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post #31 of 53 Old 08-10-2019, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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JJeff, I'd like to say IsoBuster can cure the common cold.. but that might be a stretch (.. but only slightly )

Its very possible it might work. It mostly depends on DVD-R or DVD+R, and then its a matter of the odds whether it for sure will or will not work.

DVD-R/RW basically performs all the "fixups" as its recorded, finalizing only updates the index or VTOC from my undertanding.. so in that case while the titles might be missing, the whole program titles might still be available.. they just have to be fetched from the disc "blindly". IsoBuster is a bit "vague" in what it absolutely "demands" of a disc.. its a pauper when it comes to demanding a particular format or requirements.. it takes whatever it can find and makes do.

DVD+R/RW is a bit "messy" in that it lets programs remain "as recorded" until being finalized and "moved all over the disc so they can be played back by a low power (computational power) and more demanding player.. if it is not powerful enough, the player just gives up and says.. nope.. ain't gonna try. Isobuster just says.. oh well.. and tries anyway.. never giving up. Even if IsoBuster finds nothing.. it will let you skim the sectors one by one and browse them in binary or hex. IsoBuster is not an editor.. but more a discovery and recovery tool.

The big changes to IsoBuster in the last five months to version 4.4 are that it has vastly improved its ability to recognize particular "flavors" of proprietary (interpretations?) of the VR and VRO specification.. and in some cases it throws every preconception literally (out the window) and manually detects weird and damaged VRO formats.. its a bit schizophrenic and that is definitely (on purpose).. it took quite a bit of discussion to convenience the expert and precise author of IsoBuster.. to let go being one hundred percent accurate in all cases .. he's very use to salvaging corrupt data.. but he is a perfectionist.. really he's darn good at what he does.

The licensing of IsoBuster lets you install the IsoBuster version 4.4 in a demo mode (without a license) to read and scan hard disks, raw disk image files and anything that looks like a bunch of sectors and tries its best to fit a design to it that works. and it has many switches from the command line and the gui to override and force it to look at the design through a different kaleidoscope of possible formats.. when you lock on to the correct one it simply lets you right click and export the file to your PC hard disk.

This lets you "try before you buy" a Professional license to the program which enables all features for export.

The license is not incremental, you get everything for one price, every possible recorder format is enabled. And it gets you support from the author.. if you can't figure it out with the tool in its default mode.. you can contact him and provide a disk image made using IsoBuster that he can examine and get back to you.. once he has found the solution he generally adds it as a new special (supported) case to the next version of IsoBuster and it improves. He's very big on making the tool (automatic) as much as possible so the learning curve is very steep.. in that you really need to learn very little to use the most features.. you simply start the program and it tries to guess the disc your trying to recover files from.. or you have to guide it by selecting one from the drop down. Its really astonishingly simple to use and keeps getting better.

And since you already have a copy of IsoBuster, you don't have to buy it completely again.. there is an upgrade path. There is almost no risk to you trying it before you upgrade and then making the decision based on the results.

For other people, even if they were ever thinking about buying a license but putting it off.

I've done that before and independently developed software went away, or became unavailable after it was bought out by another company and that feature was removed.. or the software was simply no longer offered for sale. This has happened so often to me.. I'm very cautious and buy a license to things even if I'm not sure I will be using them in the future.

With the low cost of the license, and having over 50+ DVD Recorders supported.. its a must have for me at full price. But if your upgrading.. even more so in my opinion.

Its practically future proof, in that if you have a DVD recorder today that it works with.. and that fails.. but you can find a different model or one from another supported brand.. your back in business. So even though DVD recorders are becoming rare.. almost any brand/model will do.. as long as its listed as "tested" and more are still being added to that list.

MAXELL: from what I read at the time I bought them from NewEgg. History was they are Ty discs from the original Ty maker. "The ones" sought for very high dollar today.

A few people have tried them in recent years and got 100 out of 100 to burn on very old Pioneer DVD recorders with zero coasters.

They are a secret stash that happened I think because MAXELL exited the DVD market so quickly compared to all the other brand names. They barely got into relabeling Ty's before they got out. The result was a surplus of good quality discs that did not sell for a long time, because they held their value in the warehouse.. because the owners of the warehouse knew the real story.

