best buy offers hdtv calibration: how does it rate (details inside) - Page 3

I had one tell me a cablecard tuner did NOT have a QAM tuner in it. I said, how does it tune the cable channel then? and got a blank stare.

Clearly, the salespeople do not need to be ISF trained (though they should).

This is not correct. Anyone who knows what they are doing can calibrate a display. I have my Samsung LN-T4661F completely D65 calibrated in the service menu so that I don't have to touch anything but the backlight in the user menu. Granted, that model of TV doesn't have anything beyond greyscale controls, so you can't set the gamut on the TV, but to say that your average Joe can't "completely" calibrate a TV is patently false.

ergo, the every average joe has the know how to calibrate a display (and has the proper equipment to do it)

Greetings

"need pro calibration to see more detail in the dark area" ... paraphrased.

hmmmm ...

anyone with the Free THX optimode can setup contrast and brightness properly. Don't need a pro to do that unless you are alone and without arms. (Or illiterate)

The challenge is knowing that the setting you arrive at is the correct one ... and that nothing along the way is messing with the signal. (Like the DVD player crushing black on the output signal)

regards

Exactly. I've calibrated my sets after years of "part time" study on the topic through websites like these and used an Eye-One LT to do it. But am still having a pro come by in October to get my new Samsung "perfect" and hopefully learn so much more (and figure out how much of what I think I know is simply wrong!)! ... thank you Mr. TLV!

Edit: Oh, and by "exactly", I mean that the "average joe" has no idea how to calibrate a set even remotely close to "correct". The "not so average" joe's like myself may get their sets say 70 or 80% of the way there with some inexpensive equipment and hours and hours and hours of reading over the web, but probably still don't know 10% of what a good ISF trained pro understands.

You are lucky you have such a knowledgable person to learn from.

*Facepalm*

Mod's, can we ban the idiotic employees that have posted in this thread? If I read another post about our calibrations extending the lifespan of the TV or cutting down on your air conditioning costs, I think blood will shoot out my nose.

Hopefully some of you guys know me from the Amp, Receiver and Processor thread. If not, take a look in the Harman/Kardon threads...I just want to make sure everyone understands that I'm not your typical Best Buy employee. I have never drank the Kool-Aid from my employer, and neither do my employees.

When we first got the in-store advertising stating that calibrations reduce your energy costs, we called our district manager and told him we were pulling that signage. It's not true. As previously stated in this thread...any energy savings are a nice side effect, but not a main benefit. Calibrations are great, as anyone posting in this thread undoubtedly knows. If you're unsure whether to go with Best Buy or not, ask to speak to their calibrator. Ask him what kind of equipment he uses, was he trained by ISF or was he in the second wave of calibrators? It's just like picking a contractor for your house...you wouldn't just pick the big guys in town without finding out more about them, would you? I know I wouldn't. If you don't like the answers you're getting, then move on to someone else.

As far as the Monster Cables...independent testing has pretty much put all those claims to rest. In extreme circumstances, including long runs and above 1080p video, high end "boutique" brand cables can make a difference. The average person, though, will never see a difference when hooking up a Blu Ray player and their surround sound. There is just no difference, plain and simple.

You are absolutely incorrect stating that a calibrated TV will NOT reduce your energy consumption.
As an ISF instructor and participant in the research grant we conducted for the California Energy Commission regarding energy usage with Plasma and LCD Flat Panel TVs, it was very common for displays that came out of the box, connected to signal, and viewed in the OOB default preset to use 20% more enegry during operation than a set that was in a mode that manufacturers designate as a reduced Contrast mode (Movie, or Cinema, for example).

The methodology was to adjust Contrast and Black Level in the default mode for correct viewing (even that was perhaps an unfair advantage as it likely lowered the consumption slightly, compared to the manufacturer's defaulted settings) and then measure wattage consumed using a Brand Electronics E127 OneMeter Digital Power Meter.
The meter was connected to the wall outlet the display would be connected to, and the display was connected to the meter.
Power consumption was monitored and recorded starting with the default settings (adjusted as described above) and then post-calibration to ISF reference standards.
Plasma displays on average offered a 20% reduction in energy comsumption, in the 42"-50" sizes, and LCD's varied (especially with Backlight adjustment) depending on screen sizes with 15% to as much as 30% energy reductions.

