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Displays that support 1080p/24 signal at multiplies of the original frame rate

post #1 of 349
2/20/08 at 12:26am
Thread Starter 
** A list of discontinued 2-D 1080P displays that refresh 24fps at multiples of the original frame rate can be found at the following two websites **


A updated list of 3-D consumer displays that display 3-D & 2-D signals at Cinema quality frame rates can be found at the following websites:


http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=5155

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/home-theater-gear/25688-displays-support-1080p-24-signal-multiplies-original-frame-rate.html
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post #2 of 349
2/20/08 at 12:26am
Thread Starter 
** A list of discontinued 2-D 1080P displays that refresh 24fps at multiples of the original frame rate can be found at the following two websites **


A updated list of 3-D consumer displays that display 3-D & 2-D signals at Cinema quality frame rates can be found at the following websites:


http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=5155

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/home-theater-gear/25688-displays-support-1080p-24-signal-multiplies-original-frame-rate.html
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post #3 of 349
2/20/08 at 12:26am
Thread Starter 
** A list of discontinued 2-D 1080P displays that refresh 24fps at multiples of the original frame rate can be found at the following two websites **


A updated list of 3-D consumer displays that display 3-D & 2-D signals at Cinema quality frame rates can be found at the following websites:


http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=5155

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/home-theater-gear/25688-displays-support-1080p-24-signal-multiplies-original-frame-rate.html
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post #4 of 349
2/20/08 at 12:28am
Thread Starter 
Since BLU-RAY has won the format war and every BLU-RAY player currently in production has 1080P/24 output this list will benefit BLU-RAY owners that want to own a display that offers true 1080P/24 film quality reproduction.
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post #5 of 349
2/20/08 at 12:33am
Thread Starter 
Originally I created this list on other forums; hopefully this list will be helpful for those looking to purchase a new display that refreshes 1080P/24 signals at multiplies of the original frame. The following is a link that documents why these displays are on the list and why others are not

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=942145
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post #6 of 349
2/20/08 at 7:26am
Interesting additional note: At least some of these displays will also give you back the original 1080p/24 from 1080i/60 and then display it at a proper multiple of 24 as well.
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post #7 of 349
2/20/08 at 8:00am
NOTE: this list is a PERSONAL LIST OF THE OP - despite several independent confirmations he omits many CONFIRMED TRUE 24p display like the entire Panasonic Pro PF10-series (via new dual HDMI board or older DVI board), PF9-series (via DVI board) broadcast plasma display family. More about this HERE.
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post #8 of 349
2/20/08 at 8:00am
Sony's XBR4/5 LCDs look fantastic with BD (and I mean with the Motion Enhance turned Off).
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post #9 of 349
2/20/08 at 10:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

Interesting additional note: At least some of these displays will also give you back the original 1080p/24 from 1080i/60 and then display it at a proper multiple of 24 as well.

I wouldn't put too much stock into that feature moving forward. If dealing with commercially produced SD DVD's, then maybe. But in order for it work, the necessary flags must be correctly implemented in order for the set to de-interlace, IVTC, and subsequently discard those extra pulldown frames. If everything isn't just right, the result is a train wreck. And I know for a fact that the greatest offenders of this stupid 24p in 60i video mess, the consumer/prosumer AVCHD & HDV camcorders, do NOT implement flags to facilitate extracting your original 24p footage from interlace hell. So you need to use a tool like Cineform's NEO HD(V) to detect cadence and remove pulldown to get back your original 24p video.

Death to interlaced video. It has no place in the 21st century.
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post #10 of 349
2/20/08 at 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenear View Post

I wouldn't put too much stock into that feature moving forward. If dealing with commercially produced SD DVD's, then maybe. But in order for it work, the necessary flags must be correctly implemented in order for the set to de-interlace, IVTC, and subsequently discard those extra pulldown frames. If everything isn't just right, the result is a train wreck. And I know for a fact that the greatest offenders of this stupid 24p in 60i video mess, the consumer/prosumer AVCHD & HDV camcorders, do NOT implement flags to facilitate extracting your original 24p footage from interlace hell. So you need to use a tool like Cineform's NEO HD(V) to detect cadence and remove pulldown to get back your original 24p video.

