Evaluating Digital to Analog Converter Boxes for Users of Captioning - Page 2

Is this digital closed captioning or analog closed captions decoded through the converter box, or closed caption data passed through to the analog TV and decoded by your TV?

The answer is useful because it would help us know whether your PBS affiliate is having trouble transmitting digital closed captions or analog closed captions.

Many people have reported problems with PBS stations on digital networks, so I suspect that many PBS affiliates don't realize they need to be transmitting both digital and analog captions for their digital programming.

In a survey I set up for the captioning@yahoogroups.com, PBS is the network with the most problems showing captions for people who have HDTVs.

That suggests that the problem that you have receiving captions for PBS is not a problem of the converter box but shows a problem with the stations' transmission of captions. If it's not transmitting digital captions properly, of course you're not going to get good digital captions through your converter box. However, if you manually switch to analog captions (use the CC button to switch to CC1 for that channel only), you may be able to get by in the interim with analog captions for that program. I don't know, however, if the CC button for the converter box will work only temporarily for the channel, however, or if it changes all captioning for all channels you receive. It would really be helpful if you could do a systematic evaluation of the converter box as outlined in the first posting of this thread.

Dana

No. CEA-708 captions are digital. CEA-608 captions are analog.



Despite this document from NTIA, the practice seems to be that only some converter boxes will decode the captions via the converter box itself. All of them will pass through CC1 data to the analog TV, but since analog TVs can't decode digital captions, digital captions can't be viewed if there is no decoder within the converter box itself.

I personally don't understand why the practice is NOT to automatically include decoding of digital closed captions within the converter box as this seems inconsistent with other FCC rulings and is very confusing to the public. I'm afraid many people will look at the NTIA document, which clearly indicates that all coupon-eligible converter boxes should display digital captions, and will understand from this that all converter boxes will be able to display digital closed captions, and waste their $40 coupon on an online converter box that doesn't provide the digital closed captioning features they assumed it had. Once the $40 coupon is used, the consumer may not be able to apply the value of it to a converter box that DOES provide them the features desired (since so few retailers are providing more than two different kinds of converter boxes, neither of which may have digital closed captioning).

This is very, very misleading to people who need captions, and I think all the coupon-eligible converter boxes should have been required to provide access to the digital closed caption features in the first place.

In the meantime, however, if more people would do systematic evaluations of the boxes that do offer the digital closed caption features, the more people with hearing loss can find out about how the CECBs with digital closed captions meet their needs.

Dana

Thanks. That's interesting and well-illustrated info.

My Sharp HDTV is sometimes not decoding digital captions that the Insignia is decoding for "Lost" and some re-runs of "Law and Order" on the MyNetworkTV network. I'm puzzled as to how this could happen. The opposite situation happens sometimes; the Sharp HDTV shows 608-style captions for SD channels from a local PBS station but the converter box doesn't decode any digital captions from the station.

There's a need for a document to explain the various possibilities for why captions might not show up over digital programming. If anyone could find something like that, or even start one, that would be terrific. (I myself don't have the necessary technical expertise in audio visual science to fully understand the interactions between all the equipment.)

Dana

I've provided some significant updates to the first posting of this thread, including information about which CECBs appear to have the ability to decode digital closed captions.

Most of that information was gleaned by looking at descriptions of the CECBs which stated the box had "EIA-708," "advanced closed captions," or "digital closed captions." When there was only a statement that "closed captioning" was provided, I would examine the user manual, if it was available. (BTW, the user manual for the CASTi CECB does an exceptionally nice job of explaining digital closed captions, while the table of contents for the COSHIP's manual looks like they initially were going to use section 2.6 for digital closed captions but decided not to offer this feature at all. Troubling---and very undesirable---decision on their part.)

It's been confirmed by another user on this thread that the RCA DTA800B box provides digital closed captions (but he had problems receiving DCCs on a channel from PBS).

I emailed the web site for the MaxMedia CECB and received an email back on March 4th from info@memsen.com saying, "Our box does decode digital closed captions."

There's always the chance that a manufacturer will decide to drop an advertised feature; this has apparently already happened with at least one CECB. Before ordering a CECB, therefore, you should doublecheck whether the box does in fact have the features you think it does. If buying it online, we probably ought to print out the feature list before completing the order.

If possible, let's all try to ask the online stores selling the boxes to state clearly on the description of features whether their boxes decode EIA-708 captions (especially if they do). It worries me that they're not doing so already. Customer service people could be so confused that they provide the wrong information via email just because they really don't understand the difference between EIA-608 and EIA-708 captions. I'd feel more assured if I could examine the user manual and see a direct reference to digital closed captions and other advertised features there. If possible, then, let's try to find out how to get the online user manuals for all of these boxes.

