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Replace my Onkyo 905 for $2500 or less with what?

post #1 of 175
2/6/08 at 1:35pm
Thread Starter 
I'm one of the unhappy Onkyo 905 users and my patience has about run out with the lousy customer support. One reason I purchased the 905 was the full feature set and good price. Between the audio delays and HDMI issues, Onkyo has offered to refund me the full purchase price.

So now my problem is deciding what, if anything, to replace it with. I looked at the Denon 4803CI, and found it lacking in some areas. THX certification, HDMI-CEC, upgraded transformers, etc. I've also remember reading the Onkyo provide better sound quality as well.

I'm looking to spend $2500 or less (street price). I basically want a very similar feature set to the 905, but not from Onkyo.

Even the top-end Pioneer Elites and Yahama's list price is below Onkyo/Denon and I don't think fully measure up.

As PO'd as I am with Onkyo, I don't see a clear cut replacement that has roughly equal sonic, feature, and power qualities, except for the Denon 5308 which is not in my price range.

Video processing is not important to me, as I let my Pioneer 1150HD Kuro do all scaling.

My system is 5.1 Veritas energy speakers, SVS PB12-plus sub-woofer, cozy dedicated HT room about 10'x12'x8. 95% theater usage, 5% music.
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post #2 of 175
2/6/08 at 1:50pm
The Sherwood Newcastle 972 to be released in May.
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post #3 of 175
2/6/08 at 1:54pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by facesnorth View Post

The Sherwood Newcastle 972 to be released in May.

Hmm..interesting and certainly within budget. Wattage seems to be a bit on the low side, and I don't think Onkyo will extend their refund generosity until May. But thanks for the input...certainly another data point to consider in my evaluation.
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post #4 of 175
2/6/08 at 2:03pm
THX certification - no guarantee that a receiver that is not THX certified won't perform as well or better than a THX certified receiver.

What makes you think the comparable Denon receiver won't sound as good as your Onkyo?
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post #5 of 175
2/6/08 at 2:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deneb View Post

THX certification - no guarantee that a receiver that is not THX certified won't perform as well or better than a THX certified receiver.

What makes you think the comparable Denon receiver won't sound as good as your Onkyo?

Well from reading several posts over the last few months, people that did A/B comparison between Denon and Onkyo said, in general, the Onkyo sounds better. Now I had an old Denon 5803, which my 905 replaced. I didn't do a A/B comparison, so I can't comment on differences in my HT.

One missing feature in the 4308 that I would miss a lot is HDMI-CEC. Due to my HT configuration, aiming my Harmony One at the receiver is a PITA. So I have configured HDMI-CEC so that my TV sends volume controls to the receiver. Thus I can just point my remote at the TV and it controls the receiver. Not a huge issue I will admit, but from my seated position is sure makes life a lot easier.
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post #6 of 175
2/6/08 at 2:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yngdiego View Post

I'm one of the unhappy Onkyo 905 users and my patience has about run out with the lousy customer support. One reason I purchased the 905 was the full feature set and good price. Between the audio delays and HDMI issues, Onkyo has offered to refund me the full purchase price.

So now my problem is deciding what, if anything, to replace it with. I looked at the Denon 4803CI, and found it lacking in some areas. THX certification, HDMI-CEC, upgraded transformers, etc. I've also remember reading the Onkyo provide better sound quality as well.

I'm looking to spend $2500 or less (street price). I basically want a very similar feature set to the 905, but not from Onkyo.

Even the top-end Pioneer Elites and Yahama's list price is below Onkyo/Denon and I don't think fully measure up.

As PO'd as I am with Onkyo, I don't see a clear cut replacement that has roughly equal sonic, feature, and power qualities, except for the Denon 5308 which is not in my price range.

Video processing is not important to me, as I let my Pioneer 1150HD Kuro do all scaling.

My system is 5.1 Veritas energy speakers, SVS PB12-plus sub-woofer, cozy dedicated HT room about 10'x12'x8. 95% theater usage, 5% music.

When you're getting in the thousands for AVR, you might as well go with the separates route. Get a good preamp (Integra DTC 9.8?). Then you might want to consider those pro amps (QSC, Crown).

