best buy offers hdtv calibration: how does it rate (details inside) - Page 2

shano0603 you might as well just delete your user name & re sign up under a different name for a fresh start as everyone who has read your post has already added you to their block list.

I have no time for your Best Buy/Monster spam

Welcome to the block list.

There is some truth in this, at least for a plasma display.

The factory/showroom settings tend toward what some call torch level. The brighter the display the more power consumed (and the more waste heat generated) and a calibrated display will almost certainly be set to a lower level. Of course the user could do that much without any ISF training. There are many threads about this in the display forums.

Greetings

It should be noted that calibration is not about saving energy. You want to save energy ... turn the TV off and go ride a bike.

If it ends up saving energy ... it is simply a fortunate happenstance / by product. There is no assurance of such a thing happening anyway because it has everything to do with what the owners do to the TV themselves and the viewing environment where the TV is placed and when most of the viewing takes place.

Regards

If you have a plasma or CRT, then your consumed power will also vary with content. You'd save energy by surfing AVS with a dark background rather than the new white background. As AVS can have thousands of eyeballs looking at it at any given moment, the miniscule (but non-zero) energy saving would compound to larger miniscule energy savings.

There is a black background version of google using this notion that has an energy savings counter on it. Presently is shows 713,000 W/hrs of savings globally.

http://www.blackle.com/about/

Dave

I bow to an expert however, but no one said that energy savings was the goal of calibration. And your point about changes made by the end user is true of all settings, but that is not an argument against calibration.

I would rather that sales staff make claims that are at least possibly true based on the science involved, rather than the absurd and fantastic claims that are made about interconnects and power cleaners, for example.

By the way I ride a bike and use the AVS dark background--I've done my bit to combat global warming.
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Holy Crap Best Buy now uses Jedi Mind Tricks on their employees

If you or anyone else has had this performed by Best Buy, out of more than idle curiosity, do you happen to know what calibration devices and software they use to come up with the $7000 figure.

I imagine it is standardized throughout the Best Buy Chaiin and is most likely one of the 3 Sencore Models, but would be curious as to exactly what they are using.


Same Question as you actually had the calibration done. Was it a circular "pod" that sat on the TV or was it a device that was most likely rectangular on a tripod in front of the TV?

All ISF Techs for Best Buy use either the Sencore CP3 and CP4 Pods, or the new CP5. Along with VP40* series generators and an array of calibration discs.

Had BB calibration done today on my Panny Plasma. This is in the Kansas City Area (Overland Park). He did any excellent job and did go into the service menu. He corrected the red push on the set that I was unable to do after much reading and attempts with the DVE Blu Ray disc. Also, the gray level settings are now very close to perfect. Next set I get I will certainly use them.

I've been following HD technologies for years and just wrapped up a short stint working at Best Buy in between jobs. I can tell you that there is pressure from supervisors and management to try selling the more expensive cables because there are higher profit margins.

What you might be disappointed to know is that most of the Home Theater department employees truly believe the rubbish that's out there about the "picture quality" difference between Monster and other manufacturers' cables.

Just so it makes you feel a bit better, when I sold HDMI cables I was very open and honest with customers. I told them that for fairly short distances, any brand of cable would be fine because the signal is all 1s and 0s anyway. I did point out that the higher the cost the better the build quality. But most customers were quick to point out -- and I'd agree that if you set up your home theater once and leave it that build quality doesn't have to be that great.

I read what you are saying, and it's not the first positive thing about BB cal jobs I've read.
But saying you will 'certainly' use them next time really has me wondering.

I think on the whole, they can not afford to screw anything up, but I've read where it's happened. And the proficiency and experience of the individual doing the work is always going to be a question.

Bottom Line: Who do you want in your home repairing or adjusting your electronics (assuming both had the same training)?

1) Somebody sent over from Best Buy or other 'GeekSqaud'.

2) Someone with years of experience and personal recommendations and referrals?

It's an easy choice for me.

Dude...you drank the BB koolaid. Shame on you for believing the retail marketing hype. Shameful.

I am sure there are some good people working for BB and some bad ones. Same goes for calibrators whether they work for BB or themselves.

