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Displays that support 1080p/24 signal at multiplies of the original frame rate - Page 2

post #31 of 349
2/21/08 at 3:01pm
Well great, I guess now I need to replace my Sony KDL-46V2500 now.
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post #32 of 349
2/21/08 at 3:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

If you would provided a official link from Panasonic or a link to a professional review that proves the commercial Panasonics bypass the 3:2 pulldown process

That's the point: there's nothing to "bypass". You don't seem to fully understand how these monitors work, I'm afraid. It's NOT a TV set.

Quote:
when a 1080P/24 signal is applied I will be more then happy to add them to the list.

We did that. You chose to ignore it. There's nothing more we can do IMO.
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post #33 of 349
2/21/08 at 3:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmeader View Post

The Samsung 71F series also properly does 24P when set its "AMP" setting is set to "OFF".

This was my understanding as well. Wasn't this provided in the latest firmware update?
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post #34 of 349
2/21/08 at 4:10pm
What about the Samsung HLT 89 Series? Example : HLT5689S
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post #35 of 349
2/21/08 at 4:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by T2k View Post

That's the point: there's nothing to "bypass". You don't seem to fully understand how these monitors work, I'm afraid. It's NOT a TV set.

It may not be a TV set, but most monitors work at a default of 60hz. "I don't see judder" is not really proof. Manufacturer documentation, or lab verified testing would normally be considered proof.
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post #36 of 349
2/21/08 at 5:03pm
I believe the westinghouse tx-42f430s accepts a 1080p/24hz signal through HDMI.

Am I correct?
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post #37 of 349
2/21/08 at 5:10pm
for the xbr4s, if I turn off motion enhancer what should I have cinemtion set: off, auto1, auto2.
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post #38 of 349
2/21/08 at 5:13pm
What about Sony Bravia W3000 series?


The Sony web site mentions no difference in the specs between those models on the list and the W3000. I sure don't detect any 3:2 pulldown watching 24p content; and I did notice the jidders and vibrating letterbox borders with the Toshiba HD-A30 2.0 firmware which messed up 1080p/24 output.

Each TV on the Sony site, including the W3000, says:

Quote:
24p True Cinema (24p Input Capability)

Many movies are filmed at 24 frames per second (fps) and prime time TV programs are recorded at 24p. Seizing on an opportunity, some studios are taking a purist approach and encoding high definition video content such as Blu-ray Disc in 24p. Sony wisely takes advantage of this by including 24p output capability on our Blu-ray Disc players as well as including 24p input capability select 2007 BRAVIA TVs. The benefit Images are smooth and natural looking. Once you experience 24p video it will be hard to view video without it.
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post #39 of 349
2/21/08 at 5:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkilian View Post

It may not be a TV set, but most monitors work at a default of 60hz.

Errr, no, in fact they don't. They work where you set them - with the arrival of LCD flickering is not really an issue anymore but it does not mean they don't have a range where they can sync.
Normal multiscan monitors have a specified range where they work - even the everyday el cheapo 19" Dell etc.
In the case of the PF10-series it is 48-100Hz.

Secondly these professional broadcast monitors are made with pluggable/swappable IO boards which are pretty much a complete system on a board - Panasonic offers even WiFi media player for these slots. It's in the docs and been confirmed several ways that different boards support different formats/resolutions/framerates/refresh rates etc.

I suggest you to read the relevant documentation, it's all there.

Quote:


"I don't see judder" is not really proof. Manufacturer documentation, or lab verified testing would normally be considered proof.

Did you read the original or the topic? If you did I'm afraid you need to read it again - it's all there including links to tests with a VP50 etc.

PS: mfr docs versus "lab verified testing"... now that's funny.
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post #40 of 349
2/21/08 at 6:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLskydiver View Post

What about Sony Bravia W3000 series?


The Sony web site mentions no difference in the specs between those models on the list and the W3000. I sure don't detect any 3:2 pulldown watching 24p content; and I did notice the jidders and vibrating letterbox borders with the Toshiba HD-A30 2.0 firmware which messed up 1080p/24 output.

Each TV on the Sony site, including the W3000, says:

The W Series are 60hz displays. They perform 3:2 pulldown on 24fps sources.
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post #41 of 349
2/21/08 at 6:08pm
What about the Samsung LN-T4669F model? Does it properly accept 24p?

