Will Setting Processor to "no sub" Defeat Surround Formats

no it wont strip out the decoding of new formats. It will still decode.

However, you'll have to set the mains (front L/R, and center if you want, to LARGE) and the processor will route the LFE through there.

If you are running maggies, I assume there is a sub - of course you then have to connect the sub separately; instead of using the subwoofer pre-out from the receiver the fron L/R speaker connectors how have to go from receiver to sub, and use the sub crossovers. then another speaker cable from the subwoofer to the front L/R

it gets complicated, and probably the most convenient connection is to ignore Maggie and connect everything conventionally.

On second thought they would know what they are talking about - and its best that you try it the way they recommend. you should also try conventional sub connection and use what you prefer.

now, as for the way they describe; I see what they mean. They are connecting the sub to the front L/R pre-outs instead of the LFE output. it will work - you would need a Y splitter to run one output from the pre-outs to the sub and another to the amp.

He thought that you meant connecting the subwoofer via a speaker-level connection. I did too, upon first reading. But now that you posted their instructions, I can see that they meant to use the R/L pre-outs to connect the subwoofer. If you are using a pre-amp/processor, you WILL have to use a Y-splitters to split the pre-amp's front channel outputs to both the subwoofer and the front channel amps' inputs.

Although my system is SPL calibrated, i still find Pure Direct without processing with a one step DSD-waveform conversion (Oppo HDMI to Yamaha 3800) most pleasurable.

The more i listen the more i get convinced that for a faithful reproduction esp of 2 channel DSD one need good LFE mains, my Para. Ref. 100 v.2 take me to 35 Hz. The Servo-15 is there down to 20 if i switch Pure Direct off and for multichannel DSD of course.

Taking the LFE out to the sub will require processing and you will lose some of the fidelity IMHO, but that's just me.

That is an outdated advice from Magnepan. Many current receivers and pre amps like the Integra 9.8 will send the bass from the center speaker to the mains if the center is selected small and the mains are large. They also send the difference from the center to the main if both are selected as small, but the mains have lower xo point. BTW which model Maggie you are using for the front L-R?

With the subwoofer set to ON? I know that a few processors DO send the rerouted bass info from the SMALL channels to the LARGE fronts when a subwoofer IS used, but the majority of processors simply reroute the bass from the SMALL channels directly to the sub, even when the fronts are set to LARGE.



Again, a few (very few) processors may do this, but the vast majority simply reroute bass from SMALL channels to the subwoofer.


If getting the center channel's bass info into the front channels+sub (as opposed to ONLY the sub) is the goal, then their recommendation is, for the most part, with most processors, correct.

Outlaw started this over 6 years ago with their 950 which was confirmed on their forum at the time. With all the processing power now is available, this is rather simple to do. Of course I wasn't refering to all processors, and it's quiet possible that the Integra 9.8 do this as well.

As I clearly indicated, I have heard of it. Those sorts of bass management schemes are not very common. It'd be nice to be able to customize it, but the majority of processors simply reroute bass from SMALL channels to the subwoofer when the processor is set up as having a subwoofer.

OP's other thread, btw.

Perhaps I shouldn't say "many" without absolute proof [ and so are you to say "very few"] my point was that Magnepan is using and old and inaccurate description to make a blanket statement when there are exceptions to that rule. Also the OP will get the Integra 9.8 which is rather specific and may not be like most processor, so the Op should experiment instead of following advice blindly. I hope I cleared this up?

No. The Integra may offer variable crossovers for each speaker channel, but that won't accomplish what Magnepan is recommending.

It is important that you understand the ramifications of the Maganepan recommendation. When you set a processor up as having NO SUB, the LFE channel and any bass from speakers that are set to SMALL is rerouted to the front speaker channels. So, with a subwoofer connected to the front speaker pre-outs in this situation, the combination of the [front speakers + sub] are sent (1) the front channel bass, (2) the LFE channel, and (3) the bass from any channels set to SMALL. All of this low-frequency info is mixed together in the proper measure by the processor and fed to the front channels to which are connected, in this case, the front speakers and the subwoofer. So, properly adjusted, upon reproduction, this mixture of low-frequencies will, essentially, be "spread" across the front speakers and the subwoofer with each of those units contributing to the overall low-frequency output according to their individual capabilities. The subwoofer will be adjusted, in this case, to take over the low-frequency reproduction where the front speakers roll-off.

So, think of the [front speaker + sub] combo as being a single pair of speakers that share a low-frequency driver. The LFE channel, for example, which can contain information as high as 120Hz, will be reproduced by BOTH the front speakers and the subwoofer. The low frequencies from the front channels will be reproduced by BOTH the front speakers and subwoofer. And the low-frequencies from any speakers set to SMALL will be reproduced by BOTH the front speakers and the subwoofer.

