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Harman Kardon EzSet/EQ question

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
Hi all,
I have a quick question I was hoping you could help me with. I have just got a 147 and was trying to run EZSet/EQ last night. I have Polk R50 fronts with a CSR center and polk R150 rears.

However I do not have a SW yet. EZ q fails everytime (and rightly so) when it looks for the SW. How do I bypass this to allow it to configure the rest?
post #2 of 26
Set your Fronts to Large

Sub = None

Then run EZSet/EQ on Manual.
post #3 of 26
I have all kind of other problems with EZSet/EQ.

Is there anyway you can see what the EQ part is actually doin? I like the high frequency adjustments, but hates what it does to bass (I have an AVR445)

If i use the recommended microphone position, it random calculates the distances from 3 to 7 meters??

However I mange to get the correct distance when positioning the microphone just e few inches above my head, but each measurement I do, I hear different sound afterwards, therefore I would really want to see the EQ adjustments that are made. It is so frustrating to have a 'black box' with settings.

Any ideas?
post #4 of 26
Unfortunately HK does not give you the graphical picture like some other brands or the ability to tweak in-receiver.

With EZSet/EQ, the trick is all in the micing. I assume you have read the relevant posts on the 635 thread and others pertaining to HK models. If not, here is what I do with great success.

I use only the center of the rear wall couch seating for micing as my room is only 10.5' across and 17' long. AV has to be on the short wall due to layout.

I set my tripod height so that Mic is slightly above my head when seated (although I have found there is great room for play in this regard.) Any real problems seems to stem from the Mic extension angle. At least in my room, the Micing is very sensitive to angularity and will give wildly varying results with just a small adjustment. So I have settled on 45* or slightly higher. Anything lower than that at that distance gives setup results far from accurate. The adjustment window between erratic and realistic seems to be very small.

Volume is always at 28 and I am firing remote out of room as much as possible and all noise making units are shut down like HVAC of course. I run Auto first and see the results without going to Near Field. If I don't like it I re-run on Manual after speaker setting selections. When I am satisfied with the Far Field setup results, I then continue to run the Near Field. When doing this I usually only have to raise the tripod post to the right height leaving leg extensions as they were on the couch. I aim the Mic at the spot on my tower speakers that is between the Tweet and the Mid and through experimentation have settled on 2 feet or so of distance Mic tip-to-speaker aim point. The angle is usually below the 45* of the Far Field and is closer to 25*-30* or so but never direct for me.

I can't tell you how many times I've run the setup through the years. Just like you, while not having trouble with Highs, I did have difficulty getting the Bass right in my room with my layout. Auto always set my towers to Large naturally but I always set them as Small with my sub. Problem was my Bass would then become more localized and resonant, especially from the side and would fall off in the front. This happened no matter what X-over point I chose. Only when I kept my towers as Large did the Sub and the speakers begin to blend well. A few tweaks in positioning (with very little space) and things got a lot better.

Of course every room is different as is other equipment involved. IMO no one should have to experiment this much to run a setup routine and get decent results from Highs to Lows. But having done so, I am finally happy considering my limited layout.

Good Luck.
post #5 of 26
Hi,

many thanks for this. I have found a topic with all kind of 635 EZset tips and tricks.

However, I have a 445 .. And i dont know if all is the same. For example when I measure with -28 dB, my neighbours get crazy, that is sooo loud.

And I am still confused about the placing of the mic for the near field. Mr Code writes something about a 60 degrees angle with the spherical in the air. My english isnt that good, so I have no clue if the small tip must be aimed 60 degrees up or down.

I will do some measurements tonight.
post #6 of 26
I have a H/K 247 and after about a year of experimenting off and on with using EzSet/EQ I have determined that its best to simply not use it.

I did a hardware reset and never used the auto EzSET/EQ. I did everything manually using Test Tones, SPL Meter and a tape measure.

Sounds much better...and the numbers I ended up with are no where near what EzSet/EQ would have come up with.
post #7 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadRay View Post

Hi,

many thanks for this. I have found a topic with all kind of 635 EZset tips and tricks.

However, I have a 445 .. And i dont know if all is the same. For example when I measure with -28 dB, my neighbours get crazy, that is sooo loud.

And I am still confused about the placing of the mic for the near field. Mr Code writes something about a 60 degrees angle with the spherical in the air. My english isnt that good, so I have no clue if the small tip must be aimed 60 degrees up or down.

I will do some measurements tonight.

Small tip up. Sorry you can't use the full volume. If in apartment or condo I can see how that would be loud depending on construction. I still think the volume is less important than the angle of the Mic with extension. 45*-60* up is far better than anything else I have ever tried. For Near Field I have tried various distances and angles but straight on has never worked out for voices. They seem less live and have less character than when using an angle to measure. They also are lacking compared to non-EQ vocal SQ. At least in my room, some angularity for the Near Field measurement is better than none.

