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Speakerquest (so far...) - Page 54

post #1591 of 2196
10/31/08 at 6:49pm
Thread Starter 
UHF = ultra high frequency? One of these days I am going to get my hearing checked, because I am curious how high I hear (I am sure it is within the "normal" range for a 40yr old male... but even though I don't "hear" those UHFs, I truly believe that we can and do "feel" them...

From Wikipedia:

"Ability to hear ultrasound

The upper frequency limit in humans (approximately 20 kHz) is caused by the middle ear, which acts as a low-pass filter. Ultrasonic hearing can occur if ultrasound is fed directly into the skull bone and reaches the cochlea without passing through the middle ear. Carefully-designed scientific studies have been performed and confirmed what they call the hypersonic effect - that even without consciously hearing it, high-frequency sound can have a measurable effect on the mind.
It is a fact in psychoacoustics that children can hear some high-pitched sounds that older adults cannot hear, because in humans the upper limit pitch of hearing tends to become lower with age. A cell phone company has used this to create ring signals supposedly only able to be heard by younger humans; but many older people claim to be able to hear it, which is likely given the considerable variation of age-related deterioration in the upper hearing threshold.
Some animals – such as dogs, cats, dolphins, bats, and mice – have an upper frequency limit that is greater than that of the human ear and thus can hear ultrasound."
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post #1592 of 2196
10/31/08 at 6:50pm
Thread Starter 
Happy halloween!!!!
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post #1593 of 2196
10/31/08 at 7:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by funkmonkey View Post

UHF = ultra high frequency? One of these days I am going to get my hearing checked, because I am curious how high I hear (I am sure it is within the "normal" range for a 40yr old male... but even though I don't "hear" those UHFs, I truly believe that we can and do "feel" them...

From Wikipedia:

"Ability to hear ultrasound

The upper frequency limit in humans (approximately 20 kHz) is caused by the middle ear, which acts as a low-pass filter. Ultrasonic hearing can occur if ultrasound is fed directly into the skull bone and reaches the cochlea without passing through the middle ear. Carefully-designed scientific studies have been performed and confirmed what they call the hypersonic effect - that even without consciously hearing it, high-frequency sound can have a measurable effect on the mind.
It is a fact in psychoacoustics that children can hear some high-pitched sounds that older adults cannot hear, because in humans the upper limit pitch of hearing tends to become lower with age. A cell phone company has used this to create ring signals supposedly only able to be heard by younger humans; but many older people claim to be able to hear it, which is likely given the considerable variation of age-related deterioration in the upper hearing threshold.
Some animals - such as dogs, cats, dolphins, bats, and mice - have an upper frequency limit that is greater than that of the human ear and thus can hear ultrasound."

I am with you on this one, funkmonkey. I too believe the human body can somehow perceive the ultra high frequencies. Perhaps this is part of the reason a well implemented ribbon tweeter just sounds better even though we can't really hear above 20Khz. Hmm...
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post #1594 of 2196
10/31/08 at 8:32pm
I thought UHF had to do with Weird Al
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post #1595 of 2196
10/31/08 at 8:46pm
OK, I can buy into the ability for humans to "feel" UHFs, but unless you are listening to SACD or DVDA with a 96KHz or 192KHz sampling rate, there's nothing on the recording to hear / feel. And this also depends on the recording studio using mics that can capture sound above 20KHz. Very few of even the best mics have response above 20KHz and you'd be lucky to get 30KHz.

But the biggest factor for me is that most of what I listen to is on CD, which has a brick-wall filter at 22KHz.
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post #1596 of 2196
11/1/08 at 6:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post


But the biggest factor for me is that most of what I listen to is on CD, which has a brick-wall filter at 22KHz.

You said your hearing stops at 16KHz, but who's to say your body can't perceive all the way up to that 22KHz? Es posible.
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post #1597 of 2196
11/1/08 at 9:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

You said your hearing stops at 16KHz, but who's to say your body can't perceive all the way up to that 22KHz? Es posible.

Fair enough, but the debate started with the mention of one of the WB speakers using the Murata Super Tweeter, which I don't see getting a lot of use with most recordings.
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post #1598 of 2196
11/1/08 at 12:14pm
Doesnt every conversation lately start with WB speakers??
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post #1599 of 2196
11/1/08 at 1:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Fair enough, but the debate started with the mention of one of the WB speakers using the Murata Super Tweeter, which I don't see getting a lot of use with most recordings.

Unfortunately probably not. Hopefully a recording standard will be implemented soon; one that goes above 22KHz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rydenfan View Post

Doesnt every conversation lately start with WB speakers??

LOL!
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post #1600 of 2196
11/1/08 at 1:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Unfortunately probably not. Hopefully a recording standard will be implemented soon; one that goes above 22KHz.

LOL!

Like, vinyl records?
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post #1601 of 2196
11/1/08 at 2:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by loopguru View Post

Like, vinyl records?