Unless a processor is set up as having NO SUB, it cannot produce this same situation where this combination of low-frequencies is perfectly mixed and perfectly "spread" across the full-range [front speakers + subwoofer] combo.

Experiment.

When comparing the 2 connection schemes, there are 2 major things to consider:

1.) Exactly how your processor behaves when set up as having a sub (SUB ON) is important. Where does it reroute bass from channels set to SMALL when a subwoofer IS used (SUB ON) and the front channels are set to LARGE. Most processors simply reroute all the bass from any channels set to SMALL to the subwoofer no matter what size setting is used for the front channels. Some processors, though, will reroute some or even all of the redirected bass to the front channels in this circumstance.

2.) With most processors, the LFE channel is sent to the subwoofer alone when the processor is set up as having a sub (SUB ON). However, there are a slight few processors that will reroute LFE to the LARGE fronts, too, depending upon some of the processors's other settings, such as an LFE+Main-type setting. But if the processor is like most, and the LFE channel is ONLY sent to the sub (when SUB ON) no matter any other settings, then a major difference between the 2 connection schemes, is that when set up as having a sub (SUB ON), no matter whether you set the fronts to LARGE or SMALL, the LFE only goes to the subwoofer. If setup with NO SUB, then the LFE channel gets spread in the correct measure across BOTH the LARGE fronts and the subwoofer.

Do you own this piece? Reading the manual online can't tell you everything about it. Unless you had posed this question to directly to Integra's technical department, your advice is hearsay about it.

No, I do not own it. Do you own it? If so, you can try and answer his question. I think my responses in posts #13 and #15 were pretty thorough and I strongly suspect that it cannot provide for the same exact result that the Magnepan recommendation provides. If you can make a case otherwise, by all means, please do. But I would suggest you read both post #13 and #15 so that you fully understand the issue. I didn't even look in the manual, btw. I didn't have to. I included plenty of caveats in my responses that will cover any processor's varying capabilities. There are only so many ways that a processor can manage bass.


So, is there ANY instance when setup as having a subwoofer that is connected conventionally (to the subwoofer pre-out) where the processor will simultaneously:

1.) Spread the LFE channel perfectly across BOTH the LARGE front speakers and the subwoofer?
and
2.) Spread the front channels' bass perfectly across both the LARGE front channels and the subwoofer?
and
3.) Reroute and spread the bass from those channels set to SMALL perfectly across both the LARGE front channels and the subwoofer?


I doubt it, but I'm all ears (and PEH is too) if you can present a hypothetical example and the settings within the processor which will produce these exact results. If you don't feel like tackling it, I can try and present the settings and a scenario with his processor which will get PEH closest to the results achieved by following Magnepan's recommendations.

Otherwise, your one-off criticisms of my well thought out and in-depth responses (and, yes, maybe even wrong!) are useless to PEH. I'm spending quite a bit of time answering his questions thoroughly because I want to help and all you seem to want to do is come around and defend the processors, the capabilities or quality of which were never in question. You insist that we defer to the knowledge of "Integra's techinical department" yet are unwilling to listen to what the manufacturer of his speakers recently recommended to him.

Yes!

I've read you responses and it has nothing to do with what Magnepan says, so I won't bother to quote the rest of your post.

The single issue is between the center speaker and the sub.
The issue arises from the fact that Magnepan center speakers are nototriously bass shy and requires a different setting then the rest of the speakers hooked up to the same pre amp receiver. For a long time there was only a single global setting was available to set HP/LP which would create a response hole they're talking about, however current DSP chips use triple or quadruple crossover designs, which does permit a different setting to any each or group of speakers without discarding any info including the the LFE. The Integra use a quadruple design and treat the LFE with a separate crossover still [LP only].
Now earlier I've said that some pre amps do redirect bass from the center speaker to the main even if the sub is set to "on", but rethinking what Magnepan want to achieve here, this level of sophistication, is not needed at all. So as long as the pre amp lets you choose a different crossover setting for center and the mains, then there won't be any response hole.
There is another issue here though and it has something to do with "directionality" of the upper bass raeches the sub, and in return how to position the sub becomes crucial.
This is also why they wan't you to fold both LFE and centes bass into the mains, since this upper bass info would remain with the mains which would keep the localization issue at bay. The Integra 9.8 of course could provide this configuration as well as most processors and receivers do, as it is part of Dolby's requirements/recommendation of how to implement bass management.