I believe EZSet/EQ II has minor calibration tweaks but still system is basically the same. I will look at the 445 manual and see if I can make recommendations.
post #8 of 26
I have tried the settings after a reset, entering the speaker sizes and delays without doing a EZSet run.

then there is still the question to put EZSet on or off. When Off, the sound is very flat and no dynamic in it but a very tight bass. When it is on the high is good, but the bass is boombox like. And that is horrible.

I want to do one more perfect measurement, but I am confused about the mic position and angle for the near field measure. Must the tip be pointed up or down?
post #9 of 26
The manual seems to indicate they want the tip as you sight along the top to point at the speaker. I always use an up angle meaning the tip is below the aiming point on the speaker but is always around 2 feet back.

Madray, sounds to me like you need to adjust the Bass tone control. I know many do not like to use the Tone controls but in this case it may be helpful.

For me, without EQ soundstage is low in room and not wide. Bass is very low to floor and too concussive. Only good thing is voices generally sound better and have more character. With EQ, soundstage is elevated including Bass and Bass tone is proper with much less boom or resonance. Bass 'hit' is tighter. Mids are more detailed and Highs are more delicate. Music floats in the air as opposed to being trapped between speakers. Sound character does not change when approaching or leaving the listening room from several directions/openings available. My towers have always imaged beautifully and require no sweet spot but with EQ engaged the entire AV wall seems to radiate sound like one giant speaker.

Some love EQ. Some hate it or just can't get it to work. Some despise sound alteration of any kind but IMO unless the room is well treated you haven't a prayer of hearing how good your sound can be without proper room EQ.
post #10 of 26
Well thats getting confusing

I read others just angle it up and the height of the tip always between tweet and mid. I think I will just have to test it. So the position will be lower then the spot where it is aiming to. Is that the same way how you measure it?
post #11 of 26
Yes. My Speaker is 37" tall. Mic tip is probably around 25"-27" high (it varies but makes little difference) but aim point is at 32" or so between Mid and top tweeter.
post #12 of 26
Damn,

cant wait till my daughter will go to bed so I can try some more

I will come back on this
post #13 of 26
Good Luck with the Setup. And by the way...you're English is just fine.
post #14 of 26
Well thanks again you are really responsive.. knowing that, I have another question.

If I reset my amp, all settings are back to default, after that I enter the speaker sizes as I like them and distances as I measured them.

Then there already is the possibility to set EZSet ON or OFF. ON makes adjustments that sound like it does after the EZSet EQ has ran. However, it has not ran after the reset.

Are there some kind of default settings used for EZ EQ after a reset?

I can however not imagine that people like the sound of EQ off, because it is missing so much detail?!?

edit: I checked your setup, looks nice! very sharp! Do you use the Large as fromt or Small? I have Beta 50 Infinity that are always recognized as Large. I do have a sub.
post #15 of 26
Hello again,

If you reset and have not run EZSet/EQ, I would think there would be no change in your Manually selected settings if you clicked on the EZSet/EQ results. I have never checked that myself but it would be hard to figure what would show up other than a message perhaps to run EZSet?

And thanks for the kind words. My space is very tight and there is no wiggle room. Yes, I now run the towers as Large...just like the EZSet/EQ Auto results have been telling me to do from the beginning. I should have listened long ago. Much better for Music especially. Certain X-over choices when run as Small are not bad but nowhere near as easy to live with than running full range. EZSet/EQ simply dials back the sub level depending on how capable the towers are with Bass.

Some people will say then I just don't like the sound of my sub. But room issues which can't be fixed physically/acoustically need something. And if dialing back my sub in 2 channel works, that's what I do.

Are you running your 50's as Small with a X-over? Or as Large? I would think with 4 x 8" woofers and a sub you will have Bass issues of some kind to deal with. These things rarely go smoothly. Is your space open and what are your normal settings?
post #16 of 26
I run them Large, because I refuse to listen them as 'small' because I do like the size of them

I have been playing tonight with different angles of the mic and I had some satisfying results regarding to Very low and mid/high. Basically, that is almost perfect now. The only problem I am dealing with at the moment is the low/mid section that is a little too loud (I find it too loud)

And I have no clue how to solve that. The results I have now are done with the Mic in the far field about 20 inch above listening position and an angle of approx 40 - 45 degrees. Any suggestions what setting will lower my mid/low frequency? I dont like the boombox like buzzing (Its not that bad, but I know it is there now, so I hear it)

About the bass problem.. yeah, I have too much woofers now, 4 x 8" and 1 x 15" is too much So for music, I have my SUB disabled. I even did all the measurements without the subwoofer on and have the x-over set on 40 Hz.

I have 2 x Infinity Beta 50, 2 x Warfedale satelite, 1 x JBL center speaker (crap) and 1 Sony SUB (was cheap, but goes VERY low and is great for movies) I need a new center in the near future, but I first want to solve the bass thing. I think it is around 200 - 500 Hz that is too loud.

I hope your experience can help me on this.

edit: I might try to set the fronts to Small with a cross of 40 and set the sub cross ot 60 or so.. will try that tomorrow.


