Speakerquest (so far...) - Page 33

Sounds good, I'll definitely give those a listen.

Now the MW; with the money I spent on the DAC my wife would shoot me if I then went and bought the transport.

I think I'm going to actually write down my upgrade plan and try and stick to it. I can live with the changes to the CD player with the DAC. Then I'll hear your MW stuff...and all my plans will go out the window again! Ha!

I got an e-mail from him today. I was asking a few questions about build time, surrounds, etc.; and I'll let him speak about them, but they do sound promising and "less distortion" - his words - than the originals...

I may have missed this in reading this thread so quickly, but what is the opinion regarding the Klipsch RF83's and the Paradigm Signature line? Thanks!

Funk -

I stumbled across this comparison of the midrange quality of the HT3's to the new Esoteric MG-20's buried in a review of the MG-20's.

http://www.ultraaudio.com/equipment/esoteric_mg20.htm

Since there are no formal reviews of the Salk's I thought you would be interested in the brief comments made in this review.

I haven't heard the Klipsch, but the Sigs are very good speakers. Balanced, detailed, a nice broad soundstage and excellent dynamic capability. But I would stick with the S6 or S8's. The dedicated midrange driver brings a level of resolution and transparency not found in the stand mount models.

Bingo - very impressive!

Yes, the reviewer did seem to focus on the supposed metallic sound of the SEAS midrange, but he also started that sentence with a compliment on how "massively detailed" the Salk's were. Personally, I think that when someone sees (not SEAS ) a metal driver, be it a tweeter or a midrange, they expect it to sound metallic. Half the time I think they are just hearing what they expect to hear, as I have heard soft dome tweeters that would make your ears bleed and metal domes that were as smooth as silk.

I've never heard the speaker that was being tested in that review, so I can't say much about his comparison. But strictly as a factual matter, the breakup mode on the W18 is not slightly above 3 kHz. It's in the 4.7-5 kHz range, and is about 30 dB down due to the trap circuit in the HT3's mid crossover.

What is a trap circuit? Similar to a notch filter?

Right--it's just an rlc network. In this case, all the components are in series, but it shunts to ground. The magnesium driver responds very well to it, because the breakup is a single peak--aluminum drivers tend to break up raggedly over a wider range, so they're often harder to deal with.

Good point. I looked at the FR graph of the W18 on the SEAS website and you're are right, there is just one resonance as opposed to series of resonances I've seen in most aluminum drivers. Though it does seem like the resoance in the W18 is a whopper when untamed.

So what do you know about the behavior of titanium?

I was looking at the stereophile graphs of the Revel Salon2 and I see no evidence of any resonances in their titanium drivers. Is this even possible with a metal driver? I thought they all rang at some point.


Fig.3 Revel Ultima Salon2, nearfield responses of port (black), woofers (green), lower-midrange unit (red), and upper midrange unit (blue), all plotted in the ratios of the square roots of their radiating areas.

"So what do you know about the behavior of titanium?"

The only titanium driver I've worked with is the 4" Visaton unit used in the V3. It had a generally rising response with two moderate peaks at
7k and 10k. That was easy to deal with given how high up they were.

"I was looking at the stereophile graphs of the Revel Salon2 and I see no evidence of any resonances in their titanium drivers. Is this even possible with a metal driver? I thought they all rang at some point."

Well, I'm sure they do. But the graph shows the response with the crossovers in place, and the upper limit on the graph is 1 kHz. So if the breakup modes are above 1k, the crossover would have the response so far down in the drivers' operating ranges that you wouldn't see any artifacts.

Thanks for the insight. I know that the graph cuts off the response at 1KHz, but the red line shows the full response of the lower midrange driver. While it looks a little ragged at the top of it's range, I don't see even a hint of a resonance being suppressed. But then, the resonance may just be out of the range of this driver and as you said the crossover is in place.

I'm not sure what's going on with the lower midrange. It transitions very sharply from a 4th order to a much higher order roll off, which probably means that a notch filter is kicking in with a vengance. I wouldn't surprised if there's a little increase in the response above 1k. But I don't have any doubt that the crossover designer (I guess it was Kevin) knew what he was doing. I would certainly like to hear those speakers.

Always good to have your perspective on these things. The response does appear to hit a brick wall at around 750Hz. Is that what you are referring to? Where the response pretty much becomes a veritical line?

Yup. I'm pretty sure that's where the circuit is kicking in. But since it will introduce a notch, there may be additional output higher up where we can't see it.

Gotcha. I like having you around. It makes it much quicker for me to grasp the concepts at play in speaker design than reading on my own does.

A lot of you listed your speakers (past, present, and on order). I am surprised that I didn't see anyone with 3 identical front speakers, such as 3 Rocket 850s, or 3 Rocket RSC200, or 3 SongTowers. Are the center channel speakers from these manufacturers so superior that they can compete with their floor-standing ones?