Yes, sort of, as it's not exactly the same thing[so is your current Outlaw 950, which I also own] see my response above. If you buy a sub, which I highly recommend as the 1.6 is not really a full range speaker especially for reproducing the LFE on movies, the positioning of the sub is critical for localization problems do to the unusually inefficient bass response from the typical Magnepan center speaker, which force you to use a high HP/LP configuration on your preamp or the "workaround" recommendation by Magnepan.
Positioning also responsible for most subjective impression of a given sub, not who makes it or how much it costs. Of course this is a different subject, and the subwoofer forum is the place to discuss that.

This was the reason you've edited your post?

I know you're wanna help I think many people here appreciate that, but before you do, you're wanna be sure, that you cover your ground first. You don't own the Integra yet you're so sure what it can do.
The Magnepan recommendation has been up there for years, I know because I used to consider to buy their speakers, and I do my home work on every piece I consider for purchase. They also recommend not to use AV receivers at all for powering their speakers, mostly because of their 4ohm rating and that the cheap models indeed introduce cuurent restriction when a 4ohm rated speaker is connected. However many mid to high priced receivers are capable to drive these speakers without issues, so I would take their recommendation more like a "guideline" then a gospel since it is clearly falls out of their "expertise".

I came here to advise the OP on the processor I own which he consider to buy and know more about then you and Magnepan it seems.

Of course I agree that the ability to vary each speaker channel's crossover seems useful in accomplishing what they are after (and it may very well be, but, as an aside, using different crossovers is also frowned upon by many). This ability is not a new feature. HK has offered this capability for years. But the whole point of their recommendation is to get the higher frequencies of the center channel's redirected bass into the front channels where the front speakers can reproduce it more accurately than the subwoofer can. Basically, it creates a pseudo-phantom center situation where the center channel is still responsible for those frequencies that it CAN reproduce.

Carefully reread Magnepan's recommendation that PEH posted above.

Quite often (and, yes, it does depend upon the subwoofer in question) even when calibrated perfectly properly, a subwoofer will NOT reproduce the upper bass region appropriately. This problem can actually be MORE apparent with a more capable subwoofer. This is the "hole" they are referring to. They are not referring to a hole caused by too low a "global" crossover setting being utilized.

Seamless integration is their goal. Are the Integra's digital crossover's infinitely variable? Probably not. Can the high and low pass filter setting used for a particular speaker channel be varied independently? Probably not. Can the filter slopes be varied? This it may actually allow; I don't know. Even though we think that the digital crossovers available in processors are nifty and work perfectly, they are actually quite rigid. An 80Hz crossover setting, for example, utilizes an 80Hz HP and LP filter and this sort of rigid crossover (where the HP and LP point are identical) requires specific filter slopes in order for it to work properly. A subwoofer's variable low-pass filter often utilizes a more ideal slope and, more importantly, allows for a sliding LP relative to the fixed natural HP of a LARGE speaker.

No, I'm not saying their recoemmendation MUST be the best. In the end PEH should experiment, especially in light of the fact that he WILL have the capability to use multiple crossover points. How well that works depends upon how different the crossover settings are and the exact capability of his subwoofer. You might think that multiple crossover points is a bonus, but many consider it a Pandora's box. Adjusting multiple crossover points and the speaker channel levels appropriately so as to all work perfectly is not something that is that easily done.



This is not a Dolby requirement. The vast majority of processors simply direct rerouted bass to the subwoofer channel. Yes, there ARE some processors that will direct some or all of the redirected bass to the LARGE front channels. But (and correct me if I am wrong) what you are proposing is running the front channels as SMALL, too, in which case, there IS NO possibility that any redirected bass is routed to the front speakers. So that's a moot point, no?

I don't have to know what it can do. I am assuming it is the best thing since sliced bread; that it can wipe my butt and cook dinner, too. Not that it is crippled in any way shape or form. I know exactly what MY ideal processor would be capable of doing and there isn't one made that I know of that can do it - infinitely variable (as opposed to a choice of a few fixed values), asymmetric crossover points with variable (albeit limited to a few values) filter slopes. That's what is necesaary to achieve truly seamless integration. Otherwise you're just working within the constraints imposed by your processor to adjust things as best as possible.

But, honestly, I don't know; does the Integra do any of that?

The ability to use different crossovers, alone, does not completely allow one to achieve what Maganapan recommends.



I wonder..............

Right it could be interpreted as well, but once again they would throw a blanket statement on every subwoofer, and again this problem exitsts, because they center speakers can't reproduce any bass below 100-150hz depending on the model.


THX certified processors are required to have 2nd order slope for HP and 4 th order for LP. Digital crossover are far more precise and don't introduce phase alterations like those in speakers and subwoofers that use analog type filters.


