Recording HD OTA In HD Is A Right Of The People

US Representatives sometimes will answer letters from constituents, and may pass on complaints to other agencies. But there is no follow-up, no attempt to solve problems when there is the priority matter, raisng cash for the next campaign. As for something really getting done, that doesn't happen anymore.

Here, when someone like myself posts a comment about how the rest of the world still has HDD/DVD recorders, a dozen posters denounce me for posting "conspiracy" theories instead of factual statements on the way things are. About ten months ago, Sony had to offer buyers of 25 million of their top selling DVDs (Casino Royale, The Pursuit of Happyness and many others) the option of getting replacement DVDs becasue Sony's copy protection system worked so well the DVDs were unplayable on many brands of DVD players (including some Sony models). The news media mostly buried that story, as well as other stories about limiting US consumers' rights to the latest video technology.

You just have to get used to the fact that the corporate philistines who control the electronics marketplace want to maximize their profits. Look at the push now to charge Internet users by the bandwidth they use. If oil companies can get $3.20 a gallon for gas, the sky is the limit in the future for the cost of bandwidth

Kung Hei Fat Choi!

We live in a market driven economy.

The only thing limiting the availability of high-definition recording is consumers who don't want to pay what it costs. With today's technology, you cannot build a high-definition recorder for $100. You might be able to build one for $200 -- note I said build, not sell. Businesses require a return on their investment. If it costs them $200 to build each box, they're going to want to sell it for $300. Then Best Buy will want to re-sell it for $400 (or more).


This is a cost issue, pure and simple. It costs more to do HD -- more expensive decoders, memory, and PCBs. People want a HD recorder for about the same price they pay now for SD recorders. That is simply not going to happen with current technology.

TiVo sells a dual-tuner HDTV cable+OTA recorder for $250 with monthly fees, or $699 without monthly fees. In January, Echostar announced its own dual-tuner OTA HDTV recorder for release in July; it is expected to sell for less than $500 with no monthly fees. The choices will remain limited until (1) more consumers are willing to pay what it costs companies to build such products and obtain a reasonable return, and/or (2) technology improves to dramatically reduce the cost.

Not going to happen. To cut it short, HD is not in the DVD spec. The sticky should be amended to say that it'll never happen. Not at current prices at least.

EDIT: Adding to what bfdtv has said, even if prices went down you'd still be incompatible with every DVD player in the world other than the recorder you used.

Actually BFDTV has posted a way for people to record FULL hd onto a standard DVD, and the resulting DVD would be playable on any HD DVD player. Problem is.....40-50 minute recording time on a 4.7GB DVD. I was really interested in this exercise until I found out the recording time, and realized most of my recording are 2 hrs at a time.
The problem with HD on standard DVD is the sheer size of the data for HD. That's why they came up with HD DVD or BR with a much larger sized storage medium. The problems is just larger companies have the capitol to produce those type of recorders, and you can be sure all the recorders will abide by every type of CP scheme imaginable.
To me it's very ironic that a company like SONY actually fought for peoples right to record TV(with the Betamax case) and now I believe they are the very ones developing and promoting various CP schemes to stop people from doing the same for HD TV. Could it be the almighty dollar, since Sony is now a major software company........follow the money....As BFDTV said "we live in a market driven economy" What incentive does Sony have for developing a HD recorder that will cut into it's software arm. None, they would rather us just purchase our HD, so they can get there cut.
I'm really putting all my HD hopes in the TR-50 basket, realizing I won't be able to archive to DVD, but rather HDD. I guess now we'll have to start a thread titled "HDD medial deals this week" but I suppose that thread should belong in the HDTV recorders forum, and not here in DVD recorders forum.

I already know about hacks like AVCREC, etc. The market for such a device is very small. You mentioned the TR-50. Ask yourself why they didn't put in a DVD recorder. Let's exclude CP. According to bfdtv, it wouldn't cost that much, but he only took hardware costs into account. You need to do coding, compatibility testing, etc. just for a small feature very few will use. No need to build something very few will use. You don't have to blame greed this time.

The "right" to record is actually a "fair use" exemption from prosecution for recording copyrighted material.

What has changed with the "No Electronic Theft Act" (1997) and the "Digital Millennium Copyright Act" (1998), and regulations and agency decisions that implement these Acts, is the use of technology that prevents reproduction of copyrighted material in the same quality as the original.

This technology may allow a single "fair use" recording on DVRs provided by satellite and cable providers (where royalties are paid to copyright holders through agents or assigns); unrestricted recording, or no recording. The technology inherent in digital and HD transmission and tuning supports these restrictions and/or prevents recording to media that may produce more than one copy, i.e., a DVD recorder.

That's actually a very good idea. And as long as it pertains to using it with the DVR's, it surely does belong here, I'd say.

While I have previously mentioned (in other threads) some products that are "sensitive" or "overly sensitive" to copyright protection, I realize that the day is coming, if not already here, where home-recording of DVDs may come to its end.

That's why I time-shift material now for future viewing.

I keep my 2005 and 2006 Panasonic models functional for regular and standby use. Current model Panasonics (yes, I have two current models at the moment) seem to be more "problematic."

I'm sorry, but I just can't help looking at the title of this thread and seeing "Fidel Castro" as the thread starter.

