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The Yamaha RX-V663 thread. HDMI 1.3 upconversion, TrueHD, DTS MA decoding. - Page 361

post #10801 of 11020
12/13/10 at 2:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by germanplumber View Post

It is my understanding the LFE track of the 5.1 signal over multichannel is sent -10dB compared to rest of the track to not overload the amp. Some receivers correct for this, and some need to be set back to the correct levels. After listening to a movie over optical (which is set correctly automatically) and then trying over multichannel outputs, I can tell that the sub is nowhere near where it should be over multichannel outputs.

I'm just trying to set it back to correct levels. Is this not correct? Does the yamaha 663 already correct for this when using multichannel?

For analog multi-channel, the player is supposed to provide the +10dB boost to LFE. The 663 doesn't have a analog LFE Boost ability.

See my post here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post14013153

In a nut shell:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post13664569
Quote:


To keep it simple the device with the DAC should apply the +10db boost. When passing by HDMI the AVR is the DAC so it applies +10db boost and player does nothing. When player is outputting analog it is the DAC so it applies the +10db boost.
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post #10802 of 11020
12/13/10 at 2:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatHappend View Post

For analog multi-channel, the player is supposed to provide the +10dB boost to LFE. The 663 doesn't have a analog LFE Boost ability.

See my post here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post14013153

In a nut shell:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post13664569

I've been doing tons of reading, and I was under the impression the player doesn't provide that +10dB for the LFE signal because it would clip or overload the amp. So the amp either has to automatically set it (which it does over digital connections like HDMI and optical) but not over the analog connections.

So I guess if what everything your saying is correct, why is the same soundtrack on the same movie over optical vs. over analog multichannel outputs have less bass?

The final configuration step in getting good sound from a multi-channel analog configuration is getting the subwoofer level right. This is often the toughest part of setting up analog audio. The LFE (Low Frequency Effect) channel is designed to play back 10db higher than the other channels, for maximum impact. But, that extra 10db may clip during transmission to your receiver, causing audible distortion. So, the LFE channel is generally mixed at the same level as the other channels in the soundtrack, with the understanding that it will be boosted 10db (decibels) by the receiver. With digital transmission of multi-channel audio, the software adds the boost to the signal automatically. With analog, the user (that's you) needs to apply the boost to the signal, but it can't be done in the player (again, due to the risk of overloading the analog inputs of the receiver) -- it must be done in the receiver.

That was from this link http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/Ho..._And_Why.shtml

Your saying the player provides it, but this article is saying the receiver (I.E. me correcting for it) does.
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post #10803 of 11020
12/13/10 at 3:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by germanplumber View Post

I've been doing tons of reading, and I was under the impression the player doesn't provide that +10dB for the LFE signal because it would clip or overload the amp. So the amp either has to automatically set it (which it does over digital connections like HDMI and optical) but not over the analog connections.

So I guess if what everything your saying is correct, why is the same soundtrack on the same movie over optical vs. over analog multichannel outputs have less bass?

The final configuration step in getting good sound from a multi-channel analog configuration is getting the subwoofer level right. This is often the toughest part of setting up analog audio. The LFE (Low Frequency Effect) channel is designed to play back 10db higher than the other channels, for maximum impact. But, that extra 10db may clip during transmission to your receiver, causing audible distortion. So, the LFE channel is generally mixed at the same level as the other channels in the soundtrack, with the understanding that it will be boosted 10db (decibels) by the receiver. With digital transmission of multi-channel audio, the software adds the boost to the signal automatically. With analog, the user (that's you) needs to apply the boost to the signal, but it can't be done in the player (again, due to the risk of overloading the analog inputs of the receiver) -- it must be done in the receiver.

That was from this link http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/Ho..._And_Why.shtml

Your saying the player provides it, but this article is saying the receiver (I.E. me correcting for it) does.

If your player doesn't provide the boost, you are out of like with this receiver (unless you only use the multi-ch inputs and no other sources.)