For now, six user manuals can be found through:

http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Converter_Box.html

The CECBs described by those manuals are:

CASTi CAX-01
COSHIP N9900T
Insignia NS-DXA1
MicroGEM MG2000
Microprose MPI-500
Zenith DTT900

It *is* important to find out if you're getting digital captions for the digital channels in the area. Many people have reported problems with captions from PBS stations, so you may not even be getting fully digital captions from that station. For example, I get captions from the SD channels of my local PBS stations that appear in the style of analog captions (black and white with solid black background), and my digital caption settings for those captions aren't applied. That's caused by the PBS station. If you're getting fixed captions from PBS, for example, then you can't change the appearance of those captions, let alone the size of the captions. If that's what's happening, that's not the fault of the converter box.



If you're not getting any real digital captions in your area, you may need to hold off on getting a converter box and to work with your local TV stations to get them to broadcast both 708 and 608 captions over their digital channels sooner rather than later. Otherwise, you could be cut off from your local TV broadcasts if they never get around to fixing these problems. Your converter box won't be able to deliver you access to digital programming if no TV station is providing the necessary captions.



Resetting the CECB isn't going to affect how the remote control is set. The remote control will only be able to store the code for one TV at a time. Doublecheck the user manual about how to change the code in the remote control for the TV. If you wanted to keep this box, you may need to contact the manufacturer (or check out their web site) if you can't change the code in the remote control for the TV.

Let me ask everyone to bring up non-captioning troubleshooting problems with the general one for all CECBs at:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=980052

or with any threads that have been created for a specific CECB.

The one for this DigitalStream CECB is at:

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=996043

Let's use this thread only for evaluations of captioning issues with CECBs or related issues so that it doesn't get off-track.

Thanks very much for your input, Stanislav.

I haven't heard of "CS1" before, but "Service 1" on the Insignia box refers to the English language setting for digital captions, so my guess is that "CS1" refers to digital captions using Service 1. Users might only be able to change the size of captions if the user chooses the "CS1" setting as that is a selection of digital captions, while the CC# choices are analog only.

If you're only using the CC button, this may not work to set up permanent captioning settings. CC buttons aren't standardized and may be used by one manufacturer for a temporary change in the captions, or by another manufacturer for a very quick and easy menu. The only way to set up a permanent change may be by going into the Menu setting.

Still, it sounds like there are problems with how the DigitalStream DTX9900 has been designed with respect to digital closed captions. There's a chance that there's something abnormal about how local TV stations are transmitting their digital captions, but there should be some noticeable differences among the different stations.

I may see if I can get a local Radio Shack to demonstrate this CECB in the store. I know what the Insignia can do for the different local channels here (and I've never seen problems like what you've described), so I can compare what I see from the DigitalStream with what I've seen the Insignia do.

If those problems are duplicated here, though, that sounds really horrible for people who were counting on getting usable digital closed captions---and who may blow their $40 coupon on this CECB.

Doesn't the user manual provide any useful assistance about how to select the digital captions? (I'm hoping lulu8839 can answer this question.)

Certainly many people use captioning who don't have a hearing loss. That's why the title of this thread is "Evaluating Digital to Analog Converter Boxes for Users of Captioning" and doesn't assume that only deaf and hard of hearing people use captioning. However, captioning is especially important for deaf and hard of hearing people who can't reliably understand spoken communication without it. (Captioning is also important for many non-native speakers of English and people with auditory processing disorders and perhaps people with other kinds of disabilities as well.)

With all these users of captioning, though, we really need systematic evaluations of the captioning features from the different CECBs. I've outlined an evaluation process and 12 questions to be answered in the first posting of this thread. Other CECBs can be purchased in stores right now that offer digital captions: the RCA and Magnavox at Walmart, the DigitalStream at RadioShack and the Zenith at Radio Shack and Circuit City. (The Insignia is at Best Buy but I've already been evaluating that in the second posting of this thread.) Nowhere else have there been systematic evaluations of captioning features, so please help out here by systematically evaluating a CECB yourself (as outlined in the first posting) and sharing your input on this thread. If we don't do it here, it may never happen, and due to the time limits of the 90-day period for coupons, those people who have coupons already or coming soon need those evaluations sooner rather than later.

