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February 22nd - Blu-ray Backlash - Page 3

post #61 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawziecat View Post

Not too many have replied to this as it seems EXTREMELY controversial.

I have had perhaps a half dozen Sony products over the years. All were fine from a performance and design perspective. In fact they usually make pretty nice stuff.

However, for many years they were sold primarily through Sony Stores.
I came to appreciate that, while Sony were good products, I personally came to perceive them as poor value. Sony jealously guarded their prices and I found equal products were available from other manufacturers at lower cost.
I gravitated away from Sony over a period of years.

I also found it irritating personally that they saw fit to introduce a proprietary flash memory card . . . the so called "Memory Stick," instead of using the much more common CF memory cards. That to me is a typical Sony stunt . . . introduce a totally unneeded proprietary medium.

Sony TVs likely still use this Memory Stick medium over the much more common SD format. Correct me if I'm wrong about that. I don't have any Memory Sticks but, as a digital photographer, I have a slew of CF and SD cards and "I don't need no steekin' Memory Sticks."

I did not get bent out of shape over the root kit fiasco as so many did but it certainly gave Sony a huge black eye and received a lot of very negative publicity in the mainstream media.

So, yes, I do rather actively avoid Sony products now. The Sony name is synonymous with "overpriced" IMO. That's why I "dislike" Sony.

But, "evil," as some call them? Nah . . . I never considered them evil. I reserve that for banks, insurance companies and politicians.

I'll be buying Blu-Ray eventually. . . but the player will likely have a name other than Sony on the box. I won't lose sleep over the fact they get a few bucks off the licensing.

It's not just the proprietary technology like memory sticks that change with EVERY product year (meaning that the consumer has to repurchase the NEW memory stick EVERY year due to it's new format but not upgraded performance), but the fact that they've been hit repeatedly for price fixing in areas such as CD sales and video tape (the EU recently hit them with a nearly billion Euro fine for this when they were the only company that wouldn't admit to it).

It's also the anti-consumer stance with the lack of fair use rights that they've taken when they state that the consumer doesn't have the right to use their products in more than the format that it was purchased for. Sony has gone on record as saying that a consumer doesn't have the right to make copies of a CD for personal use for the home and the car, for instance when the supreme court has disagreed.

There are many other reasons that I can come up with, but they all pretty much boil down to the fact that Sony is a vertical monopoly. The company holds the content production studios and manufactures the hardware that allows the consumer to record this content. These two are at odds, and Sony has NOT come to terms with this dynamic. Thus, they cannot decide what to do. They make a recorder, then want to strip the ability to record the content. There is a conflict of interest. This is the problem and this is why Sony will continue to be anti-consumer.
post #62 of 146
I think some of the anti sony hate shown on this forum is just a bunch of cry baby excuses.

1. Toshiba artificially subsidized players low cost, everyone knows this. How do you sustain almost a half billion dollar loss if you are selling product for a profit? You sell it for less than it cost to build to obtain market share. That is what Toshiba did, and the gamble did not pay off.

2. Some of you here say you don't like the fact that Sony bought the studios support. Why are you turning a blind eyes to the very public Paramount payoff, the offers to Warner and Fox from the HD DVD side? This is hypocrytical, and many here do not mind being this way.

3. Adopting early costs. If you do not like the cost, wait. Don't crap on something because you are use to paying artifically low prices, prices that were not sustainable in the long run. Toshibas loss proves this.

4. If Toshiba was working on TL51, then the format is not finished as many are stating here. Bluray profiles can be an advantage when properly explained. If you do not watch extra's and do not want to pay for the extra circuitry, buy a profile 1.0 player. If extras are important get a profile 1.1 If you are really into interactivity, get a profile 2.0 player. You do not have to pay for what you don't use. When almost all players are profile 1.1 and 2.0, this is a non issue that cannot be used as a talking point.

5. For those of you who hate sony, but hated the format war as well, then Microsoft is who you should be angry with. Toshiba and Sony could have settled this easily, but it was Microsoft that encourage Toshiba to play hardball with the BDA, and they lost a ton of cash for it. Microsoft didn't lose a thing. Microsoft is the root of this whole war, and that is where your anger should be directed at.

6. AVS used to be the premiere forum for technical information. During this war it was home to the largest propaganda campaign on the net that has turned AVS into a wasteland. This thing is over, and all of us should grow up, act like adults, and stop taking all of this so personally. This was not a consumer fight, it was a corporate fight. Some here were used to the hilt to fight for a corporate war, and should feel pretty silly now that its over.

7. Those who talk about how bluray folks behaved need a reality check. You have some folks here spreading misinformation on replication yields, that later you find out the inside information they say they have has been manipulated to represent a worst case scenario, and not reality. Now that this war is over, you are finding out so many lies have been spread that were very damaging to the consumer.

