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best buy offers hdtv calibration: how does it rate (details inside) - Page 14

post #391 of 454
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitallyFlat View Post

In the end it's not about the director, the calibrator or the ISF.

honestly, I suggest you don't spend money on a calibration from any Professional Video Calibrator..

Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitallyFlat View Post

Personal services are about people and that my friends is the way we like them!

simply make the adjustments as you see fit
post #392 of 454
was there a point to that post?

cliff's notes, anyone?
post #393 of 454
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

was there a point to that post?

cliff's notes, anyone?

If one doesn't think that calibrating a display to the "standards" (commonly D65 and Rec-709) which results in being able to more accurately display an image as the director intended, then there is no real need for a calibration...........

Personal services by a professional calibrator will vary, their goals shouldn't....... Their results may vary due to skill level and equipment.......
post #394 of 454
glen, turbe's post i understood...

the mental masturbation post is what i got confused by...
post #395 of 454
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitallyFlat View Post

Taking something as simple as color, do all people see color exactly the same? (other than color blind or vision impaired folks of course) Certainly we all call orange orange because that is what we were trained to call that particular color when we see it, but the question as to whether or not we all see the same thing when we see orange is very much less clear.

Let's be so brash for one moment to assume that in fact that there is some or perhaps even a good deal of variance between what I see as orange and what anyone else does.

You are missing the point....... even if one is color blind, or let's say one only sees in B&W, the shades of gray all change with color and if the shade of gray for flesh tones is off, it doesn't look right...... Moving on to colors, if one sees reds differently than others, if that red is not the right color, it really doesn't matter how you see it, it will be different than it should be.

If you get taken in by bold, vibrant, excessive colors, then you may not be a candidate for calibration, if you want simple things like flesh tones looking as natural as possible (considering the source is accurate and natural) you will need a grayscale calibration and possibly color gamut if the display has that feature.
post #396 of 454
Color perception varies between individuals.
Most eyes have three types of cone system most sensitive to Green, Yellowish-Green, Bluish-Violet simplified to RGB. Up to 10% of women have a fourth type of cone most sensitive to Bluish-Green, eyes also have rods, all these sensors respond to a wide band of overlapping frequencies each with their own bell curve like response dependent on the frequency and intensity of light. Defects in one or more of the genes encoding red and green pigments leads to varying degrees of color blindness in almost 10% of men. Less common is green-blue confusion. Also some people are completely lacking in one of the three types of cone systems and only require two types of cones to match all the spectral colors they can see. Subtle varations in color perception occur even among individuals with normal color vision due to polymorphism in the red pigment gene. For men 62% have amino acid 180 in a srine residue while in 38% it is a alanine residue. For women their are three types homozygotes for Ser180, homozygotes for Ala180 and heterozygotes who display an intermediate phenotype. When matching the intensity of red and green, the intensity of red needed depends on the amino acid at position 180. Different people can distinguish a different number of distinct hues particularly orange-red hues.


Displays are more narrow band than the real world and trick the eyes by stimulating the three types of cone systems and the rods in the correct ratios to fool the eye-brain into see the full range of color hues. But individuals vary in their ability to discriminate between hues and the proportion of stimulation needed from each type of cone and the rods to produce the perception of different hues. The perception of color also depends not only on the stimulus wavelengths and intensities, but also on difference of intensity between regions and whether the patterns are accepted as representing objects. The brain plays its part as well as the eyes.

As long as the display is reasonably wideband for each color (which current displays are), I would expect it is going to be mimicing reality for the individual reasonably well. Human perception is also color adaptive for different lighting conditions so that helps. When you use very narrorow band frequencies for colors (possibly future led dlp or laser displays) you start to get more obvious problems with variations between individuals as to how display primaries combine to produce the perception of secondaries and other color hues. I believe that digital cinemas choice of red primary was effected by the consideration of the variation in human perception
post #397 of 454
Quote:


Still understanding I can never really achieve to see what the director wanted me to see precisely, what is more important? That I see something close thereto, or something that most pleases my eye?

Here's what I say to that: I have never had anybody spend serious time with an accurate, and high-quality image not be blown away by how "good" "pleasing" "amazing" or whatever nonsensical subjective word you'd like to insert, the image is. In my view, those words are only meaningful in describing the accuracy of the reproduction, but my point is that for people who just want something most pleasing to the eye, if you actually spend time with a variety of images and actually care about how "good" they look, you will invariably end up with an accurately calibrated reproduction chain. Because when you do view content that should appear natural, it will appear natural, and that will look simply amazing. With whatever willy-nilly preferred nonsense you might arrive at, it will never appear natural.

