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Speakerquest (so far...) - Page 38

post #1111 of 2196
Quote:
Originally Posted by loopguru View Post

HiFiSponge, do you have a turntable? If so, do records have the same graininess?

Loop -

Sorry, no turn table. All digital.

Tried a set of Bel Canto Ref 1000 monoblocks last night, which are said to have a tube-like smoothness (minus the richness of tubes), and in short, I heard no appreciable reduction in grain / edge. I'm starting to think that modern high-end speakers with all of their advanced driver tech (Beryllium, Titanium, Carbon Fiber, Nomex, etc) are just so revealing of all of the recorded detail, that they simply show too much. Kinda like watching porn in HD. There are some details that you just don't need to / want to see.

I have to say that comparing the Bel Canto's to my Lexicon was a bit of a mindf**k. I would switch to the BC's and initially think there were all these improvements to the sound (probably because I expected them to sound better), but then when I would switch back to the Lex, it sounded just as good in those areas. That, and the longer I listened to either amp, the more apparent the shortcomings of the sound became.

Hearing it seems, is a moving target. For instance, to keep things fair and consistent, I kept the volume at one level. Anytime I would switch between amps, there was a period of adjustment needed to get used to volume level again. It always seemed too loud and aggressive at first, which gave a poor impression of each amp at the start. Then, there is this short period after the ears adjust where things sound pretty good, followed by a settling in to the sound and an uncovering of all of its flaws. And then there is the affect of my expectations overlaid on top of my auditioning as well. I wanted / expected the BC's to sound better and they did for a while, but then as I switched back to the Lex's they now sounded as good / bad in the same areas as the BCs. I also noticed that certain sounds would bother me at random moments despite no change in amp or song. Initially this made me think that one amp was better than the other in a particular area, but then I would listen again and that same sound was no longer an issue. Blargh!

This is amp #2 (the first was Parasound Halo) that has failed to make any meaningful change to the sound quality, good or bad.

I'll spend a little more time with the Bel Canto's over the next couple of weeks to see if anything changes for the better or worse, but I have to say, if I can't get things to sound better than they have for the past 8 months and 4 sets of speakers later, I may just throw in the towel on the high-end of this hobby. I'm not having much fun and it's costing me a fortune. I won't stop listening to music or watching movies, but I may get away from super hi-tech and go back to soft domes and poly or paper cones.
post #1112 of 2196
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Loop -

Sorry, no turn table. All digital.

Tried a set of Bel Canto Ref 1000 monoblocks last night, which are said to have a tube-like smoothness (minus the richness of tubes), and in short, I heard no appreciable reduction in grain / edge. I'm starting to think that modern high-end speakers with all of their advanced driver tech (Beryllium, Titanium, Carbon Fiber, Nomex, etc) are just so revealing of all of the recorded detail, that they simply show too much. Kinda like watching porn in HD. There are some details that you just don't need to / want to see.

I have to say that comparing the Bel Canto's to my Lexicon was a bit of a mindf**k. I would switch to the BC's and initially think there were all these improvements to the sound (probably because I expected them to sound better), but then when I would switch back to the Lex, it sounded just as good in those areas. That, and the longer I listened to either amp, the more apparent the shortcomings of the sound became.

Hearing it seems, is a moving target. For instance, to keep things fair and consistent, I kept the volume at one level. Anytime I would switch between amps, there was a period of adjustment needed to get used to volume level again. It always seemed too loud and aggressive at first, which gave a poor impression of each amp at the start. Then, there is this short period after the ears adjust where things sound pretty good, followed by a settling in to the sound and an uncovering of all of its flaws. And then there is the affect of my expectations overlaid on top of my auditioning as well. I wanted / expected the BC's to sound better and they did for a while, but then as I switched back to the Lex's they now sounded as good / bad in the same areas as the BCs. I also noticed that certain sounds would bother me at random moments despite no change in amp or song. Initially this made me think that one amp was better than the other in a particular area, but then I would listen again and that same sound was no longer an issue. Blargh!

This is amp #2 (the first was Parasound Halo) that has failed to make any meaningful change to the sound quality, good or bad.

I'll spend a little more time with the Bel Canto's over the next couple of weeks to see if anything changes for the better or worse, but I have to say, if I can't get things to sound better than they have for the past 8 months and 4 sets of speakers later, I may just throw in the towel on the high-end of this hobby. I'm not having much fun and it's costing me a fortune. I won't stop listening to music or watching movies, but I may get away from super hi-tech and go back to soft domes and poly or paper cones.

