is about 8" gap to the front wall for whatever "breathing" / acoustics I can give those rear ports.
I made a sandwich top with leftover 3/4 OSB and 3/4 plywood via glue, and attached Oak trim with lots of clamps Friday night.

Put dark laminate on top Saturday, and stained/installed Sunday.
.

Installed:
That getto angle device will be replaced with a custom "wedgie", stained appropriate color, I also wish my PartsExpress 14/4 speaker casing was black not white - will need a speaker sock for them. The 24" shelf bracket is actually white and from another project prior painted black, I just re-painted the portion that will show from above again since it had a few scratches/chips on it from prior abuse.


"Wedgies" to hold up the speaker @ 12.5 degrees, which shoots it just over the 1st row heads.
.

[edit] blu-ray racks info added 11/29/2013

I added 3 sliding drawers to my AV rack just for that purpose.
These have the glides on the bottom, they make them with glides on the sides also.
You can see them in the picture, I simply lined each bottom with black thin foamboard from craft store.
They are about 22 inch wide x 22" deep, you can get different sizes.
Full extending and very strong/robust, perfect for blu-day and other storage in the AV rack.


here is some more detail on the sliding blu-ray / storage in my AV rack

This is a 20 inch x 20 inch sliding tray, it fully extends:
photo%25201.jpg

and as can be seen stores 100+ blu-rays per spot, here is 102
photo%25202.jpg


[edit] summary of project costs
As reference to my HT and it's budget/real costs

Front Proj: Sony VPL-VW60; say $4k for PJ for 2014/2015 PJ (my swag at when you might be done)
+ a-lens UH380 on slide, ; if you are going this route $2k for a b-stock, or more for new
with Darbee Darblet video processor; $300, suggest wait till after your HT initially done
A/V: Denon AVR-4520CI ; approx $2.2k
Emotiva XPA-3 amp; $600 - I have 11.3 set-up so needed this as no AVR currently has 11 amps, mine has 9
Screen: 130" DIY 2.35:1 curved screen; $600-ish, if you buy $1k or so
11.3 speakers: Paradigm Monitor 9's for front, CC-390 center, 4 ADP-390 for rear and back surround, Monitor bookshelf for wides/fronts.; I have about $4k in these, maybe slightly more.
>>Consider DIY speakers via the DIY sound group as alternative

subwoofer: 4 x 15" IB array on Sub1, plus 18" and 15" Stereo Integrity cubes on Sub2; My IB sub $1.3k, the 2 added cube subs $800, total $2.1k
>>Again DIY soundgroup has sub cubes, or better yet now Parts Express is carrying them with drivers bundled to save $$
speaker wire: 500 feet of 14ga/4c, all runs equal length.; $250? (copper prices change too fast)
Seats: 2 rows thru Roman $2.5k
DIY Acoustics: $1.3k

My gear + acoustics + seats total comes to $23k-ish, then add in carpet + pad ($2k top tier), drywall/soundproofing/etc ($2k), AV rack ($500), remotes ($500), $500 12ga/14ga wiring, lighting $500 (fixtures & what not, also add $750 if grafik eye), misc stuff $1k (riser, a-lens slide, etc) .
So yea $30k you should budget for seems ballpark, w/o labor of others.

For reference, that $30k gave me this, and it took 4 years initially, then 3 more for "upgrades" and applying lessons learned:
front view .............. ......................................................Rear view:
HT%252011.3%2520cover%2520off%2520Pano-b.jpg . _MG_5464.jpg

Layout:
HT%2520Plan%25202x4%2520Seats-Riser-acoustics%2520Nov-2013_subs.jpg
Edited by mtbdudex - 3/13/14 at 1:15am
post #124 of 132
Thread Starter 
Reserve 1:
Organized Acoustics post/links/stuff to go here

For me acoustics is a hobby, no I'm not formally trained in it, yet I've read quite a few books to self teach myself, and applied what I learned to my HT and some family members, work friends, and neighbors HT and listening space.
I'm also a MSME, so math/calculations/graphs are everyday at work, and realize most here get lost very quickly on the technical side.