It also has the Auto Motion Plus and 120Hz refresh rate like the Sammy 71F and 81F models.
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post #42 of 349
2/21/08 at 6:46pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by burieddeep View Post

What about the Samsung LN-T4669F model? Does it properly accept 24p?

It also has the Auto Motion Plus and 120Hz refresh rate like the Sammy 71F and 81F models.

I wish I had an answer regarding the 120HZ Samsung displays. As of right now I do not know how they handle the 1080P/24 signal. I will be watching for a review to see if they use the multiplies of the original frame method.
When 1080P/24 input compatible displays first appeared on the market companies like Pioneer and few others all made displays that properly display 1080P/24 at the original frame rate. Then to cut cost and make 1080P displays more affordable many manufactories decided to start making displays that converted 1080P/24 to 60HZ instead of using the multiplies of the original frame method.
The ideal solution to this issue would be for someone to try and get the consumer electronics manufactories to agree on labeling displays with words like “Native 24fps refresh rate” or some other name when the display is able to display at multiplies of the original frame rate.


Here are some of the locations that I get my professional reviews from

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/recentadditions/

http://www.hometheatermag.com/recentadditions/

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/archive.asp?section_id=59&article_id=0

http://www.widescreenreview.com/eq_search.php

From time to time as more information is learned about a display it can end up being removed or added to the list.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=997138
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post #43 of 349
2/21/08 at 7:07pm
Great list! Though they do rescale to 768p, and thus aren't on this particular list, the Pioneer 5080HD, 4280HD, Pioneer Elite 1150HD, and Elite 950HD have 1080p/24 inputs with Advanced Pure Cinema 3:3 (72Hz) pulldown just like the Pioneer 1080p models listed, they just can't do 1:1/dot by dot 1080p.
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post #44 of 349
2/21/08 at 7:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffp1 View Post

I believe the westinghouse tx-42f430s accepts a 1080p/24hz signal through HDMI.

Am I correct?

Yes Westinghouse makes a few 1080P displays like the TX-42f430s that will accept a 1080P/24 input. All the Westinghouse displays then use a 3:2 pulldown process to display 1080P/24 on the screen at 60HZ.
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post #45 of 349
2/21/08 at 7:15pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slumpey326 View Post

for the xbr4s, if I turn off motion enhancer what should I have cinemtion set: off, auto1, auto2.

I do not own the xbr4 display but it may be simialr to the SXRD for some settings.
Settings update on the Sony KDS-60A3000, KDS-55A3000, and KDS-50A3000.




There is a filter mode on the Sony SXRD rear projectors that softens the picture (resolution). In order to get full 1080P resoultion the Sony's need to be placed in standard or Vivid mode. The Cinema and custom mode softens the picture.

QUOTE from February 2008 Home Theater magazine page 69.

In the case of this TV, we picked Cinema mode. Turns out, a filter was applied to this and Custom mode that rather drastically softened the image. It wasn't until after the Face Off that I discovered that the Standard and Vivid modes had full 1080p resolution. Therefore, if you have one of these TVs, use the Standard mode and match the settings from the Cinema mode (that is, lower the color temperature, turn off all the enhancement stuff, and put it in the Standard Color Space mode). This way, you'll have the accuracy of Cinema mode, plus the detail of the Standard mode.
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post #46 of 349
2/21/08 at 7:17pm
Thread Starter 
Sony SXRD KDS-60A3000, KDS-55A3000, and KDS-50A3000 refresh rate info

As mentioned before in another post Sony no longer makes rear projectors and once stores run out of them they are gone for good. A professional review by Thomas J Norton was on the KDS-50A3000 over at UltimateAVmag.com. The 60, 55, and 50 inch Sony’s listed above in blue use the exact same instruction manual and are exactly the same accept for screen size, weight and dimensions.
All 3 rear projectors refresh 1080P/24 material at 96HZ by doing a 4:4 pulldown when both motion enhancer and Motion Naturalizer are turned off. 60HZ material is refreshed at 120HZ.
Quote
“Motion blur is not as significant an issue on an SXRD (or LCoS) display as it is in many flat panel LCDs, but it is more prevalent than on a DLP or plasma set. As one of the new 120Hz displays, the Sony KDS-50A3000 offers two features designed to minimize motion blur: Motion Enhancer and Motion Naturalizer.”
“Sony's literature and manual are both vague in describing what each of these features does. But I scoped out a bit more detail from Sony HQ. With both of them turned off, the set converts a 60 frames per second (fps) source (a 60Hz refresh rate) to 120fps by simply repeating a each frame a second time. For a 24fps source, the set repeats each frame four times to produce 96fps.