Aren't the Bel Cantos class D amps which require several hundred hours of break-in?
post #1113 of 2196
Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonbean View Post

Aren't the Bel Cantos class D amps which require several hundred hours of break-in?

They're used. So I've give them a week of constant power and listen again, but they should be broken in.
post #1114 of 2196
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfugh View Post

Well I had the opportunity to audition the KEF Reference 205/2 today. I went to Park Ave Audio around 1045 and was able to at least hear this speaker. I just want to start by saying that the room the speakers were in was a disaster. There had to be 20 pairs of speakers, little to no treatments, with glass all on the back wall. The room measured about 15x15 with 15 foot ceilings (visual estimates, in other words a square box). It was a disappointment. The glass and light fixtures rattled, sounds emanated from everywhere, etc. They even had the Dali Euphonia MS-4 and Helicon 400 mk2 and I didn't listen to them...that's how bad it was. I will pass on some impressions, but the room destroyed a valid audition.

Music

John Mellencamp, Life Death Love and Freedom; BB King & Eric Clapton, Riding with the King; Led Zeppelin, Houses of the Holy; some Diana Krall poorly recorded from the dealer.

Electronics

Meridian G57 amp, G02 pre, G08 player.

Impressions

($10K MSRP) Outstanding cabinets in piano black, incredible construction. This speaker is gorgeous IMO. Works well with grills on or off in the appearance category. I played them with the grills off.

The only thing I can say with any certainty is that I didn't find the treble piercing. I didn't notice the unbearable highs that Hifisponge has mentioned with the previous Reference series. Everything else was so bloated and boomy due to room acoustics that I can't make any further comments. My first note when they started playing was "the room sucks"....

Needless to say, I was disappointed. I'm looking forward to auditioning this speaker in a better atmosphere. The decision has been put on hold, I really need to give this speaker a chance to make my final choice!

More to come
Mark

PS: They only had the 205/2 on display.

Ironic that "high end" manufacturers rationalize distribution to select vendors/stores supposedly to better the buying experience for potential customers, yet you encounter such a listening room.
post #1115 of 2196
Quote:
Originally Posted by cubbie5150 View Post

Ironic that "high end" manufacturers rationalize distribution to select vendors/stores supposedly to better the buying experience for potential customers, yet you encounter such a listening room.

I am not sure why you find this ironic? Unfortunately, in the day and age we live in, the audio dealer is a rapidly disappearing business. Most people use the internet to shop for the absolute lowest price and usually never even give their local dealer the opportunity to earn their business. Then we all wonder why there are no great places for us to go audition speakers at places we do not plan on supporting in any way. Now that is ironic...
post #1116 of 2196
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Loop -

Sorry, no turn table. All digital.

Tried a set of Bel Canto Ref 1000 monoblocks last night, which are said to have a tube-like smoothness (minus the richness of tubes), and in short, I heard no appreciable reduction in grain / edge. I'm starting to think that modern high-end speakers with all of their advanced driver tech (Beryllium, Titanium, Carbon Fiber, Nomex, etc) are just so revealing of all of the recorded detail, that they simply show too much. Kinda like watching porn in HD. There are some details that you just don't need to / want to see.

I have to say that comparing the Bel Canto's to my Lexicon was a bit of a mindf**k. I would switch to the BC's and initially think there were all these improvements to the sound (probably because I expected them to sound better), but then when I would switch back to the Lex, it sounded just as good in those areas. That, and the longer I listened to either amp, the more apparent the shortcomings of the sound became.

Hearing it seems, is a moving target. For instance, to keep things fair and consistent, I kept the volume at one level. Anytime I would switch between amps, there was a period of adjustment needed to get used to volume level again. It always seemed too loud and aggressive at first, which gave a poor impression of each amp at the start. Then, there is this short period after the ears adjust where things sound pretty good, followed by a settling in to the sound and an uncovering of all of its flaws. And then there is the affect of my expectations overlaid on top of my auditioning as well. I wanted / expected the BC's to sound better and they did for a while, but then as I switched back to the Lex's they now sounded as good / bad in the same areas as the BCs. I also noticed that certain sounds would bother me at random moments despite no change in amp or song. Initially this made me think that one amp was better than the other in a particular area, but then I would listen again and that same sound was no longer an issue. Blargh!