That being said, if you don't believe or care about quality images, don't get your display calibrated. Just don't pretend that you care about image fidelity. It's a free country, do what you want. Nobody is forcing you to get the best TV you can, or get the best picture and sound you can. If you like horrible images, or like horrible sound, great!
post #398 of 454
I had my Samsugn b58860 calibrated along with my Pioneer 50"5010 this past Saturday.
All I can say is "WOW". There is more detail, shadows, I'm very pleased with the results.

what a difference calibration made on both sets, the Pioneer looks better but extremely happy with my Samsung.
post #399 of 454
Since this topic (it's old) is most relevant to my situation ...

I just bought a PDP-6020 from BB with calibration service. i was told:
1. needs 100 hours to break in
2. ISF calibration
3. takes about 1-2 hours.

Based on what i read, these seem to be reasonable.

I also read that the PDP-6020 is not adjustable. Maybe it means not menu-adjustable but still service-adjustable? Otherwise, i do not see how BB can do any ISF calibration.

Is it possible to store 2 calibrations settings (if necessary): one for DIRECTV and one for Blu Ray?

Thanks for advice.
post #400 of 454
Some BB calibrators are excellent, some are absolutely terrible.

If the BB guys were professional, they wouldn't be using chroma5s to calibrate displays (if they still are; I could be mistaken). Ask if he or she can provide information that their meter is traceable to a standard and that it has been re-certified at the recommended intervals. Please don't let these guys rip you off. This is too nice of a display.

The 6020 is adjustable. You just have to get into the service menu. It's not a place that I'd feel comfortable letting some dude that drives a geek squad volkswagon bug into.

They might actually do a good job though, you never know. For me however, I'd hire someone based on word of mouth. Even independent calibrators aren't all equal. You're in the right place if you want to find a real pro. It's around the same price as the BB version usually.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dvrhsl View Post

Since this topic (it's old) is most relevant to my situation ...

I just bought a PDP-6020 from BB with calibration service. i was told:
1. needs 100 hours to break in
2. ISF calibration
3. takes about 1-2 hours.

Based on what i read, these seem to be reasonable.

I also read that the PDP-6020 is not adjustable. Maybe it means not menu-adjustable but still service-adjustable? Otherwise, i do not see how BB can do any ISF calibration.

Is it possible to store 2 calibrations settings (if necessary): one for DIRECTV and one for Blu Ray?

Thanks for advice.
post #401 of 454
Thanks so much for your input!

i got the calibration included when i paid for the 6020. So i need to ask the right questions to the right calibrator.

I am still unsure if 2 settings are required: night vs day; or different video sources like DIRECTV vs BLU RAY??

Thanks again.
post #402 of 454
Output from the direcTV box isn't really differnt than blu-ray.

The content is all over the map for TV, so you just calibrate to standards and that's about the best you can do.
post #403 of 454
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfbrown94 View Post

If the BB guys were professional, they wouldn't be using chroma5s to calibrate displays (if they still are; I could be mistaken). Ask if he or she can provide information that their meter is traceable to a standard and that it has been re-certified at the recommended intervals. Please don't let these guys rip you off. This is too nice of a display.

I think you may be referring to a different meter. Chroma 5's (at least newer ones) are NIST traceable and come with the documentation to prove it. This meter is perfectly fine to use on a plasma display such as the 6020. Perhaps you referring to the Colorpro Puck III or IV. Either way, a mediocre instrument in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing can yield light years of differences compared to a person with $25,000 in equipment and no common sense. Best wishes!
post #404 of 454
Yes, I believe I'm incorrect about the chroma5. My apologies. I'd still ask for a current certification for the meter.
post #405 of 454
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvrhsl View Post

I also read that the PDP-6020 is not adjustable. Maybe it means not menu-adjustable but still service-adjustable? Otherwise, i do not see how BB can do any ISF calibration.

Thanks for advice.

Grayscale can be adjusted through service menu, color gamut can not.
post #406 of 454
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvrhsl View Post

Thanks so much for your input!

i got the calibration included when i paid for the 6020. So i need to ask the right questions to the right calibrator.

I am still unsure if 2 settings are required: night vs day; or different video sources like DIRECTV vs BLU RAY??

Thanks again.

where do you live?
post #407 of 454
I live in Houston.

----------------

As for the BB calibration, I am a little confused now.

Compared to the PRO-151FD, most reviews had some concern about the color inaccuracy of the 6020. And that the color is not adjustable (I hope they mean not user menu adjustable).