Some of the reasons why LCOS (SXRD) is better quality then LCD

Quote
“SXRD and LCoS designs offer a number of advantages over plain LCD. Their panels are much thinner and thus less prone to generating motion lag, even though the light passes through the panel twice. And in LCoS and SXRD all the electronic circuits are located behind the reflective surface, where they don't interfere with the layout of the pixels. In LCD panels the control wires must pass through the spaces between the pixels, which makes for wider gaps and a more obvious screen door effect in the image.
If SXRD and LCoS are superior realizations of LCD technology, why has LCD become dominant? Two reasons. First, reflective technologies like LCoS and SXRD can't be used in flat panel designs. Second, LCoS and SXRD panels are far more complex than basic LCDs. It took years before manufacturers learned to produce them economically, reliably, and in quantity.
As with all SXRD displays, the KDS-50A3000 uses three separate SXRD panels, one each for red, green, and blue. So unlike single-chip DLP designs there is no rotating color wheel to generate rainbow artifacts.”
Link to review
http://ultimateavmag.com/rearprojectiontvs/1207sony3000/index.html
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post #47 of 349
2/21/08 at 7:25pm
Thread Starter 
The Pioneer 720P (actual 768P) Kuro PDP-5080HD has more detail and better picture quality then most 1080P Plasma and LCD flat panels

By far high-end front projectors offer the best in picture quality over any other display. Of course not everyone has a dedicated dark home theater room so a front projector is not a option for some. Flat panel plasma's are the second best option. If one can not afford the price of one of the 1080P Pioneer Plasma screens then owning one of the 720P Pioneer Plasma is a good choice. A 720P Pioneer Plasma has more detail then most 1080P flat panel Plasma and LCD displays on the market. The reason for this is the ANSI contrast ratio on the kuro 720P Pioneer Plasmas is more then 11 times that of some other displays and more then double the next closes display according to Home Theater magazine's face off. The contrast ratio on the Pioneer 720P (768P actual) is so good that it offers so much more detail in contrast that it does not need resolution to appear detailed. Every Pioneer from 720P to 1080P every made that offers a 1080P/24 input option refreshes the image correctly on the screen at 72HZ. 720P Pioneer's downconvert 1080P/24 to 720P quality (around 768P actual)
Resolution is only one factor of the picture quality. Most people seat so far away from the screen that they can not see the difference between 1080P and 720P unless they own a 60 inch display or larger. 1080P does look much better then 720P if you seat close enough to the screen. Home Theater magazine ran a face off between 6 1080P displays and 1 Pioneer 720P display and by far the Pioneer had the best picture quality do to its awesome black levels. ANSI contrast ratio's can sometimes offer more detail in the picture then resolution. This list still will only include 1080P models but the fact is some 720P models will out perform 1080P in picture quality.

Quote From Home theater magazine. February 2008 page 74 and 76 (regarding the Pioneer PDP-5080HD)

Quote
the PDP-5080HD had the highest contrast ratio in the Face Off, in some cases by several times. Its ANSI contrast ratio was 11 times that of the Samsung and more then double that of the next closest display. Onscreen, this was completely visible.

Your eye is fooled into seeing detail when it is really seeing contrast. Think of what you would use to see detail, say, a wrinkle on a face. You see the wrinkle because it's in shadow compared to the rest of the face. Well, on the PDP-5080HD, that shadow was so much more realistic that it didn't need resolution to appear detailed. Seeing as it's highly doubtful you'd ever sit three times the picture height away from a 50-inch TV (less then 6 feet, in this case) 768P is more then enough.
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post #48 of 349
2/21/08 at 8:46pm
Is there any specific reason you keep posting these silly marketing stuff, that's what I'm thinking about...
Seriously, this Pioneer "a Pioneer 720p is more than 1080p" is just downright hilarious, let alone being off topic.
OTOH I barely can see anything, thanks to your custom colors which makes most of your posts unreadable with any darker AVS theme...
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post #49 of 349
2/21/08 at 10:25pm
+1

While we appreciate the info you are trying to collate here, the OT blurbs and extreme text formatting are detracting from your message. Plain text with the very occasional use of BOLD should suffice for just about everything, really. Cheers.
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post #50 of 349
2/21/08 at 10:33pm
Someone posted at Engadget that the W and V series had this feature.