This is amp #2 (the first was Parasound Halo) that has failed to make any meaningful change to the sound quality, good or bad.

I'll spend a little more time with the Bel Canto's over the next couple of weeks to see if anything changes for the better or worse, but I have to say, if I can't get things to sound better than they have for the past 8 months and 4 sets of speakers later, I may just throw in the towel on the high-end of this hobby. I'm not having much fun and it's costing me a fortune. I won't stop listening to music or watching movies, but I may get away from super hi-tech and go back to soft domes and poly or paper cones.

Tim
I'm really sorry to hear this. Don't give up! You will find something that fixes the problem and will allow you to retain the Logic7.

Do you notice the same graininess during movie playback or solely with music?

I still think a Hybrid tube amp will help if you experience the same things in both movies or music, or a tube pre with HT bypass if only with music. Just my 2 cents.
Good luck and don't quit
Mark
post #1117 of 2196
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfugh View Post

To be truthful, I was going to ask but things were so bad I totally forgot.

Let me say that, in only partial defense of the dealer, they are undergoing an obvious and major renovation of all their rooms and the main room, where we were, was in a condition such as I have never seen it. I have heard much better in that room at other times with other equipment but I do agree with Mark's observations.
post #1118 of 2196
What's the preamp?
post #1119 of 2196
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAD View Post

What's the preamp?

Lexicon home theater processor. I have suggested a change here but he is quite sold on Logic7 surround processing for all music listening. That is why I am suggesting a change in amps.
post #1120 of 2196
Quote:
Originally Posted by cubbie5150 View Post

Ironic that "high end" manufacturers rationalize distribution to select vendors/stores supposedly to better the buying experience for potential customers, yet you encounter such a listening room.

I can honestly say this is the only time in listening to over 32 pairs of speakers that I have been disappointed by the room acoustics to the point of ceasing an audition. I have been thrilled with the level of professionalism I've experienced from the lowest (Magnolia, great folks but not the most knowledgeable) to the highest end dealers (Pure Audio and Video in Miami).

Most of these dealers knew in their heart of hearts that I was probably not going to purchase from them unless I was blown away and they gave me the best deal (reference Rydenfans statement above).

To be truthful if Avalon had a decent center speaker I'd probably be buying the Ascendants and from Pure. Gustavo was the best dealer I've experienced. He sold me, but the speaker company didn't provide him with what was required to sell them to me. Not his fault.

In Park Ave's defense, their entire dealership was undergoing remodeling and hopefully will improve once completed. I will also say they were great to deal with knowing that I probably wasn't planning on buying from them unlike a dealer in San Fran that I won't name.

I take this as an isolated incident!
Such is life
Mark
post #1121 of 2196
Quote:
Originally Posted by rydenfan View Post

Lexicon home theater processor. I have suggested a change here but he is quite sold on Logic7 surround processing for all music listening. That is why I am suggesting a change in amps.

In the Lexicon's defense, in my attempts to trouble shoot, I ran the L/R analog outs directly from my CD player to the amp, bypassing the pre and the EQ alltogether, and . . . . drumroll please . . . . no difference in sound quality. None, nada, zip. Yes, the music was quite loud with no volume controls in the mix, but we're not talking earbleeding or speaker damaging levels.
post #1122 of 2196
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

They're used. So I've give them a week of constant power and listen again, but they should be broken in.

I realize I am a little late to the game but are you doing all of your listening through Logic 7? What does your system sound like in just a stereo configuration leaving out Logic 7? Do you still have the same issues?


Guess you answered my question already. Personally I think two channel and surround are two totally different animals. But that is only my humble opinion.
post #1123 of 2196
Curious on that one as well. So this is a double-duty room then? otherwise I would recommend a tubed preamp.
post #1124 of 2196
Tim......I am reaching here, but have you tried speaker cables with different levels of capacitance and inductance?
post #1125 of 2196
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Tim......I am reaching here, but have you tried speaker cables with different levels of capacitance and inductance?

Yes, in fact I have. I have some solid core Audioquest Type 8 cable, and some XLO multistranded bi-wires. Two very different cables, yet they pretty much sound the same to me.

I've been thinking that this grain I hear is just on the recordings, and it very well may be, but since I don't hear a level of grain that is bothersome on either my premium car stereo, or my modest video game room system, I'm not so sure. How sad is it that I would rather listen in my car or to my $2500 game room system, than my state-of-the-art system?