The State of California was supremely keen to learn of the potential reduction to drain of the "grid" with these results. So much so, that you shouldn't be surprised if in the near future, out-of-of the box default will be the polar opposite of the current (no pun intended) norm: Reduced Contrast will be the default, as most people conclude that is the most logical setting for them, if that is how the manufacturer has shipped the unit. For ramping up the Contrast, the consumer will be forced to make adjustments (as a fourm person, you couldn't perhaps put your head around the notion that most consumers are timidly afraid to adjust things that make absolutely no sense to them). Speaking of opinion with this next statement and no basis in fact, I would estimate that of the 27 million TVs sold in the past 12 calendar months, 80% or greater are as they came out of the box.
To not believe that a state like California would legislate to earn a reduction in grid consumption by 5-10% (most households have multiple sets in use simulaneously) is naive. Look at the CAFE standard they legislatively imposed on Ca. destined autos and emissions requirements of non-Ca. cars moved into the state.
Let me make it clear that the ISF was commissioned to conduct the research grant, and in no manner made conclusive suggestions to influence decision- making. We merely supplied the contracted data with the arrived at results.

And to speak to the second point made by jayhawk, we would not advocate calibrating a display merely for the derived energy savings. As was said, it is a pleasant by-product as an after-affect of improved image fidelity that energy savings can be reaped, however, that is not the raison d'etre to do so.

Jayhawk, if you are connected to Best Buy, please cease to denounce that energy savings can not be netted. In a short period of time, you will be proven to suffer a demerit to your credulity. It needn't be mentioned or stressed whatsoever, though going out of your way to appear more brilliant than the folks in Mn. may have a deleterious affect on your career.

If anyone would care to discuss this in person and would be occasioning to visit CEDIA, I can be found at the ISF seminar location on Sunday, September 7th preparing the room for the seminar the 8th and 9th.

I phrased my response to GCmusic22 poorly. I was NOT saying that anyone can just pick up their remote and properly calibrate a display - they have to have the equipment and knowledge to do it.

The tone of GC's post was that end users cannot fully calibrate displays. This is NOT true, again assuming the end user has the know-how and basic equipment.

Do I think what I do is as good as what a professional with gear that costs many times more than my display can do? Absolutely not. Do I think I can get a close solution that will make me happy? Yes - and the best part is that I get to learn every time I calibrate a display. I have quite a bit of admiration and respect for professional calibrators who have forgotten more than I know about the subject - maybe some day with some hard work and a lot of patience, I can be in their shoes - everyone has to start somewhere.

I cut the rest of that response for space reasons, but I think you misunderstood the point of my post...while at the same time catching it later in your response. I picked a poor choice of words when I said that it's not true, but re-stated it in the same paragraph. The main benefit of an ISF-certified tech calibrating your display is the improved image quality. Energy savings are a nice side benefit of it, but shouldn't be the sole reason for an end user to get their set calibrated. That's the point I was trying to make with my post...the average Best Buy employee will hammer the energy savings home as a huge benefit to the consumer walking in, when anyone who works with calibrations on a regular basis knows that every set is different. One person may see a relatively huge difference on a power meter reading, while his neighbor's energy savings may be negligible at best.

We protested putting up the signs in store due to the signage itself being misleading in stating that every customer would see x amount of energy savings. When corporate took a step back and though twice about how they phrased it, they pulled those signs and re-did the advertising for them.

Your suggestion that I not attempt to make myself appear more intelligent than my colleagues in Richfield, Minnesota is misguided at best, and downright offensive at worst. I wasn't attempting to make myself appear better than anyone in the company. We all have our roles to play, and we all make mistakes. In this case, our advertising team made a poor decision, we pointed that out to them and the problem was fixed. Hardly, as you so eloquently put, "deleterious" on my career. I would hope that any of my co-workers would be willing to point out problems in my decision making process, as well.

Not being afraid to step outside the box is something that typically gets one noticed in a career path. I hope that staying in lock-step with each other and being unwilling to point out flaws in judgement are not qualities that ISF encourages it's members to have.

I feel like I have waxed a bit poetic here, but the underlying fact is this: You fired from the hip on your reply to me. You obviously are quite knowledgeable regarding ISF techniques and procedures, but don't mistake your professional knowledge as a "holier than thou" card to instantly cut down anyone who has an opinion...especially when that opinion is the same one that you voiced in your reply.

From one DIY calibrator to the next, HI-FIVE!

Your original post was constructed of terse, point driven statements:
"When we first got the in-store advertising stating that calibrations reduce your energy costs, we called our district manager and told him we were pulling that signage. It's not true."