8. Alot of folks here have not been telling the truth about the quality of HD DVD players. I owned three different HD DVD players, of which none of them could playback a HD DVD without losing dialog sync,or freezing and locking up. Then you have others who have said that their players are working flawlessly. This is a quality control issue which is major, and the fact that so many were hiding this, or ignoring is very bad for the consumer. Those that wanted to change the subject were very quick to point out BR players having BD+ and BD-java issues. Not very cool.

9. Some folks will never learn to grow up and move on. HD DVD lost, no use in the sour grapes, or the anti sony sentiments. Sony does not own bluray, the BDA does now. Trying to put up downloading, and put down bluray is counterproductive. Downloads are not ready for prime time, and many folks will not take downloads over disc.

10. Alot of folks took this way to personally. Alot of folks. This was a very nasty format war, that pitted friend against friend, and basically tore up alot of places. Alot of folks got famous by loosely using the word "insider" when they had a tidbit of information. Some where very oportunistic, using this war as a self promotion, others too gulible to vet and logically think out what was fed to them, and others just caught up in the crossfire. Now that this war is over, alot of these folks are suffering from post game depression because all of a sudden there is no drama to keep them in the spotlight.

I have no faith that most will grow up, and get behind the format that won. Some would rather us have no HDM on disc than to let bluray succeed in the marketplace. I believe for months to come there will still be folks here bashing bluray because their agenda, and where their future fortunes are, is in downloading.
post #63 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence View Post

I think some of the anti sony hate shown on this forum is just a bunch of cry baby excuses.

1. Toshiba artificially subsidized players low cost, everyone knows this. How do you sustain almost a half billion dollar loss if you are selling product for a profit? You sell it for less than it cost to build to obtain market share. That is what Toshiba did, and the gamble did not pay off.

2. Some of you here say you don't like the fact that Sony bought the studios support. Why are you turning a blind eyes to the very public Paramount payoff, the offers to Warner and Fox from the HD DVD side? This is hypocrytical, and many here do not mind being this way.
.
.
.

1. The players cost a bit over $100 to make, so there really isn't a Toshiba subsidy, rather they are not taking much profit.
2. Both sides bought studios. BD consortium bought more. I am looking forward for the consumer to be blamed when neither side sells many HD movies.
3. Toshiba didn't lose based upon price. They lost because they got shut out of the majority of the studios.
5. Total supposition.
6. Humans being humans get all uppity when others aren't impressed by their expensive new toy. Both sides were like that.
7. Excellent point.
8. Have you noticed that all electronics are junk now? Quality standards are way down. But so are prices.
9. Sony is to the BluRay group as the United States is to NATO. Strange how the 800lb gorilla always gets their way in the playground.
10. Another good point. I don't own HD-DVD. However, if I bought a player and movies over the holiday and discovered that my money was wasted because the keystone media company (Time Warner) was bought off I might be a little pissy.

I still think that there is nothing to be happy about.

Yay, we get to pay more for the same thing! Yay.
post #64 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnabney View Post

Hi. I'm Joe SixPack.

What I really want to say is, when will those BluRay players cost about $100-150? I can afford that.

If Sony has anything to do with it....

NEVER
post #65 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden Russell View Post

Today's Show

We had planned some very different content for today's show, but something very strange happened this week. There seems to be a huge backlash against Blu-ray for some reason. It caught us somewhat by surprise, but the trend is too strong to ignore, so we just have to talk about it. If the war really is over, and by most accounts it is, why aren't people rejoicing in the peaceful times ahead? Why can't we put the differences behind us and move on to soak in all our movies in HD on one kind of disc, and maybe enjoy a little wide scale adoption at the same time? more...

Listen now - mp3

Dear Mr. Russell:

My question to you would be in the nature of why would you think people would be rejoicing over the elimination of what many perceive to be a cheaper, equally reliable format for a more expensive competitor?

If you read the three pages (and counting) of responses to your thread, I believe you will find sufficient answers to your questions.
post #66 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnabney View Post

Hi. I'm Joe SixPack.