Death to interlaced video. It has no place in the 21st century.


Well I have to admit that I was talking about HDM only here. Lots of people, AVR's, switchers, cables are better or only work at 1080i. I have to turn the feature off on my projector when running an SD-DVD at 1080i.
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post #11 of 349
2/20/08 at 12:20pm
I agree that the commercial Panny displays should be added to the Plasma list, as well as the new (not quite yet released) consumer PZ800U & PZ850U models, which will have 48Hz (2:2) display capability for 24p sources, according to Panasonic's website.
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post #12 of 349
2/20/08 at 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

Lots of people, AVR's, switchers, cables are better or only work at 1080i.

And that is a true shame because 1080 progressive footage is going to become much more pervasive as more and more people pick up these inexpensive little HD camcorders. 1080P/60 is going to take some time, but 24P & 30P fps are here and now. Needless to say, we're all waiting on the blu ray PC burners so we can render out in 1080P/24 and take advantage of these sets with 2:2/3:3/4:4/5:5 pulldown. Hopefully, more CE manufacturers will "get it".
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post #13 of 349
2/20/08 at 4:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by T2k View Post

NOTE: this list is a PERSONAL LIST OF THE OP - despite several independent confirmations he omits many CONFIRMED TRUE 24p display like the entire Panasonic Pro PF10-series (via new dual HDMI board or older DVI board), PF9-series (via DVI board) broadcast plasma display family. More about this HERE.

If you would provided a official link from Panasonic or a link to a professional review that proves the commercial Panasonics bypass the 3:2 pulldown process when a 1080P/24 signal is applied I will be more then happy to add them to the list.
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post #14 of 349
2/20/08 at 4:10pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slbosse View Post

I agree that the commercial Panny displays should be added to the Plasma list, as well as the new (not quite yet released) consumer PZ800U & PZ850U models, which will have 48Hz (2:2) display capability for 24p sources, according to Panasonic's website.

Information on how the new Panasonic 85U, 800U, and 850U handles 1080P/24 still remains unclear.

As soon as I read a review or a official statement from Panasonic that these displays bypass the 3:2 pulldown process when a 1080P/24 signal is applied I will add them to the list.

Quote
24p support - the details are still unclear if this means the television changes the refresh rate to match content that comes in at 24 frames per second, or if it just means the TV can accept 24FPS content and does a conversion. As of January 2008 the only consumer grade Plasma with native 24p support is the Pioneer 5080HD. Most likely this feature simply does a conversion from 24FPS to the set's native 60Hz.

http://www.productwiki.com/panasonic-viera-th-46pz85u
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post #15 of 349
2/20/08 at 4:16pm
How about Sony's latest projector (VW40)? Not real clear, just says "24p input capable".

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...52921665307855

Great list by the way.
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post #16 of 349
2/20/08 at 6:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrstevens421 View Post

How about Sony's latest projector (VW40)? Not real clear, just says "24p input capable".

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...52921665307855

Great list by the way.

According to one of my sources that Sony uses the same chipset as the other SXRD models to refresh 1080P/24 on the screen.
The new Sony VPL-VW40 Front Projector has been added to the list

According to one of my sources all SXRD Sony's that have a 1080P/24 input including the new Sony VPL-VW40 refresh 24fps at multiplies of the original frame. The Sony VPL-VW40 refreshes 1080P/24 at 96HZ and has been added to the list. This is a bargain priced projector for $2,999.99. Of course for $2000 more one can get the VPL-VW60 that has better contrast ratio of 35:000:1 versus the VPL-VW40 which has 15,000:1 contrast ratio. I wish Sony and other companies would just use the ANSI contrast ratio standard. Still for $2,999.99 this is a bargain projector for someone looking to spend around $3,000.

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665307855
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post #17 of 349
2/20/08 at 6:25pm
Looks good at 3k, .
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post #18 of 349
2/20/08 at 7:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

Information on how the new Panasonic 85U, 800U, and 850U handles 1080P/24 still remains unclear.