Unlike the later JVC and CMC versions of the Ty discs.. these "missed" those transition periods.. so from what I've read.. "they are the real deal".

With the withdrawl from NewEgg.. and Amazon.. I can only imagine that these very few vendors don't have a lot of stock left and they will soon be gone. Probably only collectors and people who have stumbled across them at this late date will get a fleeting chance at buying a few before they are all gone.

MAXELL Media Review:

Since I bought some of the originals from NewEgg. Thought I'd describe the media.

First this is for the DVD-RSS media type.. the ones we are talking about, not some other variant.

The DVD-R is the type the "SS" stands for "Single Sided" or "Silver Sided" which in this context means the media is recordable only on "one side" and the label side is "silver reflective" but has no actual label surface. Its simply the raw polycarbonate and the metallic layer below gives it a slightly green hue".

The discs come with a slight oily film on their surface, which I assume is a finishing solution or sealant that has protected them for so long.

Generally its recommended that you do "wash" or remove this oily film before use. It was only used on premium discs of the era.. so cheap consumer versions did not have the film and people thought that a "bonus" you could immediately toss them in a recorder with no prep work.. but this was "premium" media for "professionals".. so a little more care and effort was expected .. for better results.

If you run the tip of your finger across the label side you can see the oily droplets cling and release and rearrange on its surface.. it doesn't really rub off.. so much as gently swirl around.. its not really all that messy. Not like you would think.. and you might even not notice it in a darkened room.

Due to this non-ink jet absorption or hard thermal printer surface.. these discs are not really designed for an inkjet or thermal disc printer.

These are quite rare, in that they are what I would call "archival grade" discs.. in that storing them in a jewel case without a label on the disc surface might be more appropriate.

A sticky label.. is a horrible idea as that tends to warp and unbalance the disc and can damage the polycarbonate depending on the ammonia or other chemicals in the glues binder.

A hub label isn't much better for the same potential to damage the seal on the disc from the center outwards.

I suppose some kinds of sharpie, or limited ink or thermal jet printer might work.. since that would limit the surface coverage. But your mileage may vary. The various chemicals are not likely to bind very tightly to the polycarbonate and would tend to rub off.

The recording side of the media is a deep deep "royal purple" color with a very uniform and consistent layer. I've only seen something close to this with AZO discs and compared to those these make the AZO look "pale".

I am not certain of the chemical make up of the discs.. but they certainly appear to be of very high grade.

These are 8X discs.. and even though they are rated for 8X they have been reported to burn successfully in 4X DVD recorders.

The discs do seem to have the atypical "saucer bow" from edge to center, so they don't lay flat on each other. The center spoke of the hat box rises up and they are packed with a styrofoam ring to tamp down vibration of the stack when the lid is placed on the stack and twisted to lock it down.

In subtle ways they seem to be a notch above what you would expect from cheaper media. I almost hate to think of burning one since they are so uncommon. The labeling from Maxell is completely in English and looks all North American.. but I think these must have been made in Japan.

A final comment about the "Specifications" on the sellers websites.

I don't think they are very accurate for this media. Most of it looks like "recycled" blurbs from other DVD-R media. These have (no) surface label, nothing that says Maxell or HP ect.. no lines or brand name logos.. plain generic clear plastic polycarbonate.

They are advertised as "print from center to edge" ready for "printers" which might be true if you have the special inks that professional disc printers use. But these are very smooth and "slick" surfaced. They have nothing for after market or cheap consumer printers to "grab on to".. most of what you might use to label these discs simply won't bind and will slip or rub off.

If you think you can stick these in an Epson or Canon printer and get a good result.. think again.. I think that is highly unlikely.

Until I learn otherwise.. I'd think a sharpie and a steady hand with minimal labeling would be your best bet.