Dana

I think the CS2, CS3, etc is the equivalent of Service 2, Service 3, etc. and was simply a way of future-proofing the device in case a TV station wanted to broadcast captions in languages other than English. CS2 might also be used to broadcast captions at a slower reading rate (like for young children who can't read quickly), or conversely, at a faster rate for deaf or hard of hearing parents who are watching "Sesame Street' with their hearing children. (The normal captioning for Sesame Street is at a very low reading rate and doesn't actually follow the dialog.)



Now, that is interesting!

I think you're talking about the same kind of problem I had noticed earlier in this thread, though it sounds worse with the DigitalStream. Perhaps the subtitles do become part of the overall video image, and the way that the captions are inserted by the DigitalStream sounds inferior.

I went to Radio Shack today to try to get a demo of the Digital Stream, but the personnel said they wouldn't do it (they don't want to open boxes to demonstrate anything). I confirmed the ONLY way I could see for myself about digital caption problems would be to buy this, even though I'd heard two other people complain about the digital captions, and that I would need to return it if I didn't like it. Then the personnel prepared to sell me a converter box which turned out to be the Zenith (without telling me they hadn't found the DigitalStream), and then said they didn't have the DigitalStream in stock. (Along the way, it was very clear none of the three personnel had any idea these converter boxes decoded digital captions.)

I decided to go ahead and buy the Zenith to check that out as there might be slight differences between that one and the Insignia, even though thy both have the same chip. More on that later.

Stanislav, thanks very much for providing us more feedback on the DigitalStream. Sounds like the digital captions are too small to compete with a TV's built-in analog captions, and that the manufacturer just didn't implement those features well. On the Insignia, the largest font, Font 7, covers the entire width of the screen when all 32 characters are used, so it's possible to make digital captions large. My Sharp HDTV doesn't make its digital captions terribly large, but at least they're easy to read.

I emailed the contact at www.convertmytv.com (info@memsen.com) for the MaxMedia CECB about nothing being said publicly about their device having analog pass-through and EIA-708 captions. Here's the response I got:

______________
Dana,

Thank you for your interest in our MMDTVB03.

As you know, our box does feature analog passthrough capability for EIA-708 captions

We are not posting a full feature yet due to some regulatory issues with some of our competitors
and their lack of this above stated capability ... its a political issue.

We will have an online USER MANUAL available shortly. Please request one at
support@maxmedia-usa.com

Thank you,
Customer Service
www.convertmy.tv
_____________________


Oh boy. The person confused pass-through of analog captions with "analog pass-through of analog channels." It's also not possible to pass-through digital caption data to an analog TV, and the person who answered didn't appear to understand the difference between EIA-708 and EIA-608 captions.

There shouldn't be any legal problem for a converter box to pass through analog channels, to decode digital captions, to have S-video output or to provide a Smart Antenna interface, so what they said about not wanting to post their full features doesn't make sense to me.

Buyer beware. I'm going to wait for the user manual to be posted online OFFICIALLY as proof of what the MaxMedia CECB's features are, and I suggest everyone demand and look at the user manual first before buying. I'm not certain this CECB actually passes through analog channels or provides digital closed captions, and I haven't seen any public proof that this CECB does so. There *may* be some language translation problems getting in the way.

Dana

I've heard references to EIA-708B captions; perhaps those are the specific captions that are advanced, while the EIA-608 captions are supposed to be included along with the EIA-708B captions to form the entire EIA-708 standard? I'm having trouble finding clear information about this.


The EIA-608 captions would also reconstructed via the RF output. (Most of the CECBs don't have S-video output; they're all required to have the composite video and RF output.)

That sounds fine.


Works for me, too, especially since it's described as having DCC (digital closed captions) at ezdigitaltv.com.

I've updated the list of CECBs with DCCs at posting #1 with more links to supporting documentation, referring to user manuals whenever possible (or to a page containing a link to a user manual), and there's now a link to the user manual for the TB100HH9.

Unfortunately, there is still so much confusion about digital closed captions that some references to digital closed captions may have been erased in the list of features because the writer thought this was redundant information. So some of the pages that used to say the CECB had digital closed captions seem to have been changed and may no longer say they do---and it may be a result of the writer's confusion rather than a dropping of the feature. The Insignia page now doesn't say it has DCC, for example, and I think it used to. (The current link points to that page, which contains a link to the user manual.)



The linked list of features states:

"Closed Captioning
EIA-708 & EIA-608"

It's up to you, but I thought that was specific enough.