Check this link; and hit the 'Next' tab until you get to the slide that says "24p Cinematic Playback"

http://panasonic.co.jp/pavc/global/v...res/index.html

This describes the 2:2 cadence uses on some of their new models vs. their standard 2:3 processing. Elsewhere on their website, their product specs for the new 11G models state that the PX80, PZ80, and PZ85 models use the 'Normal' processing, and the PZ800 and PZ850 models will have this "24p Cinematic Playback" feature. I know the sets aren't out yet, but the info on the Panny website does seem to be pretty clear, if you look for it. I don't belive that productwiki.com is an official Panasonic site, is it? - although the info does look accurate for that PZ85U model.
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post #19 of 349
2/20/08 at 8:04pm
You can add the new 120Hz Toshiba LCDs that come out next month. Their literature calls out suppot for 1080p/24 using true 5:5 mutiples. All this and 14-bit processing on a 10-bit panel. I'll probably buy the 52 incher. Can't wait to see it!
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post #20 of 349
2/20/08 at 9:42pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slbosse View Post

Check this link; and hit the 'Next' tab until you get to the slide that says "24p Cinematic Playback"

http://panasonic.co.jp/pavc/global/v...res/index.html

This describes the 2:2 cadence uses on some of their new models vs. their standard 2:3 processing. Elsewhere on their website, their product specs for the new 11G models state that the PX80, PZ80, and PZ85 models use the 'Normal' processing, and the PZ800 and PZ850 models will have this "24p Cinematic Playback" feature. I know the sets aren't out yet, but the info on the Panny website does seem to be pretty clear, if you look for it. I don't belive that productwiki.com is an official Panasonic site, is it? - although the info does look accurate for that PZ85U model.

3:3 pulldown is a marketing term that means each frame of 24fps video is refreshed on the screen 3X to reach 72HZ. The term 2:2 pulldown cadence is talking about the process of converting film to 50HZ PAL and SECAM. So far I have not seen anyone use 2:2 pulldown cadence to mean 48HZ but the process of detecting 24fps from PAL and SECAM video sources. With 2:2 pulldown 24fps film is slightly increased in speed to two interlaced 25fps video frames and then distributed over 50 PAL fields.
Thanks for the global Panasonic link, the USA link does not have that information. Since this list is only for US models I was not looking at the global website. I did email Panasonic a few days ago, I would like to know what refresh rate the Plasma’s are going to use.
These displays have not been released yet and the finally specs could change but there is a 95% chance the THX certified Panasonics use the multiplies of the original frame methods. I would be in shock if a THX certified display did not properly display 1080P/24.

I most likely will add the Panasonics to the list after further information on refresh rates etc. It took several months after the Sony 120HZ displays were released before I added them to the list.
Another entire line I am considering adding to the list is the high end Nuvision line. The product literature mentions that the displays have automatic 3:2 (NTSC) and 2:2 (PAL and SECAM) film cadence detection and a 1080P/24 input. One of the displays was already added to the list after it was verified to have a 72HZ refresh rate when a 1080P/24 input was applied.

Nuvision never replied to my email so their entire product line is still pending possibly being added to the list.
Here is the original link on the Nuvision post

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12825824&postcount=90
I guess I could always go back to the old system where every 1080P/24 display is added to the list and then some will end up being removed from the list once a professional review is published that shows they do not display 1080P/24 at multiplies of the original frame. The list becomes less accurate under that system.
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post #21 of 349
2/20/08 at 10:30pm
Thread Starter 
Example of a 120HZ display that does not use 5:5 pulldown (120HZ) or 4:4 pulldown (96HZ) for 1080P/24 material. This Toshiba will not be added to the list.
Quote
Curiously, ClearFrame also had the negative effect of introducing slight flickering noise in areas of fine detail during camera pans such as the Vatican wall scene from Mission: Impossible III or a moving crane shot over trees in the church-fair sequence from Hot Fuzz. Toshiba confirmed that, with ClearFrame switched on, the TV performs frame interpolation even when fed a 1080p/24 signal. That's counter to displaying each frame multiple times a simpler technique that some other TVs apply. So ClearFrame processing was the likely culprit here.
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hdtvs/2474/toshiba-regza-cinema-series-52lx177-52-inch-lcd-hdtv-page3.html
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post #22 of 349
2/20/08 at 10:33pm
Thread Starter 
More documented evidence why some Sony displays are on the list and why currently no Toshiba displays are on the list.