I have a decent job, two cars, two kids, a mortgage, and my wife has been gaining weight. I just bought one of those flatscreens. The salesman said I can hang it on my wall, but I just put it on my old TV stand. It made all of my DVDs look really good. I have been buying DVDs for six years now and I have over a hundred. Some of them I haven't unwrapped yet because I haven't had time to watch them. They were on special at Best Buy so I just bought an arm-load of them.
Anyway, I heard the news talking about two high definition standards that are going to replace DVDs. Apparently you have to choose one because the ones that play both types cost almost a thousand dollars. I almost bought one of those HD-DVD things around Christmas time, but my brother told me not to because I didn't want to choose the wrong one. My parents bought a Betamax and a lot of my friends made fun of me in high school because we had the wrong player. But now I hear that HD-DVD is DOA, so I am glad I made the right choice to wait. Unfortunately I can't afford $400 for a new BluRay player and the stores are asking crazy-money for movies. $30 for movie? I only buy them when they are $15 or less. Do those BluRay movies look that much better? My TV says that it is 720P. Is that the same as BluRay? How different will it look? My DVDs look a lot better on the new upconversion player my wife bought me for Christmas. It was only $50. Is that BluRay 8 times better? I also don't want to buy all my movies again. I have about 40 movies on both DVD and VHS and a dozen I also have on Beta, but those are in a box since my parents Beta player broke a long time ago. I don't want to start buying the same move again.

What I really want to say is, when will those BluRay players cost about $100-150? I can afford that. I even stopped buying DVDs and just rent movies from Redbox. I don't want to buy more DVDs if that format is the next one to go.


best post I have read to date and so true...I have heard this from people all around here and then some.I think what all the headlines should read is blu-ray won the battle but the war has just begun.Sony not one for helping out customers I think you will be lucky if blu-ray lasts another year or two before it's gone unless sony wants to lower thier prices and royalities on blu-ray...Not likely.
post #67 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnabney View Post

I still think that there is nothing to be happy about.

Yay, we get to pay more for the same thing! Yay.

Yep I agree it's amazing how people would think we would be happy about this no offense I and alot of other people are not going to ignore the purple elephant in the room.Sony isn't going fool anyone with this stuff.
post #68 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by wherryj View Post

....but Sony treats their CUSTOMERS poorly... Sony is not a company that you want to deal with if you are a CONSUMER.

Again, that may be your anecdotal opinion but worldwide Sony is consistently one of the most respected companies and brands. You don't become that by being anti-consumer.
post #69 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence View Post

I think some of the anti sony hate shown on this forum is just a bunch of cry baby excuses.

1. Toshiba artificially subsidized players low cost, everyone knows this. How do you sustain almost a half billion dollar loss if you are selling product for a profit? You sell it for less than it cost to build to obtain market share. That is what Toshiba did, and the gamble did not pay off.

4. If Toshiba was working on TL51, then the format is not finished as many are stating here. Bluray profiles can be an advantage when properly explained. If you do not watch extra's and do not want to pay for the extra circuitry, buy a profile 1.0 player. If extras are important get a profile 1.1 If you are really into interactivity, get a profile 2.0 player. You do not have to pay for what you don't use. When almost all players are profile 1.1 and 2.0, this is a non issue that cannot be used as a talking point.

5. For those of you who hate sony, but hated the format war as well, then Microsoft is who you should be angry with. Toshiba and Sony could have settled this easily, but it was Microsoft that encourage Toshiba to play hardball with the BDA, and they lost a ton of cash for it. Microsoft didn't lose a thing. Microsoft is the root of this whole war, and that is where your anger should be directed at.

6. AVS used to be the premiere forum for technical information. During this war it was home to the largest propaganda campaign on the net that has turned AVS into a wasteland. This thing is over, and all of us should grow up, act like adults, and stop taking all of this so personally. This was not a consumer fight, it was a corporate fight. Some here were used to the hilt to fight for a corporate war, and should feel pretty silly now that its over.

7. Those who talk about how bluray folks behaved need a reality check. You have some folks here spreading misinformation on replication yields, that later you find out the inside information they say they have has been manipulated to represent a worst case scenario, and not reality. Now that this war is over, you are finding out so many lies have been spread that were very damaging to the consumer.

8. Alot of folks here have not been telling the truth about the quality of HD DVD players. I owned three different HD DVD players, of which none of them could playback a HD DVD without losing dialog sync,or freezing and locking up. Then you have others who have said that their players are working flawlessly. This is a quality control issue which is major, and the fact that so many were hiding this, or ignoring is very bad for the consumer. Those that wanted to change the subject were very quick to point out BR players having BD+ and BD-java issues. Not very cool.

9. Some folks will never learn to grow up and move on. HD DVD lost, no use in the sour grapes, or the anti sony sentiments. Sony does not own bluray, the BDA does now. Trying to put up downloading, and put down bluray is counterproductive. Downloads are not ready for prime time, and many folks will not take downloads over disc.


I have no faith that most will grow up, and get behind the format that won. Some would rather us have no HDM on disc than to let bluray succeed in the marketplace. I believe for months to come there will still be folks here bashing bluray because their agenda, and where their future fortunes are, is in downloading.

