Speakerquest (so far...) - Page 38

Originally Posted by loopguru

HiFiSponge, do you have a turntable? If so, do records have the same graininess?

Originally Posted by hifisponge

Loop -

Sorry, no turn table. All digital.

Tried a set of Bel Canto Ref 1000 monoblocks last night, which are said to have a tube-like smoothness (minus the richness of tubes), and in short, I heard no appreciable reduction in grain / edge. I'm starting to think that modern high-end speakers with all of their advanced driver tech (Beryllium, Titanium, Carbon Fiber, Nomex, etc) are just so revealing of all of the recorded detail, that they simply show too much. Kinda like watching porn in HD. There are some details that you just don't need to / want to see.

I have to say that comparing the Bel Canto's to my Lexicon was a bit of a mindf**k. I would switch to the BC's and initially think there were all these improvements to the sound (probably because I expected them to sound better), but then when I would switch back to the Lex, it sounded just as good in those areas. That, and the longer I listened to either amp, the more apparent the shortcomings of the sound became.

Hearing it seems, is a moving target. For instance, to keep things fair and consistent, I kept the volume at one level. Anytime I would switch between amps, there was a period of adjustment needed to get used to volume level again. It always seemed too loud and aggressive at first, which gave a poor impression of each amp at the start. Then, there is this short period after the ears adjust where things sound pretty good, followed by a settling in to the sound and an uncovering of all of its flaws. And then there is the affect of my expectations overlaid on top of my auditioning as well. I wanted / expected the BC's to sound better and they did for a while, but then as I switched back to the Lex's they now sounded as good / bad in the same areas as the BCs. I also noticed that certain sounds would bother me at random moments despite no change in amp or song. Initially this made me think that one amp was better than the other in a particular area, but then I would listen again and that same sound was no longer an issue. Blargh!

This is amp #2 (the first was Parasound Halo) that has failed to make any meaningful change to the sound quality, good or bad.

I'll spend a little more time with the Bel Canto's over the next couple of weeks to see if anything changes for the better or worse, but I have to say, if I can't get things to sound better than they have for the past 8 months and 4 sets of speakers later, I may just throw in the towel on the high-end of this hobby. I'm not having much fun and it's costing me a fortune. I won't stop listening to music or watching movies, but I may get away from super hi-tech and go back to soft domes and poly or paper cones.

Originally Posted by bostonbean

Aren't the Bel Cantos class D amps which require several hundred hours of break-in?

Originally Posted by golfugh

Well I had the opportunity to audition the KEF Reference 205/2 today. I went to Park Ave Audio around 1045 and was able to at least hear this speaker. I just want to start by saying that the room the speakers were in was a disaster. There had to be 20 pairs of speakers, little to no treatments, with glass all on the back wall. The room measured about 15x15 with 15 foot ceilings (visual estimates, in other words a square box). It was a disappointment. The glass and light fixtures rattled, sounds emanated from everywhere, etc. They even had the Dali Euphonia MS-4 and Helicon 400 mk2 and I didn't listen to them...that's how bad it was. I will pass on some impressions, but the room destroyed a valid audition.

Music

John Mellencamp, Life Death Love and Freedom; BB King & Eric Clapton, Riding with the King; Led Zeppelin, Houses of the Holy; some Diana Krall poorly recorded from the dealer.

Electronics

Meridian G57 amp, G02 pre, G08 player.

Impressions

($10K MSRP) Outstanding cabinets in piano black, incredible construction. This speaker is gorgeous IMO. Works well with grills on or off in the appearance category. I played them with the grills off.

The only thing I can say with any certainty is that I didn't find the treble piercing. I didn't notice the unbearable highs that Hifisponge has mentioned with the previous Reference series. Everything else was so bloated and boomy due to room acoustics that I can't make any further comments. My first note when they started playing was "the room sucks"....

Needless to say, I was disappointed. I'm looking forward to auditioning this speaker in a better atmosphere. The decision has been put on hold, I really need to give this speaker a chance to make my final choice!