Links:
Why just using 1" thick porous absorber treatment is "wrong" http://www.avsforum.com/t/1369498/early-reflection-panel-thickness
For a good discussion on 1/4 wavelength and such, read here, why do we insist max particle velocity is always at 1/4wavelength from boundary?, this is directly related to porous absorbers in acoustic treatment application.

http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/Demos/waves-intro/waves-intro.html
Quote:
Definition of a Wave
Webster's dictionary defines a wave as "a disturbance or variation that transfers energy progressively from point to point in a medium and that may take the form of an elastic deformation or of a variation of pressure, electric or magnetic intensity, electric potential, or temperature."
The most important part of this definition is that a wave is a disturbance or variation which travels through a medium. The medium through which the wave travels may experience some local oscillations as the wave passes, but the particles in the medium to not travel with the wave. The disturbance may take any of a number of shapes, from a finite width pulse to an infinitely long sine wave.

here
wavepulse.gif
stringpulse.gif

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/bass-traps-acoustic-panels-foam-etc/663796-why-do-we-insist-max-particle-velocity-always-1-4wavelength-boundary.html

http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/akustikk-og-rom/54859-svana-s-acoustics-philosophy.html

I've re-posted this more than a few times in other threads when people start asking about acoustics......
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1312693/diy-construction-methods-of-hang-able-acoustic-panels-moveable-corner-traps-not-fixed-frames#post_19947420
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Discussion related to corner bass traps; gas flow resistivity, why cover them to reflect mid-high's, etc
[*] http://www.gearslutz.com/board/bass-traps-acoustic-panels-foam-etc/177600-could-someone-help-out-interpreting-materials-gas-flow-properties.html
[*] http://www.gearslutz.com/board/bass-traps-acoustic-panels-foam-etc/583307-nasa-lf-absorption-gas-flow-resistivity.html
[*] http://www.gearslutz.com/board/9610921-post12.html
[*] http://www.avsforum.com/t/1378864/does-gik-acoustic-panel-auralex-foam-suiting-my-room#post_21327290
[*] http://www.avsforum.com/t/1460653/on-covering-bass-traps
[*] http://www.avsforum.com/t/255432/acoustical-treatments-master-thread/8490#post_21513507
[*] http://www.avsforum.com/t/1354504/corner-bass-traps


Side note:
I have this general suggestion for those wanting to learn about acoustics:
A) read this Acoustics/Treatment Reference Guide , via gearslutz, its a easy read in layman terms, starts you off with basics and good foundation with practical discussion. Studio acoustics and Home Theater acoustics.
From that, simple/straight forward advice via Jens Eklund:
Quote:
1. Learn how to make measurements: REW - Room EQ Wizard Home Page
Don’t do anything without measurements.
2. Define your MLP (Master listening position). Confirm with measurements.
3. Identify and treat your modal and SBIR - Speaker Boundary Interference Response related issues and educate yourself about different bass-absorbing techniques.
Other info: SBIR by Bryan Pape
4. Treat areas that otherwise creates early reflections.
5. If the room is big enough, add diffusers
Always base your decisions regarding different treatment, on measurements. Avoid thin porous only absorbers (including wall to wall –carpet, drapes etc.) unless a measurement indicates the need for it.
B) Knowing that for “best” audio/sound in a listening room, these parameters are tackled in prioritized order:
1. Speaker location, 2. Listener position, 3. Acoustic treatments, 4. Electronic correction.
Understand the small room acoustic model you will follow.
Looking at this link, everyone can see visually the various small room models, it's 7 pages from the book "Acoustics and Psychoacoustics Applied"

http://eetimes.com/design/audio-desi...n?pageNumber=0
C) If you have desire for more knowledge:
-read one of many books out there, a great 1st book is "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest, a perfect follow-up book is "Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms" by Floyd Toole.
-shameless plug for Ethan Winers book also, "The Audio Expert".

.. ..