If you only use the multi-ch input, you can boost your subwoofer volume level by 10dB after YPAO runs, but if you use any other sources or FM tuner the sub level will be 10dB hot.
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post #10804 of 11020
12/13/10 at 8:26pm
Do you know any 3D blu-ray players that will output 10dB correctly over multichannel outputs?

I have a BD-C6800 and I just bought it. So if you know of one I can at least return it and get one that will supports my needs with my receiver.
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post #10805 of 11020
12/14/10 at 6:44am
I'm pretty sure the player outputs the sub channel 10dB low and it's up to the receiver to boost it, for the reason you mentioned. In fact when speakers are set to small and the player does bass management (mixing in low-frequencies from other channels) the sub channel is often output 15dB low to make sure there's enough headroom. So even at the best of times it's a real pain to set up the analog inputs and still have the digital inputs calibrated properly.

A better solution might be to get a BD player with two HDMI outputs, one of which will be 3D video direct to the TV, and the other will be audio only to the receiver. That should solve the problem but you'll probably have to pay a bit more.
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post #10806 of 11020
12/14/10 at 9:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by germanplumber View Post

Do you know any 3D blu-ray players that will output 10dB correctly over multichannel outputs?

I have a BD-C6800 and I just bought it. So if you know of one I can at least return it and get one that will supports my needs with my receiver.

The OPPO BDP-93 should work for you when it is released. The OPPO players have level adjustments on all 7.1 channels of the analog output of +/-10dBm. It will also have dual HDMI so you can avoid the whole analog input issue.

Pansonic DMP-BDT300 has dual HDMI

Samsung BD-C7900 has dual HDMI

You do realize that the 663 doesn't do any processing of the analog multi-channel inputs (no bass management, EQ, or sound fields). The only thing you can do is trim the entire multi-channel input by +/-6dBm to match the other inputs.

The reason that no AVR can apply a generic 10 or 15 dBm boost to the subwoofer input in their multi-channel inputs is that it is a subwoofer input and not a LFE input. The source (like your BD-C6800 when you set speakers to small) can be redirecting any non-directional bass to that subwoofer input. Players with a Dolby logo are supposed to apply the 10dB boost to LFE to be carry that Dolby logo. The device that is processing the digital input audio stream and converting to analog is the only location that has knowledge the -10dBm LFE signal is present.

Some higher-end AVRs and processors re-digitize the multi-channel analog inputs and apply Bass Management, have have the ability to apply various gains to the subwoofer input.
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post #10807 of 11020
12/15/10 at 7:09am
Instead of buying an all-new BD player with 2 HDMI outs, just get an HDMI splitter from Monoprice. one signal in (from the player) two out, connect to your tv & stereo. Product ID: 5418, $31.
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post #10808 of 11020
12/15/10 at 7:42am
I'm not so sure about the simple HDMI splitter. Anything that simply splits the signal into two identical outputs will still try to send a 3D signal to the receiver, and it may not be able to extract audio from it. The dual-output BD players can send different formats to the two outputs, to make sure older receivers can decode the audio.
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post #10809 of 11020
12/15/10 at 8:29am
I can tell you from experence that these didn't work for me with my 663 and blu ray player. I read the reviews and it seemed to work for some and not for others so I rolled the dice since I was ordering other stuff anyway.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

An active splitter would be the way to go. I tried to get off cheap and ended up wasting $5. Not the most expensive mistake I've ever made so I'm ok with that!
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post #10810 of 11020
12/15/10 at 9:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatHappend View Post

The OPPO BDP-93 should work for you when it is released. The OPPO players have level adjustments on all 7.1 channels of the analog output of +/-10dBm. It will also have dual HDMI so you can avoid the whole analog input issue.

Pansonic DMP-BDT300 has dual HDMI

Samsung BD-C7900 has dual HDMI

You do realize that the 663 doesn't do any processing of the analog multi-channel inputs (no bass management, EQ, or sound fields). The only thing you can do is trim the entire multi-channel input by +/-6dBm to match the other inputs.