You then muse that there is a side benefit -
"As previously stated in this thread...any energy savings are a nice side effect, but not a main benefit. Calibrations are great, as anyone posting in this thread undoubtedly knows." - but proceed into postulating the merits of a Best Buy calibration: "If you're unsure whether to go with Best Buy or not,..."
I acknowledge that in your retort you feel you were misunderstood, however if you re-read your own words, your statement portending any reaped energy savings due to calibration is declaratory, seemingly unequivocal, and suggests little or no room for anything contrary to what you state to be possible. And continuing on, you present an aire of espousing your local authority by stating "we called our district manager and told him we were pulling that signage" implying, and speaking to my point, that you were taking the law into your own hands despite, perhaps, "corporate's" wishes otherwise.

How you interlace with the BB culture and management style is not my concern, and I retract and apologize for any inference pertaining to your abilities thereof. I sought only to clarify that your initial stated stance was and is fundamentally untrue.

As for "holier than thou"...no. More knowledgeable, perhaps, and you weren't being "cut down" for your opinion, you were being cited for declaring your opinion as definitively factual, less of course your further qualification regarding energy savings as a residual benefit. The identical opinion, as you state, is stressed in class that we would calibrate anyway - and have been for 13 years.

jeees, louise.....why don't you both let go - Mr ISF because your 'holier than thou' gold membership reeks stronger than the mightiness of your high horse, and Jayhawk, because yes, your statements needed clarification after the fact, were initially untrue, but fully qualified at the bottom line, and shouldn't have had to defend yourself against such a pompous and assumptive (and lying) academic.
Mr. ISF - there was absolutely NO HINT of any effort on JHawk's part to go out of his way to appear more brilliant by calling his district manager. I call my boss on the phone frequently, as JHawk did and as I do when I am going to do something which I feel needs expressing because of it's import. You, on the other hand clearly projected your own issues which in this case, specifically betrays your issues with addressing authority. hmmm....don't have a chatty relationship with your Boss?
You retraction and apology pertaining to JHk's abilities at his work, well..., nice try, but your bitterness and cat claw scratching was far greater than what JHk discretely and reservedly called a cut down, not even relevant to a 'citing' and was more accurately drenched in....well....for lack of....ByOtchiness. Jhk's career is not the sum of his demerits, and your visious attacks seemed to fly out from left field. (And who cares about my spelling or my typos, I'm a concert pianist, not an English prof, and English is not my native tongue.) JayHawk -- you can make my Mac snap anytime.

I think they probably have let it go considering the nearly two weeks since the last post in this thread.

Wait, i think he means there's 12 wires inside of every other wire instead of 3 wires inside of every other wire.. Did you actually cut cables for this? or you just looked it up in the picture that's on the back of the monster cable package?

When did they start doing this?

I purchased the Best Buy TV calibration service earlier in the week. Aaron from the Best Buy store in Lake Charles, LA came out yesterday and performed the work on my Sony KDS-R60XBR1 LCD rear projection set. I was hoping it would improve my set and I am not disappointed. I have used the AVIA disc to calibrate this set and the picture was good but now it is spectactular. The colors are much more realistic, the picture has a more clean 3D realistic look. Watching the NFL in hd is even better than it was before and blu ray movies on my PS3 are amazing, they always looked like they weren't living up to their potential but now I see what they can do. Aaron told us that our factory grayscale was off his meter and he got it back down to near the 6500K standard. I highly recommend the service.
Kevin

I'll tackle this thread later =D

A buddy of mine used their services here in NY and he said it was worth it.

.....Unbelievable, do you understand anything about digital signals and wiring. I feel as if you are trying to sell me something right now. All you have done is proven to me that best buy salesman have no idea what they are doing.

How many times do people have to say this. It doesn't matter if there are a thousand wires or one. Either the signal gets through or it doesn't.

With digital signal transmission there can be issues with cross-talk and interference. Decent shielding found on any HDMI 1.3x spec cable should meet this. There's no need to pay more than $10 for a 1m HDMI cable.

jeff

My dad purchased a new Samsung LCD and Best Buy is supposed to come out and calibrate it in a few weeks. At the sale, they sold my dad a set of Monster HDMI cables which kind of made me angry. Especially when Big Lots has HDMI's for $6.00 down the street.

I plan on being around when they arrive to calibrate his set and, after they are done talking about how great his set looks after their calibration work, I'll take them upstairs to see my 34XS955 that I calibrated myself using the service menu, my knowledge of their parameters from Kentech's thread, my own discoveries, and a tablet PC with a cheap colorimeter. I also plan on letting them hear my 7.1 Pio Elite system too.

I'm just not sure what Bluray movie to show (I'm considering I Am Legend, I really like the deer chase scene) and I'll probably set up a hidden camera to record the whole thing too. Cause unless these guys are ISF certified or, truly know what they are doing, I'm betting they will be a little stunned.