I for one would be skeptical of a plasma calibrated with pods these days, but if the end customer is happy with the result, who am I to tell him what he is missing (especially having not seen the set or the job).

Just like most things in life, the buyer needs to do his homework. If he/she/it doesn't, then no telling what they will get. The best thing for ISF/THX Calibrators (imo) is an informed consumer. If a calibrator will not answer your questions or gets upset at you asking questions prior to calibration (as some well known ISF calibrators on AVS have been known to do), better to move on.

On a related note...I can't even believe BB (or any brick and mortar) is still doing strong business with online shops pretty much destroying their pricing. I got a 37" 1080p LCD for about $600 less online (free shipping and no tax, as well) then what BB or CC could come close to for the same model. And I don't even have to mention cables and accessories.

That's why you ask for referrals or recommendations.

I don't really care either, but calling a pod to do the work again based on one tech and one time, is really flipping a coin IMO. I guess if you could request a specific tech you know is good might help.

I always go with the independent contractor. Anybody with that kind of smarts and know-how to run his own business will likely have a good following of previous customers, and he is willing to let you call for referrals. No list, no job.

There's no magic involved here, it's just another service. Choose wisely.

HDMI is a digital solution. 1's and 0's. With digital, there is no degredation of signal like there is with analog. You either get it or you don't. If you've ever had a bad hdmi cable, you know what I'm talking about. A $10 cable you can get from monoprice will give you the exact same quality picture as a $100 cable you get at BB. Don't let anyone tell you any different. And if you don't believe me, just do a quick search and you'll find plenty of articles on this subject to back me up.

Also, I'm a computer engineer in my day job, so I know a little about 1's and 0's. ;-)

You'd think so, considering it makes logical sense, but this recent Audioholics shoot-out proved otherwise. Their testing methodology and equipment sure seem on the level.

http://www.audioholics.com/education...ble%20Shootout

This has been an enlightening post. I'll stick with the $30 AVIA and DVE BR discs I own and do my own calibrations.

The point of the review was to not to purport the idea that some HDMI cables pass a "better" picture than others. What it did illustrate is that once a cable's capabilities are exceeded, it becomes painfully apparent in the form of major data loss or complete picture loss. Basically, if a cable works as advertised, you'll see the whole picture bit for bit - if not, the picture will be unwatchable. There's no middle ground.

This is a completely different idea than the one pushed by some of the more "over-marketed" cable manufacturers - that somehow a better HDMI cable will pass a sharper, more saturated, or more 3D picture. True, one should pick a cable designed and engineered for the purpose which it is intended, but that hardly means that you're not getting all you can from your system if you didn't pay out the nose for ridiculously overpriced HDMI cables.

My point was that the "all-or-nothing" view does not hold out when testing longer runs. Signal degradation CAN exist in longer runs for HDMI, regardless of it being a digital signal, and that doesn't mean the picture will just disappear. But since causing that degradation requires pushing the cable to extreme lengths, a user is less likely to notice in most cases. I know I might be splitting hairs here, but this notion that the signal is either perfect or simply disappears completely isn't true in all cases, as is evident in their testing. You can see the snow on the Die Hard sample image they posted and I've listened to an interview with Clint Deboer where he states that yes, in fact, a signal delivered via HDMI can show degradation but still be watchable. It happened in their testing.

I agree with you point Hog Pilot, I might just be stating it differently. If so, I apologize.

I was surfing through the avs forums after a long time away, and just had to respond to this, and other similar posts.
HDMI is a digital solution, yes, but thinking it suffers no degradation if there is a picture is absolutely incorrect.
Just like Ethernet, which uses Differential Manchester Encoding, the cable medium actually carries an encoded signal. That is, dips and peaks in the electrical signal at a set oscillation. However, these are more of what you would call a logical dip and peak, with the actual signal actually having quite a bit of sloping and other non-uniform structures to the signal. The encoding and decoder then use a particular tolerance level for judging the main underlying signal.
Thing is, wires are not made of super conductive material (unless you live in liquid Nitrogen ), so they suffer from resistance. Even more, they still suffer from cross-talk. Examining the HDMI cable structure, it seems they have attempted to minimize cross-talk, but outside influences can still affect them. The result? Periodic fluctuations in the signal along with, at times, incorrect decoding of the signal if the resistance of the wires, over a certain distance, start to decrease the difference between the peaks and dips in the encoded signal.
The signal may be digital, but it still uses electricity to carry the signal between sources. If the signal gets degraded, like mentioned above, you'll still get a picture (assuming the signal degradation doesn't mess with the security handshaking) but it could very well affect the information on the pixel level. This may represent itself in incorrect color representation, flickering pixels...etc, while still receiving a full image. Some of which, i have experienced personally.