Yes, I know that Integra is basically Onkyo. But I the integra 9.8 is in a whole different class.
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post #7 of 175
2/6/08 at 2:53pm
Personally I would stay away from Sherwood Newcastle as I really do not like the way the rate there receivers at 1KHz instead of being rated from 20Hz - 20KHz. Now as far as Denon not being THX certified, I would not read to much into that. They use to be THX certified if I remember correctly. And many high end companies are not THX certified so when they slap a THX badge on a Kenwood. THX is not the driving force that makes me choose a receiver or pre/pro.

I would give the Denon AVR-3808ci a serious listen as it can also be updated via ethernet and the Audyssey can be upgraded to Audyssey Pro as well. Something I do not think even the Onkyo 905 can do! I have been researching receivers for over 2 months now. I will not have the money saved up for at least 4 - 5 months but when I am ready I should be able to walk into a retailer and buy on the spot.

I am currently looking at the following:
Denon AVR-3808ci (auditioned and was very impressed with how good it sounded!)
Onkyo TX-SR 875 (Have not been able to listen to it yet)
Onkyo TX-SR 905 (Have not been able to listen to it yet)
Integra DTR-7.8 (auditioned and was very impressed with how good it sounded!)
Integra DTR-8.8 (Have not been able to listen to it yet)
Pioneer VSX-94TXH ?? (Have not been able to listen to it yet)

I am seriously questioning why I should by an Onkyo product with heat issues, audio popping whith DTS tracks starting or when chapters are skipped, audio delays of 3-4 seconds and other failure problems with Onkyo. I have to say that Onkyo's "This is what fanatical sounds like" what a joke! I would like to know if the Onkyo receivers have 3-4 second delays before the sound kicks in using HDMI how the heck did they get THX certified? I guess even THX does not see a problem of audio kicking in after the movie has already started.

The MS plays for sure certification is a joke as MS ended up dropping it support for that certification. Hell MS can not even make there Media Player bug free and stable.

I really like the idea of having a receiver with a toroidal transformer and a Reon HQV scaler that is supposed to be superior to the Faroudja chip. How ever I am not going to buy something if there is a chance that I am going to return it and have to go to another retailer to buy something else.
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post #8 of 175
2/6/08 at 2:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yngdiego View Post

Well from reading several posts over the last few months, people that did A/B comparison between Denon and Onkyo said, in general, the Onkyo sounds better. Now I had an old Denon 5803, which my 905 replaced. I didn't do a A/B comparison, so I can't comment on differences in my HT.

One missing feature in the 4308 that I would miss a lot is HDMI-CEC. Due to my HT configuration, aiming my Harmony One at the receiver is a PITA. So I have configured HDMI-CEC so that my TV sends volume controls to the receiver. Thus I can just point my remote at the TV and it controls the receiver. Not a huge issue I will admit, but from my seated position is sure makes life a lot easier.


I've AB'd receivers and didn't hear much difference between any of them. I don't know that I'd take others word that brand X sounds better than brand Y.

IMO your other criteria should be the driving force in your selection as opposed to what others say about sound quality. Only you can judge that for yourself. I woudn't worry about THX certification either, lots of equipment out there that meets or exceeds THX specs, but the manufacturer just didn't feel like shelling out $$$ for the little THX badge.
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post #9 of 175
2/6/08 at 3:18pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks..so right now I'm strongly leaning towards the Denon 4308CI, unless there's a better option in my price range.
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post #10 of 175
2/6/08 at 3:24pm
Also check out the Marantz SR-8002...it even has THX certification if that is important to you.

And I'll go with the post above...anyone claiming large SQ differences between receivers in this price range is full of hooey IMO.
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post #11 of 175
2/6/08 at 3:31pm
If you can deal with just PCM 7.1, you should try the NAD T785. I heard it is awesome.
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post #12 of 175
2/6/08 at 3:57pm
One nice thing about THX is their prorietary sound modes. I love listening to THX cinema and ultra 2 modes on the 905. I'd certainly miss them.
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post #13 of 175
2/6/08 at 3:59pm
I just can't imagine the Denon's being worth the money. If I was going t sacrafice features for sound quality then I would be looking in the league of Nad as mentioned. Perhaps Arcom. Or even that Marantz model. You could also get into seperates at that price range.
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post #14 of 175
2/6/08 at 4:00pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by facesnorth View Post

One nice thing about THX is their prorietary sound modes. I love listening to THX cinema and ultra 2 modes on the 905. I'd certainly miss them.