It could be that the high-end speakers I've been running are just more revealing of recordings, warts and all. Either way, I don't want this level of detail. It's not enjoyable.

I need someone local to come and listen to my system, just to verify that I am not insane. I need validation.
post #1126 of 2196
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Yes, in fact I have. I have some solid core Audioquest Type 8 cable, and some XLO multistranded bi-wires. Two very different cables, yet they pretty much sound the same to me.

I've been thinking that this grain I hear is just on the recordings, and it very well may be, but since I don't hear a level of grain that is bothersome on either my premium car stereo, or my modest video game room system, I'm not so sure. How sad is it that I would rather listen in my car or to my $2500 game room system, than my state-of-the-art system?

It could be that the high-end speakers I've been running are just more revealing of recordings, warts and all. Either way, I don't want this level of detail. It's not enjoyable.

I need someone local to come and listen to my system, just to verify that I am not insane. I need validation.

How's this for a nutty idea. Maybe you should go listen to some real live music at a local jazz club or something like that and then go home and listen to your system. If nothing else it will get you out of the house.
post #1127 of 2196
Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonbean View Post

How's this for a nutty idea. Maybe you should go listen to some real live music at a local jazz club or something like that and then go home and listen to your system. If nothing else it will get you out of the house.

LOL. yeah, I'm obsessed. Maybe I just need to get away from it for a while.
post #1128 of 2196
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAD View Post

Curious on that one as well. So this is a double-duty room then? otherwise I would recommend a tubed preamp.

I second that recommendation. I think a Modwright would be a great place to start, and I am fairly sure rydenfan agrees. If that doesn't work then I'm afraid it's either the source, source player or Tim's ears (no offense, Tim).
post #1129 of 2196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

I second that recommendation. I think a Modwright would be a great place to start, and I am fairly sure rydenfan agrees. If that doesn't work then I'm afraid it's either the source, source player or Tim's ears (no offense, Tim).

No offense taken. I have often thought it is just me, but then I listen to the same recording on headphones, in the car and on my other system, and none of them bother me like the big system.

I have also troubleshooted this problem 9 ways from Sunday (whatever that means) . I have connected the player both digitally to the pre and analog out directly to the amp. So that leaves the recording, the amp, and the speakers. I think the recording is part of it, as I can faintly hear some of the grain on the other systems--it just isn't bothersome. The amp is up in the air, as I have tried a few with little luck, but that may just mean I haven't found the right one yet. And again, I think the speakers are also part of it because they are so revealing.

PS - I could go tubed pre, but then I would still hear this problem on movies and TV.
post #1130 of 2196
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

No offense taken. I have often thought it is just me, but then I listen to the same recording on headphones, in the car and on my other system, and none of them bother me like the big system.

I have also troubleshooted this problem 9 ways from Sunday (whatever that means) . I have connected the player both digitally to the pre and analog out directly to the amp. So that leaves the recording, the amp, and the speakers. I think the recording is part of it, as I can faintly hear some of the grain on the other systems--it just isn't bothersome. The amp is up in the air, as I have tried a few with little luck, but that may just mean I haven't found the right one yet. And again, I think the speakers are also part of it because they are so revealing.

PS - I could go tubed pre, but then I would still hear this problem on movies and TV.

You are in a bind bro. Almost a half dozen speakers came through your place in less than a year and none of them are keeping you pleased. You've got all of these speakers that you've given negative points to, many of which may not have had anything wrong with them in realty at all (since you've now fixed the room and still aren't happy other variables are at play that obviously outweigh the speakers). That tells me (us) that the speakers more than likely aren't the main issue. While you've already fixed the room, there must be other variables at fault, whether its just you and your ears or pieces of equipment/the source. If it's you, that's an easy fix: simply give up on searching through the "hi-fi" and "accurate" speakers and let your ears and emotions tell you what you truly love (remember, you want to connect emotionally to the music rather than sit there analytically and listen for faults. just listen and lose yourself). In other words, start from scratch as if you were an audio noob. Go out and re-audition, paying close attention to what the source player and other component brands are. In the end, if it requires you to purchase the entire exact system that you audition in the store, so be it. Do what it takes, because I don't want to see you posting back in these forums that you are unhappy. You've put too much time, sweat and effort into this and you deserve better; you deserve to be so wowed by your system that you refuse to get out of your seat and would rather soil your pants than leave your incredible system idle for a potty break! Seriously - no more posts about your system not living up to your standards. Soon I want to see you spamming every forum on the internet telling us, subjectively (in your opinion), that your system is perfection incarnate. This, of course, does not mean that we don't want situational updates. We want updates...we NEED updates!