Okay, I see where you're coming from - yes, I agree, the fact that HDMI is a digital transmission medium doesn't make it 100% or 0%.

Just to clarify, when I said "unwatchable" I meant any of the major picture degradation like the kind that the reviewer noted - sparkles, snow, the lower half of the picture lighter than the upper half, etc. Sure, you can still see what's going on, but I wouldn't find that acceptable for watching and enjoying a movie.

The ignorance on this board is beyond comprehension. Please do not post false information.

First of all, on the monster cables. You pay extra for better shielding, higher bandwidth (in most cases), better color depth, and a lifetime guarantee on all their cables. Most other HDMI's you're looking at are about 3mbps, 4-bit color, and 90 days to a year on the warranty, not to mention very little shielding. Those things are what make the monster cables more expensive and yes, depending on the device hooked up to the cable, you may or may not see a difference. Of course there are some cables out there that offer these things too, but their price is right up there with the monster cables.

Secondly, on calibrations. Calibrations are something that WILL benefit you in the long run. Best Buy employees are ISF certified. The reason they are able to come out to the home and adjust your tv's without the manufacturers getting pissed is because:

1) Best Buy is the #1 electronic retail store in the U.S. so it's pretty smart for the manufacturers to allow them to calibrate their tv's since Best Buy makes them so much money.
2) Best Buy calibrators are ISF certified and their work is insured, so if anything happens to the TV, Best Buy will replace it for you, which just puts more money in the manufacturers pockets.


The calibration service has been proven to work. First Glimpse magazine has recently published an article on the importance of calibrations on TV's. IT IS NOT NEEDED. The calibration is entirely up to you, but it will improve the picture by removing some of the digitizing you see around the edges, the colors are adjusted so that the TV looks good in your particular viewing environment, you save money on your electrical bill every month, the TV WILL last longer by about 3-5 years, and yes, if you have ever had either a plasma or LCD TV, these things are like heaters and it will lower the temperature on the TV by about 10 degrees F. They do access the service menu, but they have been trained on how to adjust the settings in that menu. There's a reason why the manufacturers don't allow the owners themselves to have open access to this menu, because chances are YOU WILL BREAK THE TV.

The eye strain claim is also true. Try watching your TV in a room at night with no lights on, especially from 10 feet or less away. If you're close to the tv and viewiing it with no lights on, the TV will put strain on your eyes and cause them burn mildly and in some cases they will start to water. The calibration reduces this strain so when you are viewing the TV at night and trying to create a real Home Theater environment, you will be able to watch it from start to finish without blinking your eyes every half a second.

Go into a Best Buy (preferably Magnolia) and have an associate give you a demo on the calibration. Make sure to ask in advance if they are knowledgable around the calibration service so as not to get false information. See for yourself how a calibration will benefit you and based on the results, make your own decision as to whether or not it's worth it.

Those are potential byproducts of having your display calibrated. And I mean POTENTIAL. It is not the reason you get a television calibrated. If you want to save money on your electric bill you can start by turning off some lights. You calibrate a set to achieve accurate and stunning results. Also sounds like someone has drank some standard Koolaid. I have yet to see published studies regarding sets lasting longer by 3-5 years. So let you ask you a question. What is the standard lifespan for a television and if that lifespan is not increased by at least 3 years will BB give me a refund? I'm not totally disagreeing with you, i'm just saying those are very bold statements to make.

Ok, Mr. Obviously A Best Buy Employee,

First, there's no reason to get inflamatory just because you've bought into marketing hype.