I Have to disagree there is plent of reason to hate sony if you don't know you will in time.Lots of people hate microsoft are they cry babies too?I hate to say being into computers for 20 years I can say that microsoft pissed off people and it's hurt them and will continue to hurt them for years to come.Sony is no different.

1.the whole thing is profit loss to either company because not many people will get behind either one and still won't how long do you think BD will last my guess not long.

4.the verions of the players just sucks no one wants to have make sure they are buying the right one so everthing works come on at this price it should work period.

5.I don't like either one I people shouldn't spend money with either company but it's hard to do these but I personally keep it a minmum.But BD I won't buy don't need it either.

6.I don't think people will roll over and forget about alot of people don't like sony and it's not about growing up it's about warning others.atleast for some people anyway.

7.very true happened on both sides but that won't change.

8.Yep both had issues and still do that's why I don't believe this is good thing that blu-ray is only thing out because now you have nothing to compare it to basicly it's "take your beating like a man" type deal where now sony will care even less then they did before about fixing the problems.

9.Nope no reason to move on you don't think sony makes money of blu-ray rights simular to thx you bet they do that's why you will never see good prices of bluray media and bluray players.
post #70 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden Russell View Post

Today's Show

We had planned some very different content for today's show, but something very strange happened this week. There seems to be a huge backlash against Blu-ray for some reason. It caught us somewhat by surprise, but the trend is too strong to ignore, so we just have to talk about it. If the war really is over, and by most accounts it is, why aren't people rejoicing in the peaceful times ahead? Why can't we put the differences behind us and move on to soak in all our movies in HD on one kind of disc, and maybe enjoy a little wide scale adoption at the same time? more...

Listen now - mp3

The start of another us - them thread...great! We haven't had enough with the last 3578.
Thanks for clogging up the bandwith.
post #71 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by eganov View Post

Again, that may be your anecdotal opinion but worldwide Sony is consistently one of the most respected companies and brands. You don't become that by being anti-consumer.

Is price fixing video tape in the European Union something a respected company does? IS the ROOTKIT an "ANEDOTAL" issue? These are both WELL documented issues that you can find with web searches. Is this something that a "MOST RESESCTED company" would do?
It would appear that YOU are the one who is being anecdotal in YOUR opinion. Sony is living off of it's reputation and advertising. It has done MANY anti-consumer and anti-competitive things since aquiring it's motion picture and recording studios. It is only a matter of time before the consumers "see the light" and vote with their pocket books.
post #72 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCrackers View Post

I personally don't like the way they "won". The war was NOT decided by the consumer based on features. It was won in the back-deals in board rooms of very powerful corporations. These type of deals are usually bad for the consumer and good for the corporations.

Everyone is predicting lower prices now, but I think the opposite is true. Sony will hold there media prices as high as they can. They bought their monopoly and now we have to pay for it.


I agree 100% and was actually called a Microsoft/HD-DVD fanboy on another site because I feel Sony will increase their prices.

I own neither format, even though I leaned towards HD-DVD, my hometheater was all bought when it was discounted(i.e. I dont have the cash of some of you other guys )

I owned the PS one, the PS two, Xbox and now a 360.

What I feel makes Sony "evil"-

I purchased a Sony SDTV quite awhile back that came with a one year warranty 3 days out of warranty it fried, Sony was no help and were pretty much like "tough luck", which I have never had this problem with another manufacturer before. Working in a service industry I have seen us warranty things that were barely out of warranty no problem.

Secondly and the main reason-Star Wars Galaxies, I got in the 2nd week the game started and paid Sony 15 bucks a month to beta test a program that they finally admitted was fubared, which they couldnt hide especially when they completely remade the game after about 2 years.
post #73 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill941 View Post

I Have to disagree there is plent of reason to hate sony if you don't know you will in time.Lots of people hate microsoft are they cry babies too?I hate to say being into computers for 20 years I can say that microsoft pissed off people and it's hurt them and will continue to hurt them for years to come.Sony is no different.

Actually, I don't hate Sony, and I have no reason to. When I get a reason, I will probably feel like I feel about microsoft. Haven't got there yet.

Quote:


1.the whole thing is profit loss to either company because not many people will get behind either one and still won't how long do you think BD will last my guess not long.

Speculation with a bit of sour grapes. I bet your tune would be different if HD DVD was the winner. Hypocritical at best here.

Quote:


4.the verions of the players just sucks no one wants to have make sure they are buying the right one so everthing works come on at this price it should work period.

Well, you have that same problem with a HD DVD. You don't know if it will play the disc, or it won't. You don't know if yours is the good one, or the bad one. I have three HD DVD players, all with various forms of dysfunction. Even with its standards already established.