According to page 39 of the winter 2008 Perfect Vision magazine the Sony KDL-40XBR4 refreshes 1080P/24 material at 120HZ. According to page 42 of the winter 2008 Perfect Vision magazine the Toshiba 46LX177 also displays 1080P/24 material at 120HZ but the Perfect Vision magazine has made it clear in the specification section on page 42 that the Toshiba uses a 3:2 pulldown process in which 1080P/24 material is converted to 60HZ first before being converted to 120HZ. Using a 3:2 pulldown process with 1080P/24 has no benefit when it comes to reducing judder,etc. Since Toshiba has chosen to use the 3:2 pulldown process instead of a 5:5 pulldown process this is why the Toshiba displays are not included on the list along with many other companies that have choosen to not use multiplies of the original frame when displaying 1080P/24 material. No displays that use 3:2 pulldown when a 1080P/24 signal is applied are included on the list.
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post #23 of 349
2/20/08 at 10:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Droosh View Post

You can add the new 120Hz Toshiba LCDs that come out next month. Their literature calls out suppot for 1080p/24 using true 5:5 mutiples. All this and 14-bit processing on a 10-bit panel. I'll probably buy the 52 incher. Can't wait to see it!

I did not see the 5:5 pulldown mentioned anywhere in the Toshiba press release for the new 120HZ 14-bit processing panel.
http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/news/new...asp?newsid=179

If you can provide a link from the Toshiba site that mentions 5:5 pulldown I will be happy to include the Toshiba on the list. I will be looking for a professional review on the new display when it is released.
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post #24 of 349
2/20/08 at 10:42pm
Thread Starter 
Samsung Plasma's still are displaying 1080P/24 on the screen at 60HZ using a 3:2 pulldown process and will not be added to the list

Samsung FP-T5884 Plasma TV info

Quote
Unfortunately, the set converts 1080p/24 to 60Hz for display by applying 3:2 pulldown, eliminating the benefit of having a 1080p/24 source. There aren't many plasmas (or other displays) that show 1080p/24 correctlythat is, at a multiple of 24Hz, which results in smoother motion from film-based content.

http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/208sam884/
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post #25 of 349
2/20/08 at 10:43pm
Thread Starter 
All of the Mitsubishi 144 and 244 series displays do not use the multiplies of the original frame method to display 1080P/24 but use a 3:2 pulldown method..

Quote

“Mitsubishi calls this "Smooth120Hz," and it's available only on the company's 144- and 244-series sets. It doubles video's standard 60Hz frame rate to 120Hz, which is claimed to produce less motion blur (a particular weakness of LCD flat panel displays). The added frame is not simply repeated, but interpolated using a Mitsubishi-developed algorithm.”

“The set will also accept and display a 1080p/24 source, such ad Blu-ray or HD DVD. However, rather than the optimum technique of upconverting 1080p/24 to 1080p/120 directly, to match the native 120Hz frame rate of the set, 1080p/24 inputs are first converted to 1080p/60 by adding 3/2 pulldown. The set then handles the signal as it would any 1080p/60 input by frame-doubling it to1080p/120. “
Source for the quote and the review of one of the 144 series displays can be found at this link
http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/1107mits46144/
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post #26 of 349
2/20/08 at 10:49pm
Thread Starter 
Sony LCD 120HZ screen true 5:5 pulldown information

For 1080P/24 to be refreshed correctly at multiplies of the original frame on the Sony's you must turn off Motion Enhancer.Turning on Motion Enhancer at the HDMI input where the 1080P/24 BLU-RAY or HD-DVD player is connected will result in interpolation of new frames instead of repeating each frame multiply times.
The main benefit of the Motion Enhancer is for 60HZ sources to have reduced flicker and look smoother. Also if one wants to use the Motion Enhancer for 1080P/24 material they can experience some improvements once and a while. The downside to the Motion Enhancer being turned on is that it can sometimes cause artifacts since the Motion Enhancer does not work correctly 100% of the time. Some of the problems that the Motion Enhancer can cause are a halo around objects and Motion Enhancer can make the image flow look unnatural.Also with the Motion Enhancer turned on 1080P/24 film material can sometimes look like 60HZ video since it makes things look smooth.