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post #32 of 53 Old 08-11-2019, 08:15 AM
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As you seem to burn very little and might be interested in the real TY-02's old stock(at least I'm pretty sure they are pre-CMC) you might want to look into these Maxell + series DVDs. At the current ~$18/50 or $36 for 100 they are more expensive than the ~$25/100 the AZO CMC Verbs currently go for but again considering how little you burn and archival quality seems to be important to you, the extra $11 for 100 DVDs just might be worth it?
I purchased several of these when Newegg had them for the unbelievable price of $8/50(wish I had purchased more but they were limit 6 and at the time I didn't truly realize what a steal they were). A current Google search yields a couple of sellers advertising them for ~$18/50. I've included 2 links but haven't delt with either company, Newegg seems to be out of stock on these discs.
https://www.outletpc.com/ng2820.html...CABEgLYGPD_BwE
https://computercity.com/products/ma...SABEgLvgvD_BwE
All prices I quoted include shipping and no tax the best I can tell.
Thanks jjeff, I did check the media deals thread earlier and I admit that I had skimmed past the Maxell posts. I had recalled them getting out even before TY so I discounted them offering anything of higher quality. I appreciate the info,the review from jwillis and it's surprising that there's still a small stock of these, after ten years.

It looks like I just missed a sale too but I'll buy a spindle now and hope to catch the next one. Do those sales from those vendors on Newegg last 24 hours before they pull them or shorter?
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post #33 of 53 Old 08-12-2019, 03:36 AM
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It looks like I just missed a sale too but I'll buy a spindle now and hope to catch the next one. Do those sales from those vendors on Newegg last 24 hours before they pull them or shorter?
Honestly, I'd be surprised to ever see such a sale again, but I could be wrong
I think the two times they did this before were not too far apart and after the first person posted here, it wasn't too long after they were out(like a day or two).
I know if I ever see it again I'll order the max amount again(I believe it was 5 or 6 spindles) but I'd be shocked if it did return.
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post #34 of 53 Old 08-12-2019, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm with Jjeff on this.. probably won't see a sale like that again.

Its only a guess on my part, but I think the last sellers are winding down their supply. NewEgg seemed to be running a blowout sale at the time, and even then they placed a limit on how many each buyer could obtain.. (the Free shipping was NewEgg free shipping direct from their warehouse.. to close out stock?) a bit of generosity on their part? or to collect email addresses for after sale marketing of other products. The listings at NewEgg now state they are through the sellers Jjeff mentioned.. so probably no free shipping in the future.

As I recall this was around July 4th of last year and nothing since.

I bought some Verbatim Data Life Plus before the sale of the Verbatim name and equipment to China Magnetics, their exit of the market statement said it included their Blu-Ray assets too.. so for Verbatim the entire show in optical media is over. (frankly) they are good, but not as good looking as these Maxell discs.

The Maxell comes in a 50 ct milk white plastic hat box sealed with a shrink wrap ring of plastic which has a loose leaf label simply wound up and stuck on the inside of the hat box.

These could have easily been imported from Japan as "unlabeled" media and the insert put into the box and resealed.. or put into the box at the factory to make relabeling the product easier.

I speak of a paper flyer wound up like a sheet of notebook paper around the outside of the stack, no glue, no tape.. "inside" the hat box facing out. When you open the hat box it falls out and its nearly impossible to wind back up and stuff in the box while you close it.

Its a nice glossy print.. but technically a cheap method of rebranding.. Maxell really didn't invest a lot of their dollars in their first attempt at entering the market. It looks nice, its okay.. but to my imagination says.. this was an experiment.. they found a good supplier and put their name on the product. They could easily have gone with a cheaper supplier.. but at the time.. I don't think there were many cheaper brands to source. So luck of the draw.. they probably went with a professional contact in Japan and closed the deal. All this is speculation of course.. decades later.

I'm struggling with the idea of buying more before they are gone, even at twice the price.

The worry wart in me thinks these are the end times and we won't see this quality again.

If.. and that's a big if.. CMC releases new media with the Verbatim name, there is no reason why they would retool using Verbatims equipment. Might as well continue what they're doing and relabel their own brand with the cheaply acquired Verbatim brand in the West.

It would be really nice if they did re-formulate or start targeting a brand specifically for older stand alone recorders.. but activity on this list also shows that ship has sailed as well.