More to come
Mark

PS: They only had the 205/2 on display.

Originally Posted by cubbie5150

Ironic that "high end" manufacturers rationalize distribution to select vendors/stores supposedly to better the buying experience for potential customers, yet you encounter such a listening room.

Originally Posted by hifisponge

Loop -

Sorry, no turn table. All digital.

Tried a set of Bel Canto Ref 1000 monoblocks last night, which are said to have a tube-like smoothness (minus the richness of tubes), and in short, I heard no appreciable reduction in grain / edge. I'm starting to think that modern high-end speakers with all of their advanced driver tech (Beryllium, Titanium, Carbon Fiber, Nomex, etc) are just so revealing of all of the recorded detail, that they simply show too much. Kinda like watching porn in HD. There are some details that you just don't need to / want to see.

I have to say that comparing the Bel Canto's to my Lexicon was a bit of a mindf**k. I would switch to the BC's and initially think there were all these improvements to the sound (probably because I expected them to sound better), but then when I would switch back to the Lex, it sounded just as good in those areas. That, and the longer I listened to either amp, the more apparent the shortcomings of the sound became.

Hearing it seems, is a moving target. For instance, to keep things fair and consistent, I kept the volume at one level. Anytime I would switch between amps, there was a period of adjustment needed to get used to volume level again. It always seemed too loud and aggressive at first, which gave a poor impression of each amp at the start. Then, there is this short period after the ears adjust where things sound pretty good, followed by a settling in to the sound and an uncovering of all of its flaws. And then there is the affect of my expectations overlaid on top of my auditioning as well. I wanted / expected the BC's to sound better and they did for a while, but then as I switched back to the Lex's they now sounded as good / bad in the same areas as the BCs. I also noticed that certain sounds would bother me at random moments despite no change in amp or song. Initially this made me think that one amp was better than the other in a particular area, but then I would listen again and that same sound was no longer an issue. Blargh!

This is amp #2 (the first was Parasound Halo) that has failed to make any meaningful change to the sound quality, good or bad.

I'll spend a little more time with the Bel Canto's over the next couple of weeks to see if anything changes for the better or worse, but I have to say, if I can't get things to sound better than they have for the past 8 months and 4 sets of speakers later, I may just throw in the towel on the high-end of this hobby. I'm not having much fun and it's costing me a fortune. I won't stop listening to music or watching movies, but I may get away from super hi-tech and go back to soft domes and poly or paper cones.

Originally Posted by golfugh

To be truthful, I was going to ask but things were so bad I totally forgot.

Originally Posted by PAD

What's the preamp?

Originally Posted by cubbie5150

Ironic that "high end" manufacturers rationalize distribution to select vendors/stores supposedly to better the buying experience for potential customers, yet you encounter such a listening room.

Originally Posted by rydenfan

Lexicon home theater processor. I have suggested a change here but he is quite sold on Logic7 surround processing for all music listening. That is why I am suggesting a change in amps.

Originally Posted by hifisponge

They're used. So I've give them a week of constant power and listen again, but they should be broken in.

Originally Posted by cschang

Tim......I am reaching here, but have you tried speaker cables with different levels of capacitance and inductance?

Originally Posted by hifisponge

Yes, in fact I have. I have some solid core Audioquest Type 8 cable, and some XLO multistranded bi-wires. Two very different cables, yet they pretty much sound the same to me.

I've been thinking that this grain I hear is just on the recordings, and it very well may be, but since I don't hear a level of grain that is bothersome on either my premium car stereo, or my modest video game room system, I'm not so sure. How sad is it that I would rather listen in my car or to my $2500 game room system, than my state-of-the-art system?

It could be that the high-end speakers I've been running are just more revealing of recordings, warts and all. Either way, I don't want this level of detail. It's not enjoyable.

I need someone local to come and listen to my system, just to verify that I am not insane. I need validation.