LCD's are improving in quality but other display technologies like Plasma's offer faster response times and better black levels compared to LCD's.

QUOTE
One of the weaknesses of LCDs has been motion blur; the LCD elements simply do not respond to fast changes in the image as quickly as do other display technologies (CRT is the best in this respect, followed closely by plasma).

Quote
There is still plenty of room for improvement, of course. The ideal (well, my ideal, at least) is the ability of a totally black screen image to meld so seamlessly into a set's black bezel in a darkened room that you can't tell if the set is on or off. But of the commercially available flat panel sets I've seenLCD or plasmaonly the new Pioneer plasmas, and to a lesser extent the latest Panasonic plasmas, approach this ideal, and none has yet reached it.

Here is the link to the review of the Sony KDL-46XBR4 LCD
http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/907sonyxbr4/index.html

QUOTE

Converting a 1080p/60 or 1080p/24 source to 1080p/120 requires simulating the additional frames in some way, since they are not in the source. There are three ways to do this: interpolation of new frames, repeating the original frame multiple times, or making every other repeated frame a black frame. Motionflow creates these addition frames by the first methodtemporal interpolation.

If the source does not contain 3/2 pulldown, such as a 1080p/60 video-originated source or a 1080p/24 film-based source from a Blu-ray or HD DVD player, Motionflow adds either one interpolated frame (1080p/60) or four interpolated frames (1080p/24) to each source frame to reach the 120Hz refresh rate required by the set's 120Hz operation. If you turn the Motion Enhancer off, each source frame is simply repeated as many times as needed to get to 120Hz, with no interpolation.

This entire 1080P/24 issue and motion settings with 120HZ displays keeps getting more complicated. I had to read the above review link several times and do some more research to see what is going on. I get the feeling the average consumer is going to get confused with all of these new settings on the Sony's and other displays in the future that have a 120HZ refresh rates. Gone are the days when one could just purchase a TV and turn it on with out making major adjustments. If the display is setup wrong one can experience more judder and flicker then with their existing display. The settings are very important.
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post #27 of 349
2/20/08 at 11:22pm
Thread Starter 
1080P/60 only displays and some 720P displays still offer an excellent picture quality when connected to a BLU-RAY player. This list is for someone that is interested in displays that bypasses the 3:2 pulldown process when using a 1080P/24 BLU-RAY player. If one already owns an excellent 1080P display with only a 1080P/60 input it might not be worth upgrading. Issues like ANSI contrast ratio, color accuracy and resolution are more important issues then properly displaying 1080P/24 at multiplies of the original frame rate. The main benefit of owning a true 1080P//24 display is film based material from BLU-RAY players will look more like film compared to 60HZ video. Also some displays or external processors have 3:2 (NTSC) and 2:2 (PAL) pulldown detection and can decode the 24fps from NTSC, PAL, and SECAM sources and upconvert the image to 1080P/24. Of course the BLU-RAY source material looks better then upconverting a 480I DVD to 1080P/24.

Any of these BLU-RAY PLAYERS on this link have 1080P/24 output feature to take full advantage of the native 1080P/24 signal on 99% of all BLU-RAY discs

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13172977#post13172977
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post #28 of 349
2/21/08 at 2:42pm
This post has been linked from an article on engadgethd.com

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/02/21...splay-1080p24/

Look out bandwidth
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post #29 of 349
2/21/08 at 2:53pm
Hmm - in another forum (back in November 2007) you mentioned you'd test the Mitsubishi Diamond Series once it's in the US. I have the 73833 series and wondered if you'd tested that series yet.
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post #30 of 349
2/21/08 at 2:54pm
The Samsung 71F series also properly does 24P when set its "AMP" setting is set to "OFF".
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