The only way to accomplish this would be to have a dedicated room with a front PJ and an acoustically transparent screen. That is not the setup people in this thread tend to have and thus a center channel is used. I am not sure why you would be surprised? as three identical floor standers across the front is certainly way in the minority of most people's setups.

"I agree. It is very nice having both of you guys around!"

You're more than welcome. I hope I'm not spreading too much misinformation (though I'm sure there's some). This is a great thread--no pointless insults bouncing around and missing the point--just people interested in speakers.

Your mother is a hamster and your father smells of elderberries. Ok, now the thread is complete. All joking aside, my education behind the actual workings of a speaker and how it goes about sounding the way it does - or doesn't - can almost entirely be attributed to threads like this and Nuance's "perfect" thread. Along with some key posts made by you on some other forums. Thanks for your willingness to explain your part of the craft.... even if you have a hamster mom.

-Michael

Umm, like I don't see any pics attached to that post. What's up with that?

I headed to Miami yesterday and on the way back to Orlando I stopped in Ft Lauderdale and was able to audition a few speakers on my list. Pure Audio caters to a rather rich crowd (professional athletes) and had several outstanding rooms available. Two audio only, one combined audio/HT and a dedicated HT that was as good as some theaters I've been to if not better. I avoided the dedicated HT room!

Music

More of the same with some added Metallica, Pink Floyd and a Gospel group that had some deep bass passages (wish I could remember the album/name of the group).

Electronics

The combined audio/HT room had an Anthem D2/P5 setup with a Panansonic BD as source. The audio rooms all had T+A electronics; A1530 amp, P1230R pre, and the Music Player - FLAC through an Apple server. The T+A gear tends to the warm side and the transport is rather nice.

T+A Criterion TL series TS 200

($8K MSRP) Played through the Anthem gear

Nice cabinets in walnut, solid construction. I agree with Funkmonkey and do not care for the grill at the bottom.

Most are aware of Funk's audition of the TS 300. I agree with everything he said with one caveat. This speaker is extremely fatiguing to me. The highs were harsh and created discomfort to my ears. The hairs stood up and I felt a ringing sensation in my inner ear.

I tried to move around a bit and see if that helped, but I couldn't find any location to just listen. The room is professionally treated equally to all other rooms and I didn't experience this affect with any other speaker. Gustavo said this was the hardest speaker to setup for audio he had ever had.

We shifted to the HT setup with JL F113 subs and magically it was awesome for movies?

Maybe it's Anthem gear, or the speaker is perfect for movies?? I didn't like it. Sorry Funk.

Dynaudio Sapphire

You know the price. Played through T+A setup.

Gorgeous speaker. Incredible cabinets in Mocha. I could live with this look forever.

Rydenfan and Hifisponge have extensively auditioned this speaker here. I agree with their assessments. Great for Jazz and vocals, and with instruments specifically the piano. One of the best with instrumentals I've heard. I didn't care for it with Rock.

There was something missing with separation of vocals and instruments in Pink Floyd's The Wall. It wasn't muddy, just not as clear as I would like.

I like this speaker and will get a 2nd audition this Thursday. I don't know if the price to performance ratio is worth it???

Avalon Acoustics Ascendant

($9,750 MSRP) Played through T+A setup.

Incredible cabinets in Ash, he also had Cherry. Solid as a rock with veneers and finish equal to the Salk HT-3. I like the angular look, it's differences from the norm make it very attractive to me. My wife hates the look!

This is a natural, musical and warm sounding speaker. In a good way! Vocals are equal to the best I've heard (Salk HT-3). The separation between voices is incredible. On Pink Floyd's The Wall, you're able to pick out the kids voices.

Sound staging, clarity and imaging are as good as the Salk's if not better. The Ascendants completely disappear and you are surrounded by the music. Acoustic and electric guitar are spot on. The piano on this speaker equals the Salk and Sapphire.

I found the Ascendant seamless from the highs to the midbass. It does lack the lower bass punch of the Salk HT-3 and Sapphire.

This was the winner of the day!!! Incredible speaker worthy of a listen.

I've got a ways to go, but as of now the top two (in order) are the Salk HT-3 and the Avalon Ascendant. If the Ascendant had the lower bass punch of the HT-3??? Maybe the Avalon Indra$$$$$

More to come
Mark

Great writeup, Mark!!

Wait till you hear Pink Floyd on the Revels As you know it was Another Brick in the Wall Pt.2 that truly defined the Studios versus the Sapphires for me.

I look forward to meeting you on Thursday.

That's one of the reasons I had Gustavo pick that album/track!! Thanks

Definitely looking forward to Thursday

Sounds like fun. Your comparisons to the Salk's is what I always do as my reference speaker and that's why I still own them. Hard to beat them for the money. Come on HTX!!!