Most subwoofer don't have built in HP filters, and the ones often use are just single XO point that maybe too high for the mains like the OP is planning to use. Their slope on the LP is usually is 4th order same as most receiver use these days THX or not.


First of all it's not just me against the many as you put it, there are many also who thinks that better and multiple crossover setting can be a good thing, but I laso think that it could create more problems indeed though it depends on many variables.


Consider yourself corrected. The ability to set the subwoofer to no is a requirement of any bass management system which Dolby pretty much wrote, though they don't require it per se, but THX does. That's all I was refering to since that's what Magnepan want's you to do as step one.



It's too bad you had resorted to this..........


what a shame.

PEH I just noticed this in your post from Magnepan:
So the LFE is not needed? is that really what they say, because that flat out idiotic even if this will be a music only set up. The LFE is never a redundant info encoded into the .1 channel when it comes to movie recording/mixing. This changes quiet a bit with music, but simply for one reason, because there is no standard which by the industry lives. There are entire drum kit even bass guitar mixed in that channel, discarding that, well you get the idea. So if you have any idea why would they say it's not needed please share.

they say its not needed because the receiver is expected to (should?) route the LFE to the speakers designated as LARGE

...which the 1.6s cannot handle properly....

Maggie's advice seems to be dated from the Pro-Logic days. There is nothing wrong with setting all speakers to SMALL and running a subwoofer. That would certainly be my advice with 1.6s.

Not to belabor this too much longer, but I'm referring to the "fixed natural HP of a LARGE speaker"; the inherent roll-off of a speaker that is being run full-range. This is fixed. The subwoofer's LP can be completely, variably "slid" up and down around this point to provide the smoothest integration.




With all due respect to you, I didn't "put it" that way, thehun. I opened that post saying:

"Of course I agree that the ability to vary each speaker channel's crossover seems useful in accomplishing what they are after (and it may very well be, but, as an aside, using different crossovers is also frowned upon by many)."

Well, if you set it up with NO SUB, you're (obviously) following Magnepan's recommendation. That's not what we are discussing. YOU proposed that the Magnepan recommendation was not needed, and said the processor could achieve the same result as their recommendation WITHOUT having to be set up as having NO SUB. Of course, if set up with NO SUB, the processor can achieve their EXACT recommendation. I fail to see your point, here.





Resorted to what?????

You misunderstand. I am giving your processor the full benefit of the doubt and assuming it can do a WHOLE lot. That it is the most advanced processor available today. I just don't think that when set up as having a sub that is connected conventionally to its subwoofer output that it can be set up to fully mimic the results achieved when following the Magnepan recommendation. And that was your contention. You claimed that the Magnepan recommendations are not necessary and that the processor can provide the same or better results when the subwoofer is connected conventionally. It can't. The Magnepan results can ONLY be achieved by connecting and running everything the way they recommend. This is the crux of this whole discussion.







I guess so. I never once questioned your knowledge of EITHER product. Only your contention that the Magnepan recommendations were dated and no longer necessary, especially with that particular processor. Yes, the processor's variable crossovers are useful in integrating all the speakers based upon their individual capabilities, but it still can't mimic the Magnepan recommendations when the subwoofer is connected and used conventionally, especially when all the speakers are run as SMALL, as would most likely be the case per your recommendation. You contend that there is a better way to connect and configure everything. I say that there very well may NOT be a better way, as the processor cannot achieve the same exact results as the Magnepan recommendation (without following them, of course).

Yeah, I agree, thehun, it is poorly worded. Of course, as discussed, all processors will reoroute the LFE channel to the LARGE front channels when their connection scheme used. They are saying the "LFE connection is not needed".



As an aside, and not to start another "argument", but there IS often redundant (no, not identical) info in the LFE channel and the other channels in movie soundtracks. In fact, most low-end effects ARE mixed across the main (R, L, C, and surrounds) channels and the LFE channels. Occasionally the LFE content IS truly and completely unique.

No, but a subwoofer that is connected to the front L/R pre-outs and adjusted properly to the low-end roll-off of the (LARGE) 1.6s can handle the front channels' lower bass, the rerouted channels lower bass, and the brunt of the LFE channel (the upper region of which will, of course, be reproduced by the fronts with their connection scheme).



Oh, man. We gotta start this all over again, now? Please read the thread in regards to this paying particular attention to their recommendation. There is nothing really "dated" about it. There is no way to set the speakers to SMALL and achieve the particular bass management scheme they are recommending. Their connection scheme can still be useful in a variety of situations and can often provide better and smoother integration than that provided by the rigid bass management schemes provided by most processors. That connection scheme is still preferred and utilized by some people.

Well that's not the same thing. Naturally it should be folded into the mains, but it is needed for sure, regardles what speaker will end up reproducing it.