I think it would be highly desirable to see the user manual for all these CECBs, but it's still useful to indicate which ones have been described as having the DCCs---and to advise people to make sure of this before buying the CECB.


The linked list of features from ezdigitaltv.com stated:

"Closed Caption: Digital closed captions offering multiple font sizes, colors and backgrounds."

Again, when there's that much specificity, I'm inclined to think the CECB probably does have that feature.


I'll replace the current links with links to the user manuals if that information becomes known to me.

I'm not sure what you mean about differences with respect to the Insignia. I'm currently comparing this to the Zenith DTT900, though, but need to put the two boxes in the same room for a definite comparison between the 2.


Thanks. I erased the reference to the possibility of a Smart Antenna interface.


I have separated the MaxMedia box out of the list because I'm not comfortable relying on email from a confused-sounding customer service representative as proof that the box has DCCs.

I'm very glad to hear you'll be evaluating a CECB. FYI, no one else has yet indicated they'd be evaluating the digital closed captioning of the Magnavox.

Unfortunately, there's been a lot of problems reported with the Magnavox CECBs not even turning on, with one person on the AVS forum saying the first two boxes he picked up were dead right out of the box. So you definitely *do* need to find out if it will even work at all, let alone with your TV! Of all the CECBs bought from stores so far, the Magnavox CECBs appear to have the highest rate by far of being "dead on arrival."


You may be very glad you didn't buy it with a coupon since you'll be able to get your money back in full if you're not happy with it.


No need to apologize at all. We've gotten absolutely terrific information here related to captioning that might not be considered strictly related to evaluating converter boxes, but I think we've really benefited from them. I was worried, however, that despite dozens of messages, no one else had yet answered for any CECB the ten questions (now 12) which I had listed in the first posting of this thread. (We don't know if any other CECB's remote control is accessible to blind folks, for example.)

There are already problems surfacing (like with the DigitalStream and the RCA 800B, which might stop working properly with some TV stations if the background is set to transparent.) There's a definite need to find out more.


What I (and millions of other people) need to know is the information requested in the first posting for all the CECBs with digital closed captioning via the systematic evaluation process outlined in that posting. The second posting shows how that was done with the Insignia. The photos are optional but certainly desirable since they can let people make their own judgments.

The questions in the first posting can be copied and pasted into a new document, with answers inserted in between the questions. (Might be safer to create the evaluation in something like Word or WordPad first so you can save it and work on it over time, rather than try to type it up online in one sitting. It could then be pasted into a new posting on this thread when finished.)

Dana

I think the reason that the term "passed through" has been used by people and organizations other than myself is to emphasize that the EIA-608 captions must be present in the televised signal already and that the CECB is therefore required to "pass through" the EIA-608 caption data if this data exists. The CECB cannot do this for EIA-608 captions that are not already present in the televised signal. Some people have erroneously thought that the CECBs could convert EIA-708 captions to EIA-608 captions, which isn't the case.

The term "relaying" could be used with respect to the EIA-608 captioning data as I think that communicates that the EIA-608 captioning data has to exist in the first place. Deaf and severely hard of hearing people use relay services to understand spoken communication; the meaning is intended to come through intact and word-for-word even if the method of delivery is different. Thus although EIA-608 data is sent out digitally by the TV stations, the CECB relays this data to the analog TV by converting the data into a form that the analog TV can understand. The information remains exactly the same (or should).

I think the general public, however, will understand the term "pass-through" of the EIA-608 captioning data more easily than relaying; most people will absolutely not want to get into the mechanics about how this is done, and in many situations, it is kinder and more effective to speak to them in language they can understand than to insist on using technically precise language that's much too difficult, and irrelevant, for them to understand.

EIA-608 captions are often described as analog captions (even if they're sent digitally) because these are the only kinds of captions that can be decoded by analog TVs, and that language is easier for most consumers to understand. The use of the term "analog captions" should not be taken to mean that the person using this term believes they're sent via analog signals.

rrrroger, you brought in a quote of a message from another thread, which was out of context for this thread, particularly since you could have continued the discussion there and I had already addressed what you said on the other thread by stating that there are required features available from CECBs that are not available on analog TVS now. Please don't bring quotes from other threads here that are not directly related to evaluations of CECBs and which will bewilder everyone else here; if you want to continue the discussion, do so on the original thread or PM me.

Interesting.

How can we refer just to the digital captions in a way which doesn't include the EIA-608 captions that are also expected to be part of the bitstream?