-study Ethan Winers site, http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html
-Become familiar with the different small room acoustic models for home listening spaces
-This is also a 101 read on Room Acoustics, http://www.crutchfield.com/learn/learningcenter/home/speakers_roomacoustics.html
-SAE Home Acoustics info site has many definitions and explanations http://www.sae.edu/reference_material/audio/pages/fullindex.htm
-There are many other sites on the web, like
........One of the first ones, StudioTips small room acoustics forum http://forum.studiotips.com/index.php,
........Acoustical measurements defined Rives audio http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue12/rives2.htm,
........RPG Acoustics Library papers http://www.rpginc.com/news/library.htm, etc.
-Be careful of info overload all at once

D) Measurement info/threads:
-online downloadable file with the Sound System Engineering chapter 6 on measurements http://www.focalpress.com/uploadedFiles/Books/Book_Media/Audio/9780240808307.pdf
-Get the hardware side of REW down quickly, this thread by member omegaslast dummy's guide on setting up REW and his blog http://polaraudio.blogspot.com/2012/01/calibration.html easy 101 read with pictures to walk you thru the mechanical of set-up and taking measurements
-Highly recommend Nyal Mellor's site, http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/Aco...surements.html , and a very detailed/helpful white paper http://blog.acousticfrontiers.com/st...ist.%20Rms.pdf
-Room Measurement & Treatment by "fotto" (Floyd)


- Envelope Time Curve - ETC - Impulse gearslutz thread
-Using energy time curve for acoustic analysis: by "mtbdudex" (Mike R)
-http://www.avsforum.com/t/1421599/etc-isd-gap-question ETC - ISD gap by
-Basic acoustic measurement primer v2.1 (via gearslutz "DanDan")
-http://www.realtraps.com/art_measuring.htm


-http://www.avsforum.com/t/1316623/diy-custom-printed-movie-poster-acoustic-panels-cheap/60#post_20147783 DIY Custom-Printed Movie Poster Acoustic Panels
-first reflection software: http://www.avsforum.com/t/822273/free-software-to-help-determine-your-first-reflection-points/240#post_22619555
-a while back I downloaded this Measurement/calibration sequence from Dennis Erskine.

RoomMeasurementSet-up.zip 5k .zip file

Edited by mtbdudex - 3/11/14 at 4:33pm
post #125 of 132
Thread Starter 
Reserve 2:
Organized Home Theatre Planning Paper and Planning Drawing post/links/stuff to go here.

List of Reference Level, High Sensitivity & SPL Speakers- this thread has good explain to speakers and the wattage needed to drive them at spl
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1387083/list-of-reference-level-high-sensitivity-spl-speakers
Edited by mtbdudex - 4/5/14 at 1:26am
post #126 of 132
Thread Starter 
Sync my HT build thread to my New Years "promise" I made in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1508987/what-are-your-new-years-a-v-resolutions/60#post_24154446
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

To avoid purchasing anything I get a targeted ad on AV Science forum from a retailer or manufacturer. To avoid responding to any we want to know which could result in me getting targeted ads.
+1

My 2014 bucket list, not in prioritized order - and since it's in "print" it can be checked as gets done.
(btw, does this replace the Logan list??)

Basement 11.3 HT
  1. Install dual exterior sealed french doors in opening, currently curtains
    game%2520room%2520wide%2520view%25201.JPG . game%2520room%2520wide%2520view%25204.JPG
  2. Putting art covers over my side wall acoustic treatments
    _MG_1157.jpg . _MG_1158.jpg
  3. Value priced 4 zone auto lighting
  4. Wood trim AV rack and PJ
  5. DIY Rear wall diffusers
  6. AV rack temp controlled fan
  7. Make Correlation chart for sound quality: Subjective vs Objective
    >>I did start this in a thread, then life got busy
    http://www.avsforum.com/t/255432/acoustical-treatments-master-thread/9810#post_23964289
  8. Make Planning Paper and Planning Drawing for HT building - generic template, de-mistify the "sauce" for others
    >>My take on HT planning & design
  9. dog wireless fence to protect screen
    [ update Jan-26-2014 this installed and dogs "trained" now biggrin.gifhttp://www.avsforum.com/t/1501211/using-invisible-fence-to-avoid-dog-jumping-onto-ht-screen-speaker-wire-interference#post_23985834 ]