Quote:


5.I don't like either one I people shouldn't spend money with either company but it's hard to do these but I personally keep it a minmum.But BD I won't buy don't need it either.

Okay, but do you NEED HD DVD as well?? Or is this just more sour grapes?

Quote:


6.I don't think people will roll over and forget about alot of people don't like sony and it's not about growing up it's about warning others.atleast for some people anyway.

Warning them of what? That Sony will have to compete with Panasonic, Sharp, Onkyo and everyone else in the bluray market. While you are warning folks, warn them about how Vista is such a disaster and they shouldn't buy it. This is what I mean by pointing out ones short comings, while looking the other way on others.

Quote:


7.very true happened on both sides but that won't change.

So, folks are more immature than I thought if this is the case.

Quote:


8.Yep both had issues and still do that's why I don't believe this is good thing that blu-ray is only thing out because now you have nothing to compare it to basicly it's "take your beating like a man" type deal where now sony will care even less then they did before about fixing the problems.

This is a red herring of an arguement. The competition is still there, but its now behind one format. Sony has to compete with Panasonic, who has to compete with Pioneer, which has to compete with Sharp, which has to compete with Daewoo. Do you think that Toshiba is the only competition? So you believe its better to endanger HDM on disc just so the format war keeps Sony in check? That is rediculous and absurd. Now that we don't have a war, Sony has to compete with all of the other bluray manufacturers for my money. Whoever makes the best quality player, wins. The one with the least amount of problems wins. The one that has the best performance to value ratio wins. The competition between the manufacturers will raise the performance of all players, and the ones that are problem plagued will not sell. You do not need competition from two formats to acheive this. This is doomsday FUD at its best.

Quote:


9.Nope no reason to move on you don't think sony makes money of blu-ray rights simular to thx you bet they do that's why you will never see good prices of bluray media and bluray players.

I don't buy this. Its just rediculous. Sony is one of many manufacturers. Sony does not control the BDA. Sony is not the only one making players or selling software. Sony sets the price for ITS players, not anyone elses. Sony does not set the price of Disney software, Disney does. The BDA didn't didn't slash and burn their market, but Toshiba did. This blaming Sony for everything under the sun doesn't fly here. I am much better informed than this. If one sits down and logically thinks this through(and is not overly emotional), its is in the interest of the BDA that player and software prices do eventually come down. But many have lived too long in this artifically low price environment, and reality has all but escaped them. This is new stuff. New stuff always cost more than the old stuff. If you think prices are high, wait, but do not trash the format, there is nothing wrong with it. Don't trash Sony, they are one of many players in the market. I supported HD DVD. I bought three players, and over 170 titles. But the reality is Toshiba was outclassed, outgunned, and outsmarted by the BDA, and that is why they lost. They made very critical mistakes like listening to microsoft that has cost them hundreds of millions in losses. This is their burden to bare, not mine, not yours. People need to grow up and move on. The format war is over, the drama is over. If you are addicted to the drama, then you are going to need a twelve step program to get over it, but you have to get over it. That is reality. HD DVD is not coming back, there is no savior to raise it from the dead, so we all need to mend friendships, deal with reality, and make decision that are best for you without trashing bluray. If you don't want to buy it, just don't buy, but don't piss all over it.
post #74 of 146
I wonder if all this matters to the non-AVS world. (This debate, that is.)

I suspect that had HD DVD won it STILL would have a hard time replacing SD DVD. Blu ray will have an uphill battle.

Are there any corporate saints out there anyway?

I, for one, won't lose any sleep over it.

I'll just enjoy my disk-based High Def media.
post #75 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence View Post

I don't buy this. Its just rediculous. Sony is one of many manufacturers. Sony does not control the BDA. Sony is not the only one making players or selling software. Sony sets the price for ITS players, not anyone elses. Sony does not set the price of Disney software, Disney does. The BDA didn't didn't slash and burn their market, but Toshiba did. This blaming Sony for everything under the sun doesn't fly here. I am much better informed than this. If one sits down and logically thinks this through(and is not overly emotional), its is in the interest of the BDA that player and software prices do eventually come down. But many have lived too long in this artifically low price environment, and reality has all but escaped them. This is new stuff. New stuff always cost more than the old stuff. If you think prices are high, wait, but do not trash the format, there is nothing wrong with it. Don't trash Sony, they are one of many players in the market. I supported HD DVD. I bought three players, and over 170 titles. But the reality is Toshiba was outclassed, outgunned, and outsmarted by the BDA, and that is why they lost. They made very critical mistakes like listening to microsoft that has cost them hundreds of millions in losses. This is their burden to bare, not mine, not yours. People need to grow up and move on. The format war is over, the drama is over. If you are addicted to the drama, then you are going to need a twelve step program to get over it, but you have to get over it. That is reality. HD DVD is not coming back, there is no savior to raise it from the dead, so we all need to mend friendships, deal with reality, and make decision that are best for you without trashing bluray. If you don't want to buy it, just don't buy, but don't piss all over it.