There's a lot of confusion about digital closed captions, with some people believing that ATSC tuners can downconvert EIA-708 captions that don't have EIA-608 data within them to EIA-608 captions, or that it would be easy for them to do so----and that there's no need to continue broadcasting EIA-608 data.

As I understand it, though, the CECB boxes wouldn't be able to provide EIA-608 data to analog TVs if there were no EIA-608 captions in the original broadcast. They might have the optional feature to decode EIA-708 captions, but that is different from providing the EIA-608 data to the analog TVs to decode.

BTW, does the ability to decode EIA-708 captions automatically mean the ability to decode EIA-608 captions?

Anyway, I'm wondering how clear the FCC has been about the need to provide both types of captions after the cessation of analog broadcasts. If TV station engineers haven't been made aware that they still need to be transmitting both kinds of captions, and if equipment manufacturers and other people in the industry haven't understood this either, then many people with hearing loss with CECBs that don't decode captions could be without access to captions for a significant period of time.

In the DC area, there are four stations (WJLA, WTTG, my20, WETA) that don't routinely send both types of captions over digital channels, and I'm wondering if that's because of a failure by the FCC to communicate the necessity of both kinds of captions at every point along the way of transmitting, receiving and recording TV signals.

(Analog TV users who depend on captioning may really be hurt by all this confusion, but they'd be better off if they got a CECB with good digital captioning features which can provide access to both types of captions.)

Dana

Using the TiVo with a CECB for open-captioned recordings

One interesting way of using the digital closed captioning features of a converter box is to record open-captioned programs to a TiVo or other recording device. TiVo has provided a free program, TiVo Desktop, to transfer recordings to a computer, but I've never been able to access the recordings because there were never any provisions made for decoding the captions in the program. With a CECB that can "open caption" programming that can then be recorded by the TiVo, however, that problem can be circumvented.

Right now, it's not easy to set up the TiVo for recording from a CECB, but there's a work-around.

At this time, people who use the older series 2 TiVos hope that the company will develop the capability to operate the converter boxes through the IR extender just like they have for the set-top boxes used for cable and satellite TV. TiVo is already providing the menu for recording digital signals for their HD boxes, so it shouldn't be difficult to allow the Series 2 boxes to utilize those existing menus. If TiVo would provide that menu, it would be a big help, but that's probably a ways away.

In the meantime, although I'm only using an antenna to receive television signals, I've used the TiVo Guided Setup to set up my TiVo box (Series 2) to use DirecTV AND antenna; this allows me to force the TiVo to go into a tunerless or "monitor" mode in order to use the output from the set top box (which is actually the converter box) while also giving me the option to record directly from the antenna for unattended recordings. This is just a temporary work-around but allows me to use the TiVo to record digital channels that don't have good analog reception, or an analog equivalent (like multicast channels).

The RF cable from the antenna goes straight into the RF input of the TiVo while the converter box's composite video and analog cables go into the equivalent input area for the TiVo (taking the place of the virtual set-top box for the phantom satellite service). (As far as I know, no set-top box is compatible with the converter boxes, so it doesn't matter which one is selected.)

It's necessary to delete lots and lots of satellite channels that you don't receive, but to keep the HD channels that correspond to local channels. I wound up getting double channels (one for antenna and one for "satellite") that are going to be confusing at first but which will provide guide information later on for the TiVo. (For example, the second duplicate channel will be for the "monitor" setting for the Tivo, which allows it to use the converter box. The CECB will have to be tuned to the correct channel by using the converter box's remote control.) If the quality of the reception for a particular analog channel is good, however, you can eliminate most of the duplicate channels for unneeded use of the converter box, and only leave duplicate channels for the channels that come in best via the converter box. (I kept HD channels for channels like 22 and 26 as there are several subchannels for those stations.)

Some of the multicast digital channels won't have any guide information at all provided by the analog TiVos, so some of the recordings for those channels won't be correctly described, and that will undoubtedly be confusing. We'll just have to wait for the TiVo company to change this situation, if ever.

But for now, this is a way to use a converter box to send a good signal to a TiVo that can be recorded, and one can choose whether or not to turn on the digital captions for an open-captioned recording. I'm thinking I might try to record open-captioned songs, for example, which I could then choose to transfer to my computer. (I enjoy music but my hearing loss is such that I can never understand the lyrics and usually have no idea about the meaning of a song.) I might also record open-captioned home improvement shows so I can refer to them later when doing a related project.

(The best way to do open-captioned recordings would be with a CECB that has an S-video output (the TiVo has an S-video input). So far, only the MaxMedia CECB appears to have both S-video output and digital closed captioning.)

Dana