The KDL-46V3000's HDMI port also accepted 1080p input at 24 Hz (1080p24), and Sony claimed the TV automatically displays this video format using a 48 Hz refresh rate (24 Hz x 2 - an even multiple) that eliminates the shaking/wobbling effect known as judder that is caused when 24p material is converted for display on a typical (60 Hz refresh rate) HDTVthe telecine process. Viewing examinations using 24p video material confirmed the KDL-46V3000 did reduce judder producing admirably smooth panning shots, however, the reduced refresh rate (48 Hz) did introduce additional flicker into some vertically orientated details as the camera panned. Standard-definition video via the component input exhibited an excessive 7 percent overscan that unnecessarily softened the picture due to the lost detail.

This is from a PCMAG review of the Sony Bravia KDL-46V3000

Cant post a link, im not chatty enough without 3 posts no link, so add this to PCmag.com/ --->article2/0,2704,2210884,00.asp
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post #51 of 349
2/21/08 at 10:58pm
Of what benefit is this capability for the typical viewer?
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post #52 of 349
2/22/08 at 12:30am
Toshiba Z series and ZF using 5:5 pull down.
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post #53 of 349
2/22/08 at 2:22am
If I'm sending a 1080p/60 signal to my Sony XBR.. How does it convert it to 1080p/24? what is it doing to regain cadence? does it simply ignore created frames and pull5:5? Whats going on there??
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post #54 of 349
2/22/08 at 5:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post

What about the Samsung HLT 89 Series? Example : HLT5689S

I would also like to know this- for the HLT 87 and 89 series.
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post #55 of 349
2/22/08 at 5:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrstevens421 View Post

The W Series are 60hz displays. They perform 3:2 pulldown on 24fps sources.

What is the source of that information? Sure seems more likely to me that it refreshes at 48 or maybe even 72hz.

I have my computer hooked up to my W3000 via HDMI at 1080p/60; but I just checked my display properties and the two available "screen refresh rate"s that this "monitor" can display (with "hide modes that this monitor can't display" checked) are 60hz and 24hz.
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post #56 of 349
2/22/08 at 7:16am
When I connect my Samsung 5084 1080p Plasma to my PC via DVI to HDMI cable, I have option monitor settings to set refresh rate to:

23hz
24hz
29hz, Interlaced
30hz, Interlaced
59hz
60hz

And you definetly feel/see the 24hz "flicker" when set to that.
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post #57 of 349
2/22/08 at 9:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wryker View Post

Hmm - in another forum (back in November 2007) you mentioned you'd test the Mitsubishi Diamond Series once it's in the US. I have the 73833 series and wondered if you'd tested that series yet.

Bueller? Bueller?
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post #58 of 349
2/22/08 at 11:32am
on a film-based 1080i/60 signal My reciever deinterlaces and outputs a 1080p/60 signal. I'm sending the 1080p/60 to mt Sony xbr4 120Hz. My question is how does the TV handle this signal? thanks in advance for any input.
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post #59 of 349
2/22/08 at 11:39am
@ HDTV1080P24;
Keep this stuff up, as a Home Theater Sales Rep. I find all this stuff fascinating and difficult to find a list like you have put together and I thank you for that. I wish that manufacturers would be more straight forward as to what their products are capable of doing. Confusing to the salespeople, like learning a new language to the customer.

As a side note, the new Toshiba's this spring (xv540 and xv550 series) both claim 5:5 pulldown and film stabilization from reports at CES 2008. I went to Toshiba's website (USA) and searched for xv540 and found this article. (I haven't posted 3 times so I can't provide the link...dumb) At the top I notice there is a media contact with phone number and e-mail.

Good luck with your research and let me know what you find, Thanks
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post #60 of 349
2/22/08 at 11:39am
okay that was my 3rd post....sweet

http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/news/new...asp?newsid=190

there we go!
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