I concur, except I think your cost estimates are a little low for today's technology. The TR-50 will allow me to timeshift OTA recordings in HD so I don't see where I am being denied a "right of the people". Even if I had the option of including a BluRay recorder to build a personal library, I wouldn't even consider spending $20 a pop for blank record-once media. The price will eventually come down, but it isn't there yet so don't bother me with a choice I have no intention of spending money on.

That's market driven.

There is another side to the technology I'm waiting to see. I fully intend to get a TR-50 when they come out. So, I'll record OTA in HD, then record out a down-converted 480 signal to my E-85 in XP mode. Then it's off to the PC to edit and transcode to a wide dynamic range 2hr recording to compare with the XP recording. And finally playing the DVD-R on an Oppo-981HD. From what I've seen it do for a commercial DVD I don't think I'll be disappointed nor will I be yearning for the ability to record DVD's in HD.

HoustonGuy, you've been vindicated. Years ago you were telling everyone the only way to watch a recorded DVD was on a premo player (you liked the ones on the "Secrets" list) and we were nuts if we didn't. Well, you were a little ahead of your time but eventually right. The only way to watch a DVD(-R) on a 1080p display is with a premo player.

I also make most of my DVD recordings at the maximum bit rate possible - Sony HQ speed. It's the only way to fly in my book. I only compromise this for shows of 90 minutes duration, (fortunately, somewhat rare for me). I'll drop down just one speed to fit it all onto one disc. That bit rate is about 7.5 Mbps.


nx211

Umm, the FCC prohibits copy protection on OTA signals.

So you can get a DVR with an ATSC tuner and record to your heart's content.

The FCC also prohibits copy protection on cable rebroadcasts of OTA channels on cable, but there are mistakes (deliberate or not) there.. and some people have fought back and had the no copy flags fixed. I did see another example, like I think I did last year. On the Barbara Walters special, my XS32 stopped recording partway in since it was 'copy protected'. My Tivo recorded it fine after I started recording again. This was probably a violation but I don't care too much in this case. If it happens repeatedly, I will complain.

Some of us have been able to do this for several years with D-VHS VCRs. DVDs are a standard def. media. Perhaps in a few years Blu-ray Disc recorders will be available for a few hundred dollars. Remember we are still in the early years of HD consumer media. Back in the 1970's VCRs started off at over $1000 and it was perhaps 5 years later before they dropped to the sub-$500 range. Heck I paid around $700 for a S-VHS VCR around 15 years after buying my first VCR. Finally it was only a few years ago that Panasonic DVD recorders were selling for $700 to $1000.

Ron Jones

Can you archive HD in Cuba?

The key phrase is, 'Right of the People.'

?? Buy a pinnacle HD plug in stick for $100. You can record in HD to a hard drive at your leisure (yes it uses a computer...but who cares.).

I record 1 hr episodes OTA HD to my hard drive. It takes about 10 minutes to edit out commericals using Video Redo. I then make a HD DVD on a D9 disk using Movie Factory. I get 1 HR of 1080i, DD 5.1 to easily fit on a D9...with space to spare.


Easy as pie.

What do you play it back on.

They play back on HD DVD players. Which are going for a song at the moment because of the death of HD DVD. You can also play them back on a pc HD DVD ROM drive.

Problem is, with the death of HD DVD, player options down the road will be a concern.

edit - and my guess is that you can also author them as blu-ray on a DVD-9 disc and play them back on a blu player - not sure though.

Nextoo is correct. 1080i, DD 5.1 uncompressed playback on my HD DVD players.

I own four of them (last one purchased new for $65) so I should be good until I'm 70

Because it is OTA so I don't have to worry about the multitude of flags that cable passes along with the network signal.

You can create Blu-ray compatible high-definition disks on DVD media, but that requires a time-consuming re-encode to AVC. The latest version of Nero will do this.

The HD-DVD standard was nice because it supported high-definition MPEG-2 on DVD5 and DVD9 media, so no encoding was required. This allowed you to create HD-DVD compatible high-definition disks on DVD media in about the time it took to burn the DVD.

the right to life, liberty and the Pursuit of recording hdtv

I guess this may be a reason for somebody to pick up a close-out HD DVD player then. I've seen them go for less than $50. Not a bad way to archive HD content and at least be able to view via the HD DVD player. The recordings are stored digitally and could possibly be converted sometime down the road to the latest and greatest.

Another alternative to recording to HD-DVD is I record over Pinnacle USB tuner to my PC and have setup windows media player to be a media server on my local network. Then with my PS3 I can locate the PC and playback the HD recordings over the PS3 with no problem.

If I want to keep the recording then I use Movie Factory 6 Plus and make the HD-DVD recording. If its longer than 45 minutes or so I just split the recording into whatever time blocks I need and burn DVD-R. They are pretty cheap media, I dont mind switching them out on playback.

But I agree with everyone else here, I have the right to either record broadcast or make copy of my purchased media for my own private use...once I try to profit then shame on me.

PrestonD,

Per my first 2/16/2008 post:

"The 'right' to record is actually a 'fair use' exemption from prosecution for recording copyrighted material."

Yes, I have the right for "fair use" exemption from prosecution for recording copyrighted material ;-)