The reason that no AVR can apply a generic 10 or 15 dBm boost to the subwoofer input in their multi-channel inputs is that it is a subwoofer input and not a LFE input. The source (like your BD-C6800 when you set speakers to small) can be redirecting any non-directional bass to that subwoofer input. Players with a Dolby logo are supposed to apply the 10dB boost to LFE to be carry that Dolby logo. The device that is processing the digital input audio stream and converting to analog is the only location that has knowledge the -10dBm LFE signal is present.

Some higher-end AVRs and processors re-digitize the multi-channel analog inputs and apply Bass Management, have have the ability to apply various gains to the subwoofer input.

I'm just going to return my 6800 and I found a DMP-BDT300 for a good price. They are crazy hard to find the 300 in stock and at a good price locally.

I typically don't do much buying online besides movies because of the customer service and issues I've recieved from Newegg, Tigerdirect, and Amazon over the years.

Thanks for the help though. I really appreciate it.
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post #10811 of 11020
12/15/10 at 9:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

I'm not so sure about the simple HDMI splitter. Anything that simply splits the signal into two identical outputs will still try to send a 3D signal to the receiver, and it may not be able to extract audio from it. The dual-output BD players can send different formats to the two outputs, to make sure older receivers can decode the audio.

I can attest to that based on what I've read.

I've read countless forum posts about splitters don't work. The reason is the 3D signal gets sent out to both HDMI outputs. The receiver tells the blu-ray player that it basically can't understand it and the 3d picture from the other HDMI connection either doesn't get sent out at all or it defaults to 2D because of the handshake with the receiver.

There would need to be a splitter that seperates the 2 signals, one 3D picture, and the other HD audio. As far as I know, this doesn't exist. That's why some brands have included on their blu-ray players.
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post #10812 of 11020
12/16/10 at 11:23am
this just reinforces to me that 3D isn't ready yet, and for the most part shouldn't be shoved down peoples throats as much as it is. There needs to be an accepted standard, with intercompatible glasses, before it ever goes to mass market.
Whenever they figure out glasses-less and standardize it, it'll be huge. That is, if they don't eff things up too much getting people to buy an unfinished product.

that said, thanks for the clarification here and if I do pick up a 3D projector in a few years and still have the same receiver (I hope), I know I'll need a new BD player...
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post #10813 of 11020
12/17/10 at 1:29pm
I have my front left, front right, center, and surround back/bi-amp speakers connected to the screw-in speaker posts. Can I connect the subwoofer to the Subwoofer 1 PRE-OUT on the receiver to my sub's LINE-IN input using a subwoofer cable or is this wrong? The manual says to not connect to the Speakers post when connecting to the PRE-OUTs, but only my sub is connected to the Subwoofer PRE-OUT.
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post #10814 of 11020
12/17/10 at 1:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by her209 View Post

Can I connect the subwoofer to the Subwoofer 1 PRE-OUT on the receiver to my sub's LINE-IN input using a subwoofer cable or is this wrong?

That is exactly the right way to do it!

Enjoy.
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post #10815 of 11020
12/17/10 at 1:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

That is exactly the right way to do it!

Enjoy.

OK, I get very low sound output out of my sub with this method. I'm trying to figure out where I went wrong. I've checked the subwoofer and it seems to be working when I use a 3.5mm to 2 male RCA cable to the subwoofer.
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post #10816 of 11020
12/17/10 at 2:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by her209 View Post

OK, I get very low sound output out of my sub with this method. I'm trying to figure out where I went wrong.

Have you run the YPAO calibration?

What are your bass management settings? Your mains should be set to "small" and bass set to go to "both".

What material are you using?? Is it 5.1 or just stereo?
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post #10817 of 11020
12/17/10 at 2:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

Have you run the YPAO calibration?

No I haven't run it yet.