Yup! That's exactly my primary concern with going to the 4308CI...no THX processing modes. I always have THX cinema engaged for movies.

Does the Marantz SR-8002 have the THX processing modes? Does anyone know a comparison of the SR-8002 and the 4308CI? Specs look very similar to me, with the 8002 having the THX select certification.
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post #15 of 175
2/6/08 at 4:29pm
Have you listened to the Denon AVR-3808ci or even the 4308ci? I have been hearing nothing but good things about the Denon 3808ci and alot of bad/good about the Onkyo TX-SR905. And the Denon 3808ci retails for about $1,599 and the Onkyo TX-SR905 retails for $2,099. They both use Audyssey room correction, HDMI 1.3a, Burr Brown D/A converters. The two big things that the 905 has that the 3808 does not is a Toroidal transformer and a Reon processor. But the 3808ci sound great and also does not suffer from audio lag when using HDMI. When I say audio lag I mean it does not lag for 3-4 seconds locking onto a codex. But then again if you do not want to go with a receiver you might consider a Integra DTC 9.8 pre/pro, I think it is going to sell for around $1,600 ?
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post #16 of 175
2/6/08 at 4:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cambrian View Post

Yes, I know that Integra is basically Onkyo. But I the integra 9.8 is in a whole different class.

Not really. And the 9.8 has the same DD lockup delay that yngdiego finds such a problem in the 905. Not a good choice. I vote for the Denon 4308, or maybe the Marantz 8002.

OK, just checked the manual, and the 8002 does have THX modes.
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post #17 of 175
2/6/08 at 4:51pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyzziks View Post

Not really. And the 9.8 has the same DD lockup delay that yngdiego finds such a problem in the 905. Not a good choice. I vote for the Denon.

Yes, it seems like the only good pre/pro that does all the new HD audio CODECS and HDMI goodies is the Integra line. And as Fyzziks states, it suffers from many of the same problems my 905 does.

So in light of the current options, I can get a 4308CI for the nearly same price my 905 was, so its an even swap. Maybe in a few years when pre/pros get up to speed with all the latest digital goodies, I will look into separates.

Steven from Electronics expo was exceedingly aggressive on the price, so at this point I don't see a better option.
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post #18 of 175
2/6/08 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyzziks View Post

Not really. And the 9.8 has the same DD lockup delay that yngdiego finds such a problem in the 905. Not a good choice. I vote for the Denon 4308, or maybe the Marantz 8002?

What DD lockup delay issue...please explain, so I now what to look for? I have not seen it. Not saying it's not there, but...
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post #19 of 175
2/6/08 at 4:57pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by B&W700guy View Post

What DD lockup delay issue...please explain, so I now what to look for? I have not seen it. Not saying it's not there, but...

When the 905 switches between audio formats, there is a very noticeable delay where you get no sound from the receiver. Happens frequently when I FF/RW through commercials on my HR20 where the audio formats change. It also happens during HD/BD playback at the beginning when trailers or FBI warnings appear and the audio formats change.

Onkyo attributes the delay to "high quality" DSPs and they internally mute while the DSPs sync up to the new audio format, thus no external audio during this period. Delays can be in the 2-3 second range, on average.
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post #20 of 175
2/6/08 at 4:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yngdiego View Post

Yes, it seems like the only good pre/pro that does all the new HD audio CODECS and HDMI goodies is the Integra line. And as Fyzziks states, it suffers from many of the same problems my 905 does.

So in light of the current options, I can get a 4308CI for the nearly same price my 905 was, so its an even swap. Maybe in a few years when pre/pros get up to speed with all the latest digital goodies, I will look into separates.

Steven from Electronics expo was exceedingly aggressive on the price, so at this point I don't see a better option.

Please tell me the other things to look for with my 885 that I have a problem with?
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post #21 of 175
2/6/08 at 4:59pm
yngdiego,

I am going with the 3808. I was clinging to hope that Onkyo would correct the issues with its receivers but that is not going to happen. I will be using the 3808 as a pre-pro with a Parasound A52 amp. The downside for me with the 3808 when I had it in my system was 2 channel SQ.

I have since bought a Proceed Pre 2 channel pre-amp with HT bypass and the 2 channel SQ is excellent. I also have a PS PCA-2 coming tomorrow to compare to the Proceed. With the Proceed or the PS in my system gives me excellent 2 Channel SQ and the 3808 will give me all I need for HT.