Originally Posted by bostonbean

How's this for a nutty idea. Maybe you should go listen to some real live music at a local jazz club or something like that and then go home and listen to your system. If nothing else it will get you out of the house.

Originally Posted by PAD

Curious on that one as well. So this is a double-duty room then? otherwise I would recommend a tubed preamp.

Originally Posted by Nuance

I second that recommendation. I think a Modwright would be a great place to start, and I am fairly sure rydenfan agrees. If that doesn't work then I'm afraid it's either the source, source player or Tim's ears (no offense, Tim).

Originally Posted by hifisponge

No offense taken. I have often thought it is just me, but then I listen to the same recording on headphones, in the car and on my other system, and none of them bother me like the big system.

I have also troubleshooted this problem 9 ways from Sunday (whatever that means) . I have connected the player both digitally to the pre and analog out directly to the amp. So that leaves the recording, the amp, and the speakers. I think the recording is part of it, as I can faintly hear some of the grain on the other systems--it just isn't bothersome. The amp is up in the air, as I have tried a few with little luck, but that may just mean I haven't found the right one yet. And again, I think the speakers are also part of it because they are so revealing.

PS - I could go tubed pre, but then I would still hear this problem on movies and TV.

Originally Posted by hifisponge

How sad is it that I would rather listen in my car or to my $2500 game room system, than my state-of-the-art system?

It could be that the high-end speakers I've been running are just more revealing of recordings, warts and all. Either way, I don't want this level of detail. It's not enjoyable.

I need someone local to come and listen to my system, just to verify that I am not insane. I need validation.

Originally Posted by golfugh

Tim
Wish you all the best on your new venture. Hope the Classe' gear "melts your butter"!!

Are you waiting on the SSP-800?

Let us know in the amp thread what you think once it's all set up and running.
Mark

Originally Posted by DulcetTones

Heh Tim,
watch out for the upgrade bug of the Classe amps if you purchased the 5200.
If you read a lot of the Classe threads those that start with the 5200 on reference speakers either eventually upgrade the fronts to Cams (preferred route by many) or add a 2nd 5200 to share the load.
But, at least this can be done over time.

Anyway glad your getting closer to achieving your goals bud.
Happy listening all.
DT

Originally Posted by hifisponge

Nuance -

I did something radical today. I took the first step toward "starting over" as you suggested. I have been considering this for a while, so it is funny that you should mention it. So anyway, I went and listened to my recordings on some Classe gear at the local shop during lunch. Well, it turns out that part of the problem is in fact the recording, but the sound was less digital on the Classe. So I made a somewhat rash decision to scrap all of my Lexicon gear to give the Classe stack a shot. Everything is going. The Lex prepro, the Lex player, the Lex amp and the EQ. I'll have to wait for up to 2 months for the prepro, but I'm going to see about finding an amp on Agon.

With that said, I also had an epiphany today. You know how we have all talked about going through a honeymoon phase with new equipment, well it happens with recordings for me too. I realized after listening to my audition CD for the 100th time on reference grade gear at the hi-fi shop that what I once thought were reference recordings have their flaws too. And just like new equipment, they don't make themselves known until you have heard them more than a few times.

Oh, but I have to share an experience before I wrap this up. After listening to the Classe gear, which sounded great, the salesman took me to a two channel room with an all Audio Research front-end connected to some Wilson Watt puppies. The AR gear was all tube based. This was my first exposure to tube gear. Even though I have had little respect for Wilson from an engineering standpoint, this was the most amazing system I have ever heard. Holy crap! The soundstage was massive and wrap-around in just stereo, and the sound its self was detailed but not bright or edgy. Man, if I could get that sound in my room, I would have no need for music in surround ala Logic 7. Surprisingly the tube gear didn't sound as euphonic as I thought it would, it just seemed to make the sound a bit smoother and more harmonically complete.

Is the massive soundstage a product of all of the tubes, or was this the famous Wilson wall of sound I have read about?

I suppose this represents a potential turning point for me and I will have to try to find a way to get a tubed preamp into my system.

Wish me luck.