But something digital that doesn't hiss and pop.
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post #1602 of 2196
11/1/08 at 2:36pm
Thread Starter 
How high does vinyl go??? I know that they have a presence that is undeniable, yet very hard for me to describe. I have my old turntable sitting in my parents basement on top of a stack of LPs (many are 80's hair bands like Ratt, Cinderella, Krokus) but some of them would exhibit a wide(r) dynamic range (ELO, Pink Floyd... and several Jazz LPs that I snagged from my grandparents). I have often thought about shipping them out here and setting it up, but my wife would freak if I had stacks of LPs around on top of all the CD's...
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post #1603 of 2196
11/1/08 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rydenfan View Post

Doesnt every conversation lately start with WB speakers??

Speaking of WB, mine left the UK yesterday! Should have them by the end of next week.
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post #1604 of 2196
11/1/08 at 3:59pm
Tim - Sweet!

Funk - You should not have stacks of CDs for much longer. Get your FLAC filing all finished up, put those CDs of yours in a cool dry storage spot and get into vinyl. Vinyl is, IMO, just going to increase in popularity. Amazon even sells it now. I personally think my CD buying days are through. There are more lossless digital options opening by the day and everything else I want should be available on LP now if not very very soon, so my need for a physical item can be sated through a big chunk of vinyl.

I am going to hook up an old TT some time this week and start trying to figure out how much use I would get out of one - I cannot deny I might be too lazy to listen to LPs.

-Michael
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post #1605 of 2196
11/2/08 at 11:40am
From what I've read, a theoretical range of 8Hz to 50kHz

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr...0&openfrom&3&4

Quote:
Originally Posted by funkmonkey View Post

How high does vinyl go??? I know that they have a presence that is undeniable, yet very hard for me to describe. I have my old turntable sitting in my parents basement on top of a stack of LPs (many are 80's hair bands like Ratt, Cinderella, Krokus) but some of them would exhibit a wide(r) dynamic range (ELO, Pink Floyd... and several Jazz LPs that I snagged from my grandparents). I have often thought about shipping them out here and setting it up, but my wife would freak if I had stacks of LPs around on top of all the CD's...
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post #1606 of 2196
11/2/08 at 12:13pm
Thread Starter 
Cool- thanks for the info loop. Now I am wondering if CD's are capable of recording a larger range of frequencies (I guess they are, i.e. SACD), and why they are "brick-walled" at 22-kHz... I would imagine that someone decided for us that that information was erroneous and they could get longer play times if they clipped it there. How low do redbook CD's go?

I may have to pick up some SACDs while they are still available... Though getting back into vinyl would mean getting some more new gear! (wait a minute, I can't afford that for a while... )
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post #1607 of 2196
11/2/08 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by loopguru View Post

From what I've read, a theoretical range of 8Hz to 50kHz

In theory. Few cartridges go to 50KHz and few cartridge/arm combos are stable down to 8Hz. Moreover, most LPs are mastered with reduced and/or mono low LF to reduce tracking problems and preserve space on the LP.

In practice, you generally get wider FR from CDs.

BTW, "brickwalled" at 22KHz is not a big problem depending on the equipment since few, if any, of us can hear above 20KHz.
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post #1608 of 2196
11/3/08 at 11:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Speaking of WB, mine left the UK yesterday! Should have them by the end of next week.

I cant wait until you get them,its gonna be extremely interresting,to see if your gonna be happy with them,your track record with some formidable speakers have been pretty rocky.
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post #1609 of 2196
11/3/08 at 11:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tawaun da bomb View Post

i cant wait until you get them,its gonna be extremely interresting,to see if your gonna be happy with them,your track record with some formidable speakers have been pretty rocky.:d

+1
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post #1610 of 2196
11/3/08 at 12:03pm
Oh...and by the way I'll pics this weekend my wife has to send the digital camera back from Maryland,didnt even know that she had it.
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post #1611 of 2196
11/3/08 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

You said your hearing stops at 16KHz, but who's to say your body can't perceive all the way up to that 22KHz? Es posible.

I've done thousands of signal sweeps, and I can say without doubt neither my ears nor body is perceiving anything above about 16khz.

However, and this is a big one, the top end rolloff of a tweeter well beyond audible range impacts it's phase response well into audible range. So ultrasonic performance absolutely is important, but not in a way you might think.
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post #1612 of 2196
11/3/08 at 1:51pm
Thread Starter 
Hey Ryan... good to see you around these parts. I saw your thread over at Audioholics, that documented the build, and I think your speakers look great! (and someone over there left some particularly nasty feedback for me for saying so... didn't quite understand why ) I would love to hear them someday.

...So are you saying that the ultrasonics need to be present to maintain proper phase, or that they have an adverse effect? How do they affect the phasing when not present (or rolled off)? I am sure that is a very complicated question to answer but it would help to explain why I (and a few others around here) tend to like a ribbon, or lightweight metallic dome tweeter that is capable of higher freq. response.

Does all this become moot if there are no ultrasonics on the source material (CDs vs. LPs)?
Would you mind expanding on your statement a bit?
Thanks.
Greg
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post #1613 of 2196
11/3/08 at 2:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by funkmonkey View Post

Hey Ryan... good to see you around these parts. I saw your thread over at Audioholics, that documented the build, and I think your speakers look great! (and someone over there left some particularly nasty feedback for me for saying so... didn't quite understand why ) I would love to hear them someday.