I don't hd-dvd to come back I didn't blow any money on it and for good reason.I like HD wihich is BD for now but that will change in time.If you think that the format is good that's ok.I don't feel same nor do alot of people.

I think the whole thing is a bad idea hd or bd personally it's a lose-lose deal period.Nothing on either side worked correctly as it should and still doesn't and people should know that before they buy in.If you want to deal with problems go ahead.the average public won't.

I want to see some type of HD replace SD dvd but this isn't it.Unless they fix alot of things problem with that is Sony has a bad track record for this in the past only time will tell.I personally hate being a lab rat for stuff.It happens too often these days.BD, hd-dvd, vista,win98,winxp and a hundreds of other products just like this.The problem is WE accept it and it's sad. I have learned hopefully others will too.
post #76 of 146
This thread should have been locked and just used as an announcement... this is only going to spur more arguments that I, for one, am tired of.
post #77 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill941 View Post

I don't hd-dvd to come back I didn't blow any money on it and for good reason.I like HD wihich is BD for now but that will change in time.If you think that the format is good that's ok.I don't feel same nor do alot of people.

I think the whole thing is a bad idea hd or bd personally it's a lose-lose deal period.Nothing on either side worked correctly as it should and still doesn't and people should know that before they buy in.If you want to deal with problems go ahead.the average public won't.

I want to see some type of HD replace SD dvd but this isn't it.Unless they fix alot of things problem with that is Sony has a bad track record for this in the past only time will tell.I personally hate being a lab rat for stuff.It happens too often these days.BD, hd-dvd, vista,win98,winxp and a hundreds of other products just like this.The problem is WE accept it and it's sad. I have learned hopefully others will too.

Vista Ulitmate 64 bit lab rat here, it blows
post #78 of 146
HD DVD went to market first, had essentially the same quality product, sold it for less, offered SD/HD combo movies, and essentially lost the format war exclusively due to control of content.

Several people have mentioned payoffs to movie studios, and it appears both sides were guilty on that front. The main thing that concerns me (a little) about this entire format war is the fact that Sony OWNS several movie studios, and used their ownership of the studios to dictate format. Sony owns Disney, so there was never any way you were going to see Disney movies on anything but Blu Ray.

When a technology company starts buying the content companies, and then starts using their control of the content to force consumers to choose their technology, I start to get a little worried. Don't get me wrong, I'm not breaking out the aluminum foil hat or anything, but I'm a little uncomfortable with the precedent. Maybe it's just me......

I don't have hard feelings either way, as I'm not going to buy either format until I can afford to replace at least 2 of my players. I just can't justify paying 30 bucks for a disk and then not being able to watch it because one of the kids has the only TV with the BR player. For people like me, it's unfortunate that HD DVD did lose, as I would have considered buying one and getting the SD/HD dual format movies.

I do believe prices will come down eventually, as Sony won't be able to convert people like myself until they do. I think 150 is the magic number that will entice the mass market. Until then, their real competition is DVD, and they aren't close to winning that war any time soon.
post #79 of 146
Sony also owns Columbia TriStar and obviously Sony Pictures Home Entertainment.... a few heavy hitters to say the least, and as you said, like Disney, you would never see any of their movies on anything other than Blu Ray as well.
post #80 of 146
I don't get all of this negative talk about Sony and Blue Ray. I don't buy Sony because of their expensive HDTV prices and I had a bad experience with one of their SDTV's. I dont buy or rent DVD's so Blue Ray is not a concern to me.
post #81 of 146
I hope all the people that that refuse to patronize anything Sony is involved in don't like music. The Compact Disc (the ever present CD) was jointly developed by Sony and Phillips. BMG and now Columbia House... also Sony! Not to mention the other various content labels they own. Lastly, there is SACD :-) So no CDs for you!

I also hope they don't like video games... Playstation! It's only WII or Xbox for you!

And then there are the movies. If you think you are avoiding Sony by using only SD DVDs, guess again. Sony and Phillips conceded to Toshiba during the development of what is now the DVD by largely accepting the Toshiba standard, but not without leaving their mark on it in the form of EFMPlus modulation taken from their own MultiMedia Compact Disc standard. I guess its back to VHS!