Second, the only reason that Monster cable is more expensive is because you're paying for the name. Unless you're talking about a 50' plus HDMI run, you are not going to see any degredation in the signal between a Monster cable or a $10 cable from Monoprice. This has been scientifically tested many times. So long as the information from one end of the cable to the other end stays the same, you see the exact same picture.

I have both Monoprice and Big Box cables in my setup (before I knew of Monoprice) and I can assure you, there is no difference whatsoever between them.

The "Most other HDMI's you're looking at are about 3mbps, 4-bit color" is completely wrong. HDMI cables have a standard and certification for a reason. You get the same performance from an HDMI 1.3b ceritified cable from Monoprice as you do an HDMI 1.3b certified cable from Monster plain and simple.

If you are right and I am wrong, show me independant testing that proves otherwise. And by independant, I mean testing that wasn't sponsered or done by BB or Monster. I've definitely seen plenty of testing results that support my side of the argument.

first of all, if I worked for Best Buy I would simply say buy the calibration. Instead I recommend doing what is best for you.

I do agree to some extent it is the Monster name. But several manufacturers do that. Sony is probably the most over-priced manufacturer out there, but they still make a good product the same as monster.

Secondly, I didn't say anything about cable length. That's just common knowledge. So I don't see how that's relevant to my post.

Depending on the device you are hooking up, you may or may not see a difference. Difference devices are capable of faster transfer rates than others and that's where you may want to spring for the extra bandwidth.

And the fact that you say most HDMI cables have a standard is ridiculous. Go out and look at the packaging on an HDMI cable. The $10 cables won't even mention what kind of speeds they're capable of and the ones that are up in the $70-80 will display it in big bold print. There isn't a standard. And all it means when a cable is 1.3B certified is that it has met the testing standards. It doesn't have anything to do with the overall performance of the cable.

And where are these "scientific studies" you're talking about.

I should have said "on average." The average LCD/Plasma TV lasts 12-14 years (or 60,000 hours). Chances are BB will not give you a refund if your TV does not last 15 years minimum because there are other factors to take into account. Manufacturer defects, wear and tear, how much the TV is actually being used, other damages that may occur. And yes, if you want to save money, turn off some lights. But if you want to have a fantastic looking TV, get a calibration.

Here are a few:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDw2ZSDzlMw

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-11276_7....html?tag=lnav

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/hdmi-cabl...t-2-268788.php

http://www.pcworld.com/article/12177...able_game.html

I can post many more if you'd like. :-)

Okay so now we're determining HDMI standards based on what the packaging says
I'm afraid you are showing your lack of knowledge regarding HDMI standards. One of the testing standards you mention for HDMI certification is throughput. See below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#HD...y_Disc_players

Alright,
#1) Best Buy calibration technicians DO go into the service menu to make adjustments to the picture, TRUST ME! I work at Best Buy (unfortunately), and I've seen TV's calibrated in my store. They do things that you CANNOT do in the TV menu.

#2) Calibration doesn't save you that much $$$ over the course of a year. An average annual savings of maybe $30 on a plasma if you watch an average of 6 1/2 hours a day. This means that calibration will pay for itself over the course of about 10 years.

#3) Calibration significantly cuts down the amount of heat that is produced by plasma screens. This will help the TV last longer and reduce the risk of blown pixels. LCD's don't generate much heat to begin with so it makes little difference.

#4) You CAN calibrate the TV yourself TO A CERTAIN POINT. Go to CNET.com and follow their basic calibration instructions. Honestly, you can get the TV about 80% calibrated if you have a sharp eye. The color levels are still going to be somewhat inaccurate and you won't see quite as much detail in dark areas, but considering you didn't spend $300 to do it... you be the judge.

If you really strive for perfect detail, then it might be worth getting your TV calibrated. If you just like to casually watch TV and don't care as much if it's perfect, then by all means, save yourself $300 and visit CNET.com.

One of the idiots at a Magnolia told me...and I kid you not.....that front projectors cannot produce real HD because the light spreads out as soon as it leaves the lens. 1080P is impossible with a front projector. Best Buy store on Airport HGY, Toledo Ohio.

Seriously...he argued with me. Why would you even consider using these fools to do anything in your home?