Greetings
post #17 of 26
Do the 50's have rear ports? Sometimes plugging the ports can help with certain situations. Generally port plugging allows a flatter roll-off and more extension at the bottom. In your case though this shouldn't be an issue.

If you can identify a frequency range that takes any sub out of the equation as you have, then the most likely culprit is the room and/or speaker positioning. I know my towers in-room have a dramatic difference in the roughly 80-120Hz range. The Left is +10dB around 100Hz and the Right is almost -7dB. I've switched the speakers and also receivers and amps to verify and it is the room and their placement that causes it. Because I can't move my equipment, I tinkered with running them as Small and letting the Sub handle things with higher X-overs like 120-150Hz. But then the Bass is somewhat good off-axis but not frontally and is locally resonant. A real pickle. A better sub would undoubtedly be a better option but without unrestricted placement options I don't think it would help much in my case. So I run the towers as Large, keeping the sub near the Right speaker as you can see so I can use the SUB = Front L-R + LFE setting to help balance things out a little.

Have you opened your speaker cabinets by examining/removing the drivers? I do this with even new speakers to check for proper phase in the wiring. I also stuffed all of the chambers of my towers long ago with polyfill and they noticeably improved. I would expect yours are solid and well braced with that kind of weight though (62lbs ea).
post #18 of 26
Well I have done a lot of measurements today.

And found far field mesaurements at ear hight with a 60 degrees angle of the mic the most satisfying... for stereo music.. Watched a movie tonight and i have the feeling i miss a lot of sound in Dolby Digital and DTS mode..

I am starting to feel the need for an amplifier that just does the job and no black box crap.

Another example is when I listen to Tool (band) It feels like the speaker are out of phase.. they are not, but only when listening to Tool :/ The rest sounds better and better.

Does anybody know what angles or distances of the mic will influence on what frequency areas?
post #19 of 26
Well,

just for the information for other readers that might encounter the same problems:

I have finally fixed it, after days of several measurements and listening sessions. I read in an other topic that removing the mic back a few inches could remove the booming bass. However then it is very close to the rear wall, so a forward angle is more or less required to avoid echos of the rear wall.

I also know know that the final sound that is generated after the EZSet/EQ, is dependant on both near and far field. I tested that by first only doing the far field to get the correct distances and listening to that settings, the sound changed very much after running the near field measurement after that. But in a good way.

My sound is now not much different from EZ EQ 'OFF''. The big difference is a much tighter bass and a more detailed high.. And that does it for me. I am not changing it again At least not this week.
post #20 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadRay View Post

Well,

At least not this week.


LOL

After getting the Audio to a point where I think I'll be happy for the forseeable whatever ... I just got through with (or did I?) yet another round of service menu calibration tweaks with my plasma. If it's not one thing it's another. Gotta love this hobby.
post #21 of 26
I must admit, I lied

Did 2 days more of testing last week, I wanted to be sure that my settings where not a 'lucky shot' , but reproducable, And yes. it is

I am glad that the sound does not differ much from the EZ EQ OFF settings, only what i said before, tighter bass and sharper voices. So thats ok. But now I start to think... Is this how it should sound or not? hahahaha

the doubts, yeah you are right, it is a hobby.

The same for my computer, I tweak it till the last memory timing is tested
post #22 of 26
You know the phenomen that when you think you hear something that is not good, you DO hear it.. Thats what the human brains seem to do to me at this moment.

I am a rock / metal lover and intensive use of snare drum is always present in this music. Now I think I find the snare drum too loud in the music, but the thing is that I started to hear it since a few days... So it might be imagination.

I am continuoulsly playing with tilt, currently i have the tilt on +3 db, any lower does not sound very well, any higher sounds horrible too.. But the snare drum, damn it really hits hard. Not sure if this is supposed to be like this or not.

Any ideas how to lower that frequency area?

Any help is welcome
post #23 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post

...I run Auto first and see the results without going to Near Field. If I don't like it I re-run on Manual after speaker setting selections. When I am satisfied with the Far Field setup results, I then continue to run the Near Field...

Is there an advantage to doing Auto first, then Manual? vs just starting off w/ Manual using my own speaker settings?

Thanks
post #24 of 26
When you do Auto first, you will have the accurate distances (delays) and channel levels. When you do manual after that, you can keep these distances and change the X-over and speaker settings.

I am not sure if a manual measurement will overwrite the distances and channel levels, so thats probably why auto is done first.
post #25 of 26
Thanks
post #26 of 26
ok. found this thread and as a ex bose owner my idiot card has enough stamps on it to get a free cup of coffee.
here's the question.
on a H&K avr 340 with 4 alpha 50 and a beta 50 for center and an Ad a2-300will the ezset/eq work better with speakers set to large?
essentially there are 10 8" woofers and a 12" sub. Already having issues with midbase and room treatments + curtians and booming.
is a spl meter and tone cd in my future?
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