Quote:


What are your bass management settings? Your mains should be set to "small" and bass set to go to "both".

Yes, I set the front, center, and surrounds to small. I've tried setting the LFE output to BOTH and SBWFR.

Quote:


What material are you using?? Is it 5.1 or just stereo?

Not sure what you mean by material. I have two fronts (Polk Audio Monitor 60s), a center (Polk Audio CS1 or CS2 can't remember), and the subwoofer. The two fronts are bi-amped.
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post #10818 of 11020
12/17/10 at 3:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

What are your bass management settings? Your mains should be set to "small" and bass set to go to "both".

Almost nobody recommends bass to BOTH.
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post #10819 of 11020
12/17/10 at 4:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by her209 View Post

No I haven't run it yet.

Until you've done that you are just pissing into the wind.
Quote:


Not sure what you mean by material.

What is your source material?? If it is just stereo, there is no LFE component at all.
Quote:


The two fronts are bi-amped.

Irrelevant and if "bi-wired", an utter waste of effort.
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post #10820 of 11020
12/17/10 at 4:12pm
Hi All,

I'm hoping some of the 663 experts can help me on something. I tried on the 667 thread but no one seemed to have an answer.

I have the 663 and have zone 2 connected to an amp for 2 outdoor speakers, 6.1 speakers in the main room and 2 speakers in the living room connected to the zone B terminals. basically with this I can have 3 "zones". The zone B can be controlled by turning on or off B speakers. If I put the speakers on A+B i can have music coming out of all the speakers with 7ch enhancer or 7ch stereo mode.

The 663 has a speaker button on the front which I use to switch to A or B or A+B. I see the 667 does not have this. is there a way to do this easily with 667? I read the 667 manual but they only mention Zone2/prescence and no ZoneB like the 663 manual has.

Does anyone here know if there is someway to do this with 667? I did searches on both threads and didn't see anything.

I can't believe yamaha took away the A,B speaker switch for the 665 and 667 and I'd like to upgrade to the 667 if possible.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

dcar00
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post #10821 of 11020
12/22/10 at 4:33am
Is there a way to setup the rx-v663 with the PS3 so that when listening to music from a media server (or CDs) that it will by default, be output in 5.1?
Right now I get 2.1 by default, have to press the stereo button, then when finished have to press the straight button to get back to tv settings.
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post #10822 of 11020
12/27/10 at 8:33am
Hello everyone once again,
small problem maybe you can help me out. I'm not sure if someone been messing around with my settings but my PS3 games no longer get matrixed to 7.1 with dplxII but here's the weird part, the inputs used to light up only 5.1 and all 7.1 speakers would play. Now All 7.1 inputs turn on but only 5.1 play, the RBL and RBR are silent. Any ideas? Just noticed it today...

Ps3 is the fat 80gb, settings look good unless im missing something (HDMI set to LPCM)
HTR 6160 is the amp
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post #10823 of 11020
12/27/10 at 9:17am
If the input shows 7.1, then the PS3 must be sending 7.1 and you can't use PLIIx with 7.1 input. It looks like the PS3 is taking the 5.1 sound from the games and padding it to 7.1 with silence in the rear surrounds (it has a habit of doing that).

If the game can't output true 7.1, then you can tell the PS3 to send only 5.1. i.e. go into Sound settings/Audio output settings/HDMI on the PS3 and manually uncheck the 7.1 formats.
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post #10824 of 11020
12/27/10 at 9:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

If the input shows 7.1, then the PS3 must be sending 7.1 and you can't use PLIIx with 7.1 input. It looks like the PS3 is taking the 5.1 sound from the games and padding it to 7.1 with silence in the rear surrounds (it has a habit of doing that).