To reject a product based solely on a dislike for a particular contributor of the technology doesn't make much sense. You're not going to spite them. And eventually if it is something you want bad enough, you'll give in anyway finding some way to justify it. The point is these days; customer service is all but dead no matter what type product or service you are consuming and regardless of who is providing it. You can look at ANY big company and find plenty to complain about. Anyone disillusioned into thinking Apple is so different, should think again. They've certainly had their blunders. I don't think I need to point them out. If you think about it, at least a couple should easily come to mind.
post #82 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by ab2ab View Post

BINGO!!!

What a lucid, real world post! Such a rarity these days.

I absolutely never understood why soooo many people thought that what was keeping HDM from growing was that people were "confused" and waiting it out to see which format would emerge. The truth of the matter is that only the members of this site and other like it were the only one's espousing this notion. Non-movie hobbyist just don't care. Period! And, here's a tip: It you want them (general public) to notice you (HDM industry), become more attractive by lowering your damn prices (media and hardware)! And please save me the "my VCR or SD DVD player cost $_______when it was new" BS, 'cause you and I both know that they weren't flying off the shelves then either. Blu Ray IS and will always be a NICHE' Market!!

Uh, yeah, you are right there....Non-movie hobbyists don't care.

I'm glad that we cleared that up.
post #83 of 146
Don't know if it can just be called a blu-ray backlash, but most of us figured that when the "war" was decided, the BOGOs for the most part would be over and prices of players would hold firm. It's only been about a week since Toshiba ended HD DVD, so I guess we'll see.

But to have so many people wanting one of the formats to die, I never understood that. It's like cutting off your nose to spite your face

I can also say with certainty that if prices stay between 25 -30 bucks, there will be no more coming into my home.

With almost 1000 sd dvds and over 160 HD movies + DirecTV HD package, I can do without.

If prices stay the same, we can say that SONY and Blu-ray won the battle but will undoubtedly lose the war. IMHO of course.
post #84 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Uh, yeah, you are right there....Non-movie hobbyists don't care.

I'm glad that we cleared that up.

Yeah just like people that are happy listening to a boom box. They will never spend more for a better system, because they hear music and they are happy. They don't realize what is missing and don't care. Not like some of us that spend thousands (10's of thousands) in search of the perfect system. Of course there are some things I wouldn't spend a penny on that others will pay a fortune for. It's all what is important to you.
post #85 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreigner View Post

I hope all the people that that refuse to patronize anything Sony is involved in don't like music. The Compact Disc (the ever present CD) was jointly developed by Sony and Phillips. BMG and now Columbia House... also Sony! Not to mention the other various content labels they own. Lastly, there is SACD :-) So no CDs for you!

I also hope they don't like video games... Playstation! It's only WII or Xbox for you!

And then there are the movies. If you think you are avoiding Sony by using only SD DVDs, guess again. Sony and Phillips conceded to Toshiba during the development of what is now the DVD by largely accepting the Toshiba standard, but not without leaving their mark on it in the form of EFMPlus modulation taken from their own MultiMedia Compact Disc standard. I guess its back to VHS!

To reject a product based solely on a dislike for a particular contributor of the technology doesn't make much sense. You're not going to spite them. And eventually if it is something you want bad enough, you'll give in anyway finding some way to justify it. The point is these days; customer service is all but dead no matter what type product or service you are consuming and regardless of who is providing it. You can look at ANY big company and find plenty to complain about. Anyone disillusioned into thinking Apple is so different, should think again. They've certainly had their blunders. I don't think I need to point them out. If you think about it, at least a couple should easily come to mind.

like i said i can't buy anything from sony but I don't buy much at all.CD's are dead media digital downloads is what alot of people do for music i think in the end for movies too.Again you can't stop it but you can avoid it.And yes we can look at most companies and complain but some are worse then others.


and not supporting companies that you don't like is the only way to get your point across to them if you keep buying they won't change why would they...thier still making money off you.
post #86 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill941 View Post

and not supporting companies that you don't like is the only way to get your point across to them if you keep buying they won't change why would they...thier still making money off you.

It's kinda of like voting for President. In theory, every vote counts. In the end, people will do as they see fit, and when the "votes" are tallied, they will tell the story for Blu Ray.... good or bad.
post #87 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheel23 View Post

It's kinda of like voting for President. In theory, every vote counts. In the end, people will do as they see fit, and when the "votes" are tallied, they will tell the story for Blu Ray.... good or bad.