Now if they claim they can get my geometry better, and fix a few other nitpick issues I have with my set then maybe I'll be stunned and spending $300

Greetings

The ISF says they are ISF certified. If you have a problem with that ... then it is with the ISF and not BB. ISF allows them to fly the banner.

Regards

CJsellsTVs,


Thanks, I needed that . . . . ROFLMAO

Nutt

So BB came out today and calibrated my parents Samsung. I'd have to say I'm impressed, the guy obviously knew more than I did from a technical standpoint and did a good job with the TV. Keep in mind though, this calibration only lasted about 2 hours so the set isn't perfect but, for the time he was there it made a pretty tremendous difference for the TV (LCD Samsung). The experience also made me feel more confident about my calibration skills. This guy was ISF certified and had 10 thousand bucks worth of equipment and did a fine job. However, I could still see that there were things that needed to be corrected, which isn't saying anything bad about the calibration but, tells me that I do actually know a little about what I'm doing with my own calibration. For instance, there is a bubbly looking fringe that shows up on one side of the screen, the colors still don't look perfect, and the overscan isn't 0% but, the set really does resemble the calibration I've done on my tv. Whites look great like mine, primaries look great too, like mine, secondaries don't look perfect but are extremely close, mine are pretty much spot on but, it could simply be that the CMS in the Samsung isn't capable (as even with the primaries I see a tiny hint of green in the yellows) though all this could just be the broadcasting material as I'm basing my findings from the Dish Network HD channel I was watching. Of course it's an LCD so the geometry and convergence look really good, better than my CRT, but my set has a bit better overscan. (The samsung has some kind of auto setting that sets the overscan based on the video content but it isn't perfect as the bottom still gets about 1/4 inch cut off.)

I'd have to say it was a great experience and for people that don't have the time or patience to do any calibration on their own I think the service is worth it. Although, I'm sure these guys don't have enough time to sit around and tweak specific codes tailored for the TV, (such as adjusting some of the internal focus tweaks I found on my xs955) it would have been nice to see what else they could do to the samsung if time permitted. It also saved me the countless hours of hunting down service code charts and setting up the tablet pc and colorimeter.

My only complaint wouldn't be with the calibrator but with BB sales reps for selling my parents an LCD and not a Plasma or Panny. Even after an ISF calibration that Samsung LCD just doesn't look as nice as my CRT. If you set the Samsung to 1080p and my CRT to 480p they look comparable. Run my set at 720p or 1080i and there just isn't any contest, the clarity, resolution, and black levels just rip the Samsung apart. For an LCD the set still looks great, but there's no way I'd settle for it in my living room.

As for the BB calibration, they guy was fast, very knowledgeable, and had a fantastic attitude. Although, I'm not sure spending $300 would be worth it for someone as myself it was absolutely worth every penny for my parents.

They get my two thumbs up.

Just my two cents... I realize there is a lot of Best Buy bashing here. I'm a Best Buy employee and have been with the company since Nov. 2005. There is no way that I would ever try to speak for the company, but I do want to say that there are a lot of employees who do know what they are talking about and will guide you to a system to meet your needs. When we picked up calibration as a geek squad service, I thought it was just a sales pitch. Doing some research, I realize the benefits of calibration, but for most people, a simple user menu adjustment will do fine. I believe in the service we do, I personally have met all 4 of our calibrators in our district, and I believe in their work. I'm just a college kid working there to help pay for school. I've gone through the trainings and tests and I am magnolia certified according to the company, but even then I'm not going to say that I'm the best. I do my job as best I can, and my job is to find a setup that fits a customer's needs.

I got a 25' hdmi cable for $20.00 here locally... it's a really nice cable too.. it runs 1080p24 just fine between a denon dvd transport and a sony vpl-hw10... Save your flippin money and tell best buy to take a hike.. they don't have a clue.... I take that back.. the clue they do have is.. how to rip the consumer off....

I was recently in best buy looking at their screen demonstration and heard some employee telling him how he would still have to use the rca red/white with a dvd player to his tv because his old dvd player didn't have hdmi and his new receiver did... wow

Calibrationg an LCD is a complete waste of time and money! Calibrating a Plasma reaps significant benefits in performance. The TV will run cooler and consume up to 30% less energy! It will look better, more accurate, more detail and the colors will just jump out at you. Different plasma respond differently to a full calibration. Don't expect to see anything better on an LCD calibration. It most likely will look worse if you calibrate an LCD!

And how did you come up with this conclusion?