From reading the posts here, my understanding were that greyscale and color and whatever else are service menu adjustable. The calibrator just have to have the right tools.

Now one of the comments says that the greyscale is adjustable but not the color gamut? Could someone please clarify.

Thanks again.
post #408 of 454
I also just got the 6020FD from BestBuy. Would using the D-nice settings be good enough vs. ISF calibration from BB? I am not sure if I would be able to tell the difference. Thanks.
post #409 of 454
Quote:
Originally Posted by tt08 View Post

I also just got the 6020FD from BestBuy. Would using the D-nice settings be good enough vs. ISF calibration from BB? I am not sure if I would be able to tell the difference. Thanks.

Dnice's settings can often be as far off from accurate as the stock settings.

You are far better off getting a calibration from best buys.
post #410 of 454
Really? Please provide data to prove that making sure the display(s) you are attempting to discredit my settings with are within the parameters set for the displays my settings are specifically designed for. I assure you that I have multiple calibration files that document how my settings are FAR better than the stock settings. Let me be very clear, my settings ARE NOT a substitute for a real calibration. However they are FAR better than anything that comes OOTB or via a "calibration" disc.
post #411 of 454
Could you please advise as to whether the color is also adjustable in addition to just the greyscale for the 6020?
Thanks.
post #412 of 454
Yes, the master color control can be adjusted, but the 6020 does not have a Color Management System. Meaning, the individual colors cannot be adjusted. You are pretty much stuck with the color gamut that is provided...unless you add an outboard unit. Best wishes!
post #413 of 454
Quote:
Originally Posted by trekguy View Post

I am not a BB fan but here is what the say about their calibration--note the ISF certified claim.


We'll calibrate your HDTV for optimal video performance, using the latest tools and techniques to create the most true-to-life high-definition experience for you. In addition to stunning picture quality, you'll benefit from reduced eye strain, longer TV life and significant energy savings. We'll also check your home theater system for proper operation, and organize and dress the wiring for a clean, professional look.


Product Features
Our highly trained, ISF-Certified Elite Service Specialists will:

Calibrate your TV to ISF standards for top video performance and create dedicated settings for two differet inputs
(emphasis added).

Adjust the surround sound levels of the A/V receiver to ensure all the effect speakers are working optimally

Review and check the speaker system; verify that all speakers are properly positioned and working

Review and recommend any remote control features or capabilities that might be helpful to you now or in the future

Ensure that all wires and cables are neatly dressed, using wire ties as needed

Clean up work area and remove installation debris

Approximate time: 2 hrs.
Well

Well let me say I just had my "free" Best Buy calibration on my $7000 Sony XBR. First he acted like I was talking Greek when I started talking ISF Certification. He did not go not any service menu and when I asked he said that my Sony did not have one! After setting up the equipment he started making adjustments. I asked if I would get a printout of the graphs with the before and after calibrations and again I could have been speaking Chinese! He used the equipment for a short time and the rest of the time he adjusted with his naked eye. He did not adjust my AV system nor offer to dress the cables! The picture does look somewhat better but nothing like I expected. What a waste! Problem is that there is no other opportunities in my area. Oh, he also used a BD to adjust the Blu Ray player. Just like you get on ebay!
post #414 of 454
Quote:
Originally Posted by jake608 View Post

Problem is that there is no other opportunities in my area. Oh, he also used a BD to adjust the Blu Ray player. Just like you get on ebay!

List of THX certified people.. most travel you do not need to be near them.. you may need to wait till they are in your area but you can get a real calibration done.

THX Calibrators

Or post your location here and ask who will be around.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/586330/isf-calibrators-where-are-you-located-please-post-here/0_100
post #415 of 454
Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

List of THX certified people.. most travel you do not need to be near them.. you may need to wait till they are in your area but you can get a real calibration done.

THX Calibrators

Or post your location here and ask who will be around.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/586330/isf-calibrators-where-are-you-located-please-post-here/0_100
Thanks I checked the list and nowhere is there anyone that works in Louisiana or travels here.
post #416 of 454
Quote:
Originally Posted by jake608 View Post

Thanks I checked the list and nowhere is there anyone that works in Louisiana or travels here.