All sarcasm aside, I really feel for you bro. This situation must be driving you insane, so it's time to put this to rest. If necessary (as in you want to sell the Revel's and search elsewhere), I highly recommend starting from scratch. You owe it to yourself, even if it means finding eternal happiness in a $300 HTiB.

P.S. This was not meant to be critical, Tim. But it was was meant to be a motivational pep-talk from a friend to help you see some of the humor in this, to help you get through this and to encourage you to keep moving forward even if you have to take 5 steps backwards.

Your time will come brother, and when it does we'll all be at the finish line cheering your name!
post #1131 of 2196
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

How sad is it that I would rather listen in my car or to my $2500 game room system, than my state-of-the-art system?

It could be that the high-end speakers I've been running are just more revealing of recordings, warts and all. Either way, I don't want this level of detail. It's not enjoyable.

I need someone local to come and listen to my system, just to verify that I am not insane. I need validation.

quit Listening critically , I know its hard, I had to give up on 2 channel for more than 5 years
post #1132 of 2196
Nuance -

I did something radical today. I took the first step toward "starting over" as you suggested. I have been considering this for a while, so it is funny that you should mention it. So anyway, I went and listened to my recordings on some Classe gear at the local shop during lunch. Well, it turns out that part of the problem is in fact the recording, but the sound was less digital on the Classe. So I made a somewhat rash decision to scrap all of my Lexicon gear to give the Classe stack a shot. Everything is going. The Lex prepro, the Lex player, the Lex amp and the EQ. I'll have to wait for up to 2 months for the prepro, but I'm going to see about finding an amp on Agon.

With that said, I also had an epiphany today. You know how we have all talked about going through a honeymoon phase with new equipment, well it happens with recordings for me too. I realized after listening to my audition CD for the 100th time on reference grade gear at the hi-fi shop that what I once thought were reference recordings have their flaws too. And just like new equipment, they don't make themselves known until you have heard them more than a few times.

Oh, but I have to share an experience before I wrap this up. After listening to the Classe gear, which sounded great, the salesman took me to a two channel room with an all Audio Research front-end connected to some Wilson Watt puppies. The AR gear was all tube based. This was my first exposure to tube gear. Even though I have had little respect for Wilson from an engineering standpoint, this was the most amazing system I have ever heard. Holy crap! The soundstage was massive and wrap-around in just stereo, and the sound its self was detailed but not bright or edgy. Man, if I could get that sound in my room, I would have no need for music in surround ala Logic 7. Surprisingly the tube gear didn't sound as euphonic as I thought it would, it just seemed to make the sound a bit smoother and more harmonically complete.

Is the massive soundstage a product of all of the tubes, or was this the famous Wilson wall of sound I have read about?

I suppose this represents a potential turning point for me and I will have to try to find a way to get a tubed preamp into my system.

Wish me luck.
post #1133 of 2196
Tim
Wish you all the best on your new venture. Hope the Classe' gear "melts your butter"!!

Are you waiting on the SSP-800?

Let us know in the amp thread what you think once it's all set up and running.
Mark
post #1134 of 2196
Heh Tim,
watch out for the upgrade bug of the Classe amps if you purchased the 5200.
If you read a lot of the Classe threads those that start with the 5200 on reference speakers either eventually upgrade the fronts to Cams (preferred route by many) or add a 2nd 5200 to share the load.
But, at least this can be done over time.

Anyway glad your getting closer to achieving your goals bud.
Happy listening all.
DT
post #1135 of 2196
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfugh View Post

Tim
Wish you all the best on your new venture. Hope the Classe' gear "melts your butter"!!

Are you waiting on the SSP-800?

Let us know in the amp thread what you think once it's all set up and running.
Mark

Yup, waiting on the SSP-800. If this along with a Classe amp doesn't do it for me, I'll pull in a professional to help.

The sales guy was trying to convince me that I needed a $1400 Transparent digital cable. I'm open minded, but I can't fathom buying a cable that expensive, nor does it make sense that a digital cable can make enough of a difference in sound quality to justify the price.
post #1136 of 2196
Quote:
Originally Posted by DulcetTones View Post

Heh Tim,
watch out for the upgrade bug of the Classe amps if you purchased the 5200.
If you read a lot of the Classe threads those that start with the 5200 on reference speakers either eventually upgrade the fronts to Cams (preferred route by many) or add a 2nd 5200 to share the load.
But, at least this can be done over time.