I see both of your points and largely agree. I have "boycotted" certain businesses that I felt treated me poorly or whatever, but I am usually left feeling like my lack of business is too small to even be noticed especially if you are dealing with a huge company. If you don't buy, there are plenty more people behind you that will kind of attitude. Like try telling people you know to stop shopping at Walmart and see how far you get. It's just too pervasive to fight against. If they were to lose me as a customer they would never even notice. (not that I ever shop there anyway :-) ) but you know what I'm saying. You have to get really large numbers of people to band together to really get a company to notice. And that is usually hard to do. If Blu Ray is the format that movies are sold in when people want to buy movies on discs (some people prefer to "own" the disc gives them something tangible) that is what they will buy. Just like everyone bought VHS and DVD because that is what was being sold.
post #88 of 146
I have heard about the jackass fanboy 'battles' on here now for about 3 months. just goes to show how many losers there are online. speaking of which for you idiots who 'hate' microsoft, most likely NONE of you dumbasses would be using the internet the way you do if it weren't for the uniformity of the microsoft based computing world, macintosh users aside. go ahead and get all huffy but its a fact thats been written about for years or at least until the last few morons had to concede that its true.

now for the fools who 'hate' sony. so what? go away. you mention all this rootkit and the like. as if you dont know why sony and/or their subcontractors thought it was necessary. you steal music and hide behind fair use. yeah go ahead and deny it. so sony overreacts and botches the whole thing. which of course makes it sony's fault. even though you're a thief. nice logic. guy breaks into your house and you shoot him and you're the one who goes to jail. same logic.

finally on to the nimrods who don't undertand/cant accept hardball as it relates to business. yes the 2 camps totally looked away from what was best for the customer and decided that they cant share the money, only one of them could have it. and as is always the case someone had to lose. yet the whining insists its the customer. sure it is. the blu ray side wins even though the product isnt ultimately what it will be. sound familiar. like the earlier versions of hdtv that so many bought here. in the last couple of years the hdtv scene is much more refined than it was in even the early part of this decade regarding the tv itself but are those tv owners complaining? I think not, I think they have been enjoying their hdtvs regardless. the current blu ray players for the most part wont be upgradable to the 2.0 version of the spec. so do the current owners not enjoy them?

like many on this forum, I don't own a blu ray player. I am considering a ps 3 because its upgradeable to the 2.0 spec AND its a decent game machine. AND OH MY GOD ITS MADE BY SONY [insert dramatic music here]. I have always been a sony fan because they made the best tvs. not too happy that my lcos is now abandoned but its still untouchable for performance. loved my ed beta vcr. and my super beta as well. and my xbr big screen bought it 94 and my 25 inch xbr bought in 85. because they were the best performers and worth the money. does sony do stupid things with proprietary media formats? of course they do. md was a dud and so is memory stick. who forced anyone to buy them? NOBODY did. so since the internet is the last refuge of the lunatic and shut in I guess they can spread any idiotic notion that they want because as stupid as their endless rants are, the internet is a free medium. so be it. however as with those who insist the moonshots were faked and 9/11 is a us government fraud [loose change anyone] and sony and microsoft are evil, you just have to regard that as part of the signal to noise ratio and react accordingly.

end of rant.
post #89 of 146
I was only a kid at the time but I remember the U.S. boycotting Toshiba products in the late 80's due to Toshiba sharing US military information with the USSR. I haven't bought a Toshiba product since. It's funny how quickly U.S. consumers forget.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...57C0A96E948260
post #90 of 146
I am sure that I will eventually get over my bitterness. I have no CE bias to or against any one mfg except maybe Yamaha receivers. My disappointment is how it happened. I feel it was somehow bought. Any format with Sony and Disney behind it is going to be a strong one to beat. Through in the PS3's BR compatibility (brilliant) and it gets even tougher. But what I can't get past is that it seems as though the "wrong" format won. I mean even the name HDDVD is better than BlueRay and seems to be more catchy and marketable. Secondly the manufacturing costs of HDDVD is, as I understand it, substantially less expensive as well as les of a transition from regular DVD. In addition to the availibility of combo discs having the SD version on the other side. THird would be the significant price difference in the players themselves. Not to mention the fact that all HDDVD players were "final build" from day one and equipped with ethernet port. Just now BR has introduced it's "final build" players. I bet that makes the early adapters real happy. So why should we all rejoice in the fact that the more expensive, bigger powerhouse, less complete format "won" this war?
Lastly I have a studio beef. Granted it is very minor, but it is what has me feeling personally a bit "betrayed". What lured me into this whole thing was Batman Begins. At the time I had an LCOS RP tv and in watching the movie in SD I was less than pleased with the blacks. Then I saw an RCA HDDVD player and Batman Begins at my local Meijer. I had to try it. From that point on I was hooked on the picture and suddenly had a new top 10 movie. I later returned the RCA player and a few months later bought an A2 and was tickled to death. Then to basically end this thing was the Warner Bros studio decision to go all Blue Ray. Bummer.
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