If the game can't output true 7.1, then you can tell the PS3 to send only 5.1. i.e. go into Sound settings/Audio output settings/HDMI on the PS3 and manually uncheck the 7.1 formats.

that's interesting.. especially the "it has a habit of doing that" part...
the weird part it's on 2 games i've been playing alot (force unleashed 1 and fifa 2010) but it always showed 5.1 inputs and today it shows 7.1.. what could have changed? I like to put it on "straight" with dplxII to use all of my speakers.
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post #10825 of 11020
12/27/10 at 9:40am
I don't have my PS3 connected to my receiver right now to check it, but in the past it would pad even 2.0 music up to 7.1 over HDMI, with silence in the extra channels so the receiver couldn't use PLIIx. That was changed in a firmware update at some point, and I'm not sure which (if any) sources still get padded to the max number of channels specified in Audio output settings.

Check the PS3 HDMI audio settings, and see what's selected. If you selected Automatic at some point it would have enabled the 7.1 formats, and you can manually deselect them if you want. It a simple thing to try at least. Of course if 7.1 is not selected, you won't get true 7.1 output for those sources that support it.
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post #10826 of 11020
12/27/10 at 9:06pm
Been researching HTPCs and how they would hook up w/ my setup (RX-V663). I have read countless posts about HDMI issues transmitting audio when going HDMI straight from HTPC to receiver, as well as various apparent fixes.

Is there somewhere that has completely up-to-date information on this? Been looking at the HD5450, but if the problem still remains with either the cards or the receiver, I'm going to have to look elsewhere.

Thanks!
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post #10827 of 11020
12/28/10 at 6:58pm
Hello everyone. I'm having one trouble with my RX-V663, for some reason I cant setup upscale of analog video to something with more highest resolution using this unit.

I have DVB-C Receiver connected via VIDEO-AUDIO cables to V663, and then I have Sony HW15 (projector), connected to V663 via HDMI. My goal is to display DVB-C video on projector.

To achieve this I had to set VIDEO CONV to ON (in 5 OPTION MENU -> B) VIDEO SET) to convert analog video to HDMI. Thats worked well, and I can see video on projector, but signal comes as 576i (PAL) to projector.

I wanted to try how upscale is working, manual says that I should have option "HDMI RES." in B) VIDEO SET menu, when VIDEO CONV is set to ON, but this menu item do not appears, no matter what I tried to do.

Is it some known issue (if it is, sorry, but I cant find anything like this using search, can someone give me a link), if this is something which should not happen, can someone suggest what I can try to see this "HDMI RES." menu item after all?

Thanks!
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post #10828 of 11020
12/29/10 at 8:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by axlns View Post

I wanted to try how upscale is working, manual says that I should have option "HDMI RES."

The 663 doesn't do upscaling, only "upconversion" from analog to HDMI, as you've already seen.
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post #10829 of 11020
12/29/10 at 9:25am
Hi, I can't get 7.1 sound output to my speakers on my 663. Its only outputting 5.1 and my two back surrounds seem to be off. All others are working fine.

My components are;
InFocus SP5700 hooked to the 663 via HDMI cable.
663 hooked to a Sony Blu-ray S350 via HDMI cable.
I have two Paradigm PS-1000 subs hooked to 663 via Sub 1 and Sub 2.
My two main speakers are Paradigm 7se
Center is paradigm CC-100
Surrounds are Paradigm atoms
Rear surrounds are paradigm atoms as well.

I ran the YPAO calibration and it detects all speakers and sends out the pings to them and it seems to set up all levels, then when i hit enter to accept and set and go back to my test blu-ray... the new Star Trek movie, the rear surrounds have no sound coming from them and they disappear from the front display on the 663.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
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post #10830 of 11020
12/29/10 at 9:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparro View Post

Hi, I can't get 7.1 sound output to my speakers on my 663. Its only outputting 5.1 and my two back surrounds seem to be off.

When the audio track is 5.1, it only plays as 5.1 by default. To turn it into 7.1, change the EXTD SUR. setting and force PLIIx Movie instead of AUTO (page 92 of the 663 manual).
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The Yamaha RX-V663 thread. HDMI 1.3 upconversion, TrueHD, DTS MA decoding.