Anyway glad your getting closer to achieving your goals bud.
Happy listening all.
DT

The 5200 is already above my budget, so it will just have to do for a while. Besides, no space for big monoblocks in my room.
post #1137 of 2196
Tim,
save that cash towards the possible future upgrade of the amp, if concerned about the cables then try moderate priced ones on loan.
On loan is the key part and any good dealer will offer these to help test if current setup is the problem.

Before getting in a pro if your still not happy, please try the CAMs on the fronts just so you can see if there is a difference.
This makes sense to try, even if you do not intend of going that route of purchase.
Although, I accept a lot of dealers have to order in those for demo (even big dealers near me have to order them in).
But, the amount your spending I would not feel bad getting the dealer to do that even if your doing it just to test.

Cheers
DT
post #1138 of 2196
Tim -

I am glad to hear that you have no reservations about starting over, and I am even more pleased that you've already begun that journey. Kudos to you!

I personally really enjoy Audio Research gear. There is a local dealer here that carries them, not to mention I've had some of their gear in my home in the past. To sum it up, If I could have afforded it, I would have kept it. In fact, the best 2-channel system I've ever heard was a pair of Vandersteen 5A's powered by Audio Research 210's, the CD7 source player and the Ref 3 preamp (I think it was the Ref 3). WOW - it sounded amazing!!

Speaking of AR equipment, since you liked the sound so much why not loan the front end over the weekend to see if you can reproduce that same sound in your room? Personally I'd wait on the Classe stuff since the AR gear could be what wowed you.
post #1139 of 2196
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Nuance -

I did something radical today. I took the first step toward "starting over" as you suggested. I have been considering this for a while, so it is funny that you should mention it. So anyway, I went and listened to my recordings on some Classe gear at the local shop during lunch. Well, it turns out that part of the problem is in fact the recording, but the sound was less digital on the Classe. So I made a somewhat rash decision to scrap all of my Lexicon gear to give the Classe stack a shot. Everything is going. The Lex prepro, the Lex player, the Lex amp and the EQ. I'll have to wait for up to 2 months for the prepro, but I'm going to see about finding an amp on Agon.

With that said, I also had an epiphany today. You know how we have all talked about going through a honeymoon phase with new equipment, well it happens with recordings for me too. I realized after listening to my audition CD for the 100th time on reference grade gear at the hi-fi shop that what I once thought were reference recordings have their flaws too. And just like new equipment, they don't make themselves known until you have heard them more than a few times.

Oh, but I have to share an experience before I wrap this up. After listening to the Classe gear, which sounded great, the salesman took me to a two channel room with an all Audio Research front-end connected to some Wilson Watt puppies. The AR gear was all tube based. This was my first exposure to tube gear. Even though I have had little respect for Wilson from an engineering standpoint, this was the most amazing system I have ever heard. Holy crap! The soundstage was massive and wrap-around in just stereo, and the sound its self was detailed but not bright or edgy. Man, if I could get that sound in my room, I would have no need for music in surround ala Logic 7. Surprisingly the tube gear didn't sound as euphonic as I thought it would, it just seemed to make the sound a bit smoother and more harmonically complete.

Is the massive soundstage a product of all of the tubes, or was this the famous Wilson wall of sound I have read about?

I suppose this represents a potential turning point for me and I will have to try to find a way to get a tubed preamp into my system.

Wish me luck.

I must be dreaming... Did Tim finally listen to some tube gear and like it?

Tim, good tube gear will never call attention to itself and say "hey, listen to me. I have tubes inside me." There is bad tube gear just as there is bad solid state gear. Most people would probably never know it has tubes because of all of the detail and accuracy it contains. However, there is is realness to the music that I have never been able to achieve with solid state. I am so thrilled by yoyr findings. We have a lot to talk about

BTW, let me know when I get to say "I told you so"
post #1140 of 2196
Heh Nuance like you say,
some of that AR gear is very very expensive, I would be surprised if it was not their near reference level product with those pups.
The amount I paid for my Chord Electronics is eye watering, and that is only near half-way up the ladder for each manufacturer.

Cheers
DT
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