Bill
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post #22 of 175
2/6/08 at 5:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by facesnorth View Post

I just can't imagine the Denon's being worth the money. If I was going t sacrafice features for sound quality then I would be looking in the league of Nad as mentioned. Perhaps Arcom. Or even that Marantz model. You could also get into seperates at that price range.

Totally agree. Denon offers features and inferior sound. The Yamaha 3800 will equal any receiver in sound quality.
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post #23 of 175
2/6/08 at 5:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yngdiego View Post

Yes, it seems like the only good pre/pro that does all the new HD audio CODECS and HDMI goodies is the Integra line. And as Fyzziks states, it suffers from many of the same problems my 905 does.

Um, all I said was that it had the DD lockup delay. That's problem (singular)
Actually, I don't find it a problem myself, but yngdiego does, and for him another AVR would be a better choice.
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post #24 of 175
2/6/08 at 5:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yngdiego View Post

When the 905 switches between audio formats, there is a very noticeable delay where you get no sound from the receiver. Happens frequently when I FF/RW through commercials on my HR20 where the audio formats change. It also happens during HD/BD playback at the beginning when trailers or FBI warnings appear and the audio formats change.

Onkyo attributes the delay to "high quality" DSPs and they internally mute while the DSPs sync up to the new audio format, thus no external audio during this period. Delays can be in the 2-3 second range, on average.

I had the same problem with my H/K AVR7300 and my 885. But, when going direct to my TV I get it. I have swapped out 3 of the HR20's for mainly HDMI issues. Now I just received the HR21. I would never use another HR20. On DVD movies, have not seen it.
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post #25 of 175
2/6/08 at 5:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HTMAN21 View Post

Totally agree. Denon offers features and inferior sound. The Yamaha 3800 will equal any receiver in sound quality.

Inferior how? Did you compare the Denon and the Yamaha in your HT? I know everyone has different thoughts and expectations doing these comparisons I am just curious. What do you like with the 3800 over the Denon (which model?)

Bill
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post #26 of 175
2/6/08 at 5:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyzziks View Post

Um, all I said was that it had the DD lockup delay. That's problem (singular)
Actually, I don't find it a problem myself, but yngdiego does, and for him another AVR would be a better choice.

I am glad I purchased my Onkyo 885 before I read these threads.
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post #27 of 175
2/6/08 at 5:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by B&W700guy View Post

I had the same problem with my H/K AVR7300 and my 885. But, when going direct to my TV I get it. I have swapped out 3 of the HR20's for mainly HDMI issues. Now I just received the HR21. I would never use another HR20. On DVD movies, have not seen it.

Does the HR21 work any better than the HR20?

What about this where the HR20 has been isolated as a problem source?:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=110381
If the HR21 works better then why not use it instead of an HR20?

Finally, has anyone tried presetting the Audio mode so switching does not take place by not using the "last valid" audio mode (Menu 5 - Listening Mode Presets)?
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post #28 of 175
2/6/08 at 5:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Inferior how? Did you compare the Denon and the Yamaha in your HT? I know everyone has different thoughts and expectations doing these comparisons I am just curious. What do you like with the 3800 over the Denon (which model?)

Bill

Read the Sound and Vision reviews. The only product with distinctly inferior sound performance is the Pioneer 94TXH.
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/rec...-receiver.html

Also the only one of the big four tested that did not get an award:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/fea...rds-audio.html
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post #29 of 175
2/6/08 at 5:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JVi View Post

Does the HR21 work any better than the HR20?

What about this where the HR20 has been isolated as a problem source?:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=110381
If the HR21 works better then why not use it instead of an HR20?

Finally, has anyone tried presetting the Audio mode so switching does not take place by not using the "last valid" audio mode (Menu 5 - Listening Mode Presets)?

"Does the HR21 work any better than the HR20?"
Did you read my post, I just got my HR21. If I gets less then (3) failures in a little over a year, Then yes it is better.

As I stated...I have no problems with DD or DTS.

Why did you use my post as your example?
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post #30 of 175
2/6/08 at 5:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by B&W700guy View Post

"Does the HR21 work any better than the HR20?"

Why did you use my post as your example?

I used it because you trashed 3 HR20's and replaced them with an HR21 and I wanted to know if ithe HR21 works any better than the HR20's.
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