Check with ChadB I know he goes to Tennessee and Florida on a regular basis. Also post in the other thread I lined to.. say "looking to have my XXX calibrated in "Your city/state" any one touring here soon?" You will get some responses.
post #417 of 454
Quote:
Originally Posted by jake608 View Post

Well

Well let me say I just had my "free" Best Buy calibration on my $7000 Sony XBR. First he acted like I was talking Greek when I started talking ISF Certification. He did not go not any service menu and when I asked he said that my Sony did not have one! After setting up the equipment he started making adjustments. I asked if I would get a printout of the graphs with the before and after calibrations and again I could have been speaking Chinese! He used the equipment for a short time and the rest of the time he adjusted with his naked eye. He did not adjust my AV system nor offer to dress the cables! The picture does look somewhat better but nothing like I expected. What a waste! Problem is that there is no other opportunities in my area. Oh, he also used a BD to adjust the Blu Ray player. Just like you get on ebay!

Most "modern" TVs should NOT be calibrated in the service menu. The service menu has become an even more dangerous place than they were 5 years ago because manufacturers have moved all the useful calibration controls into the User Menu somewhere.

Most Blu-ray disc players should have ZERO adjustments done to them. This is digital video. You don't get randomized 1s and 0s off of Blu-ray discs. You get a very precisely defined pattern of 1s and 0s that are NOT changed arbitrarily... the only way to change the images is to change the 1s and 0s in a video processing chip. In most cases, when you have adjustments in the Blu-ray disc player, those adjustments should be set to make NO changes at all so that what is read from the disc is the same data that arrives at the video display. Expecting adjustments to the Blu-ray disc player is unrealistic since there's really nothing you want to change in the disc player. You would only want to make sure that the best settings are selected and you're done. In another thread there's discussion about whether to send YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 or RGB to a video display... the only answer is that you have to check YCbCr 4:2:2 and RGB. If one looks better than the other, use the better-looking one. It doesn't happen often, but OCCASIONALLY RGB looks better than YCbCr... that was the case with a Sony XBR panel I reviewed around 2010... when sent RGB, the images looked slightly better. Don't spend a lot of time checking. View some familiar content in both modes and pick the one that looks better. If you can't tell in 5 or 10 minutes if one looks better than the other, there's probably no difference.
post #418 of 454
In my experience, some BR players do need adjustment. I personally have a Pioneer BR player, and the factory setting causes it to clip. Taking away a click of contrast (in the BR player's picture adjustment menu) fixes the issue. Many BR players have picture adjustments.

And yes, There is no need to enter the service menu on that Sony unit. It has the basic user adjustments and a simple 2pt WB control in the user menu. Sounds like he did the calibration, but did a sub par job on education. Did you ever receive a detailed calibration report that listed the before/after settings and the before/after performance of the set?
post #419 of 454
No never did even though it is in their description. I just spoke to him since he has to be the one to return and fix the calibration. I again asked about the print out and was told that he can explain instead of a printout. He then proceeded to tell me that he found out more information about my TV after the calibration and that he has been trying to get in touch with me to come and complete the job. BS! His message was, just checking to see how you like the calibration and if there is any issues! I told him that if he would said he needed to complete the job that I would have responded. Then if you as a calibrator is heading out to calibrate a Sony XBR HX950 you would familiarize yourself with it before and not after. I asked about the service menu and again I was shoveled BS. After telling me that my TV did not have a service menu now I asked if he knew how to get into it and he said yes, but could not explain to me the steps to access it! He said that there was nothing in the service menu to adjust the picture which is indicated with some responses above, but when I asked what is actually in it he could not tell me.

Bottom line, I expected to have a printout of my TV before the calibration and after the adjustments were made so I can see the changes. He tells me that even if the equipment says that it is correct that it may not be correct. I told him that I would believe the $20,000 equipment over his eyes! All he had with him was, a laptop, the sensor that is placed on the screen by suction, and just one apparent generator. Nothing more except a Blu ray of Avatar 3D! Nothing like the equipment that is pictured on Best Buys site showing their calibrators training and doing calibrations.

For a $7000 Sony XBR 65HX950 full array Led 3D TV after calibration I expected the picture to come alive. Instead it looked no better than the settings I used off of a Sony forum. SAD!
post #420 of 454
I'm trying to wrap my head around what else you are expecting.

The Sony has (and it's been like this for several generations) only a few settings, all which can be found in the regular menu that you, me, or my grandma can access.

Contrast
Brightness
Color
Tint
Sharpness
Gamma
2 points of white balance
screen size

The service menu is not some magical place where there are "extra" settings or adjustments. This is where the engineers set things like HDMI timing. It's like the BIOS menu of a computer. The guy that came to your house may have done a crappy job explaining what he was doing and why, but unless you post some data the very experienced guys here have no clue if the TV is within spec or not.

Doug pointed out above that you should NOT go into the service menu on modern sets. If you do enough searching, you will see that more harm is done than good when going into the SM.
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