...So are you saying that the ultrasonics need to be present to maintain proper phase, or that they have an adverse effect? How do they affect the phasing when not present (or rolled off)? I am sure that is a very complicated question to answer but it would help to explain why I (and a few others around here) tend to like a ribbon, or lightweight metallic dome tweeter that is capable of higher freq. response.

Does all this become moot if there are no ultrasonics on the source material (CDs vs. LPs)?
Would you mind expanding on your statement a bit?

Hey Greg, yea there are a few on audioholics (you can probably guess who) that seem threatened by my presence, and are determined to chase me away. I think it's funny really, ready their negative rep comments like "your company sells BS", and "get lost tool". Haha, I like cinnamon chicklets better than spearmint anyway

The more flat and extended a tweeters ultrasonic response is, the more 'linear' it's phase response will be well below that range. Whether that's anything worth considering in design or purchase decisions is debatable, I don't have the answer. I'll try and find some papers that explain this better, I'd rather not expand beyond that because I might swallow my own words. I believe John K's paper here might shed some light on the topic

http://www.geocities.com/kreskovs/Phase-B.html

That's only talking about a raw driver, once a crossover network is inserted the phase is manipulated.

And whether there's source material exciting those ultrasonics or not, the phase response is the same. So no, having ultrasonics in the source is inconsequential as far as what we're talking about in this regard.
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post #1614 of 2196
11/3/08 at 2:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawaun da bomb View Post

I cant wait until you get them,its gonna be extremely interresting,to see if your gonna be happy with them,your track record with some formidable speakers have been pretty rocky.

Yeah, it will be interesting for sure. The odds certainly aren't in my favor.

Let me just say that I will have to restrain myself from gushing over them at the start, since there is a strong chance that I could do a complete 180 days or weeks later.
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post #1615 of 2196
11/3/08 at 4:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Yeah, it will be interesting for sure. The odds certainly aren't in my favor.

Let me just say that I will have to restrain myself from gushing over them at the start, since there is a strong chance that I could do a complete 180 days or weeks later.

Tim let me go thru this list that I know of:
Revel Studio2
Dyanaudio Sapphire
Focal Electra 1037Be
Paradigm Signiture S8
Monitor Audio Platinum PL300
Monitor Audio Gold GS60
Aeriel Acoustics 7b

I dont know,if i missed any but thats a dream list for most guys Hell i dont even know if Kal has had the privelege to listen to all these fine choices in his room before.All I can say on the real tip Tim,just have fun,and use what you learned from those other speaker experiances I hope this really works out for you,i know a lot of people would kill just to have 1 of those speakers off of that list consider yourself very blessed to be able to make those kind of choices or have those kind of choices,look at all these guys on here thats never even owned a speaker that costs $1k no pun intended,but.....ahhh.....just enjoy the music!
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post #1616 of 2196
11/3/08 at 5:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawaun da bomb View Post

Tim let me go thru this list that I know of:
Revel Studio2
Dyanaudio Sapphire
Focal Electra 1037Be
Paradigm Signiture S8
Monitor Audio Platinum PL300
Monitor Audio Gold GS60
Aeriel Acoustics 7b

I dont know,if i missed any but thats a dream list for most guys Hell i dont even know if Kal has had the privelege to listen to all these fine choices in his room before.All I can say on the real tip Tim,just have fun,and use what you learned from those other speaker experiances I hope this really works out for you,i know a lot of people would kill just to have 1 of those speakers off of that list consider yourself very blessed to be able to make those kind of choices or have those kind of choices,look at all these guys on here thats never even owned a speaker that costs $1k no pun intended,but.....ahhh.....just enjoy the music!

Yeah, I guess I'm one picky MFer!

You can add:
KEF Reference 203 V1
Martin Logan Aeoni
Vienna Acoustics Beetohven
Dynaudio S3.4 and 5.4 (in home audition, not owned)

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post #1617 of 2196
11/3/08 at 5:41pm
Thread Starter 
Anyone heard these yet????

Magico Ultimate
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post #1618 of 2196
11/3/08 at 5:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by funkmonkey View Post

Anyone heard these yet????

Magico Ultimate

Holy trapezoids Batman! I bet those will fill the room with sound nicely.
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post #1619 of 2196
11/3/08 at 5:55pm
I guess I could search through the forum, looking for where you posted about the Beethoven's, or, if you're feeling generous, and can remember, what were your impressions?

Were these a Linkwitz designed model?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Yeah, I guess I'm one picky MFer!

You can add:
..
Vienna Acoustics Beetohven
..

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post #1620 of 2196
11/3/08 at 6:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboFC3S View Post

I've done thousands of signal sweeps, and I can say without doubt neither my ears nor body is perceiving anything above about 16khz.

However, and this is a big one, the top end rolloff of a tweeter well beyond audible range impacts it's phase response well into audible range. So ultrasonic performance absolutely is important, but not in a way you might think.

Interesting. If you don't mind, PM me about this. I'd like to learn more.
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