Family Room 5.1
  1. Make DIY R/C/L speakers for my family room 5.1 set-up, to replace my 4ohm Atlantic Technology System 350's that cause my Denon 4308CI to go into protect mode when I get around -12db of ref volume
  2. I added DIY 12" ported sub, now I got to fix that ground loop hum frown.gif
    [update Jan-26-2014 temp solved with Behringer MicroHD HD400 2-Channel Hum Destroyer]
  3. replace failing harmony 890 remote, iRule or other, need RF

Edited by mtbdudex - 2/22/14 at 6:34am
post #127 of 132
I see you noted a ground loop issue in family room.....did you successfully eliminate the 60 hz hum? I have to battle one soon myself!
post #128 of 132
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

I see you noted a ground loop issue in family room.....did you successfully eliminate the 60 hz hum? I have to battle one soon myself!

I bought one of these Behringer HD400 2-Channel Hum Destroyer years ago and ended up solving my ground loop in the basement HT, so it was on my shelf.
This weekend I put it into the family room sub chain like this : AVR sub out > Behringer HD400 > iNuke3000.
Without measuring while it did not 100% eliminate the hum, it definitely brought it down well below hearing threshold.
http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-HD400-2-Channel-Hum-Destroyer/dp/B000KUD2G4


Come spring, I'll tackle the "proper" way of ground loop hum, till then this band-aid works.
post #129 of 132
Quote:
I bought one of these Behringer HD400 2-Channel Hum Destroyer years ago and ended up solving my ground loop in the basement HT, so it was on my shelf.
This weekend I put it into the family room sub chain like this : AVR sub out > Behringer HD400 > iNuke3000.

Did you buy any chance run a sweep through it? I'd be interested to know if it affects teh frequency response.
post #130 of 132
Thread Starter 
John - no time for REW, maybe later this Spring when I dig into root cause/solution, for now this works and subjectively my 4 cu ft ported sub still sounds decent there smile.gif

Have others did a simple A vs B of Behringer HD400 in the chain and out?
not sure, that's a good general Q for the guys in the DIY speaker section if you want to post it there....
post #131 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

John - no time for REW, maybe later this Spring when I dig into root cause/solution, for now this works and subjectively my 4 cu ft ported sub still sounds decent there smile.gif

Have others did a simple A vs B of Behringer HD400 in the chain and out?
not sure, that's a good general Q for the guys in the DIY speaker section if you want to post it there....

Sure... not saying to remove what works. May as well hit the big problems and then worry about refinements later.

Just to be clear: I'm not even talking about running REW with speakers and mics and everything. I'm talking about running REW such that the sweep signal goes from the interface to this, then back to the interface. Not unlike what I did on the sub-out of my old receiver. It's a super-easy way to determine the transfer function of any piece of signal-level gear. REW does have uses beyond acoustics, you know... LOL

I should make a 2014 theater bucket list to keep myself motivated. Actually, I'm 3 $60 drivers away from having everything I need for my planned subwoofer upgrade. And that enables a lot of things;for example I have been delaying my riser build because of planning to partially integrate the subs into it. So I guess I won't have any excuses soon.
post #132 of 132
Thread Starter 
John - yes you need to make your 2014 bucket list, go public with it and heck if we accomplish even 50% that's pretty decent and more than Avg Joe.

Item 9 for basement HT is done!
Watching Animal Planet tonight with kids/dogs, they had bears on screen, and the dogs edged closer to the screen, I said nothing just watching, the collar warning "beep" went off and they immediately backed away.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1501211/using-invisible-fence-to-avoid-dog-jumping-onto-ht-screen-speaker-wire-interference#post_24271198
Mark-up of area I put the not twisted single strand 20ga wire at. This is the signal emission zone.
pano%2520markup.jpg
>>For those with dogs and front stage they might consider doing this as pre-wire in construction phase, would make it easier for them.
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