Imgburn read of a blank Maxell DVD-RSS disc
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Honestly, I'd be surprised to ever see such a sale again, but I could be wrong
I think the two times they did this before were not too far apart and after the first person posted here, it wasn't too long after they were out(like a day or two).
I know if I ever see it again I'll order the max amount again(I believe it was 5 or 6 spindles) but I'd be shocked if it did return.
Yeah, I'm going to use this batch before deciding to pick up more but I'll still monitor Newegg. I did set up a price alert, though it's the first time I've used that there, so I can't speak for it's speed or accuracy. I'd only want a few more spindles anyway.

If that sale did last for 24hrs, I should be able to catch it. If anyone else sees one, please post it in the deals thread and I'll do likewise.
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post #36 of 53 Old 08-12-2019, 11:20 PM
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The discs come with a slight oily film on their surface, which I assume is a finishing solution or sealant that has protected them for so long.

Generally its recommended that you do "wash" or remove this oily film before use. It was only used on premium discs of the era.. so cheap consumer versions did not have the film and people thought that a "bonus" you could immediately toss them in a recorder with no prep work.. but this was "premium" media for "professionals".. so a little more care and effort was expected .. for better results.

If you run the tip of your finger across the label side you can see the oily droplets cling and release and rearrange on its surface.. it doesn't really rub off.. so much as gently swirl around.. its not really all that messy. Not like you would think.. and you might even not notice it in a darkened room.
Thanks for your write-ups, jwillis. The comments about the oily solution caught my eye and wanted to ask if you needed to wash each disc. Do you think if I wiped the playside gently with a microfiber clothe, that should suffice?
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post #37 of 53 Old 08-12-2019, 11:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I think you do want to wash them to minimize weakening the laser during writing. The recorder might decide to try a higher burning power.. or its laser might already be so weak from age that it doesn't see the media and can't read its type before writing.

However, the oil droplet are quite fine and the laser assembly "triaxilates" from my memory I recall that started with CDROM burners and continued into DVD.. which means the laser is on a servo controlled platform and can jockey about "slightly" to get a clear path around microscopic dust and dirt on a DVD blank.

So while it might go ahead and burn perfectly.. you may pay a price down the line for making the recorder work harder.. or it might fail during a burn.. or when you decide to try finalizing later.

A fiber cloth is better than nothing.. but the sealant or oil is really fine.. I guess the cloth could soak up some of it.. and incrementally make the situation better.. but not perfect.

I've read on this forum that people used to have to clean certain blanks by washing them with a neutral soap solution and pat dry before using certain brands of media. This seems like one of those cases.
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post #38 of 53 Old 08-13-2019, 07:13 AM
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I've read on this forum that people used to have to clean certain blanks by washing them with a neutral soap solution and pat dry before using certain brands of media.
That was very common for Panasonic DVD-RAM disks -- in the day. People reported read/write problems and the first word of advice I gave was to wash them with tepid water using liquid dish soap and dry with a soft towel. That almost always did the trick. I have close to 75 RAM's and had to wash every one of them.
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Zoom in on the back side of label of pic that Willis sent to see MADE IN JAPAN . on the bottom right.
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post #40 of 53 Old 08-13-2019, 11:06 PM
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That was very common for Panasonic DVD-RAM disks -- in the day. People reported read/write problems and the first word of advice I gave was to wash them with tepid water using liquid dish soap and dry with a soft towel. That almost always did the trick. I have close to 75 RAM's and had to wash every one of them.
So one drop of dish soap with distilled water 1:100 should it then. I use the same to clean my TV screen and then just water to remove the soap. Btw I still have the RAM disc that came with the a Panasonic lol. Was saving it for a rainy day.
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post #41 of 53 Old 08-14-2019, 06:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Panasonic exited the DVD-RAM business about two years ago.

Verbatim was the last hold out, I assumed because the Military, Dentists and Medical businesses still stored X-Rays, MRI and other older tech output on DVD-RAM.. basically bureaucratic inertia.

When Verbatim announced they were giving up on optical media entirely, and saw no future in it. That was the first thing in my mind.. something happened to the DVD-RAM contracts.

But then they went all in and said they were giving up on Blu-Ray too.. and I thought ut oh.. that leaves only a couple Indian companies making Blu-Ray

I don't know anything for sure. I'm nobody, but when a technology like 3.5 inch floppy disks completely went away, including their drives.. it kind of looked like this.. rapidly.

I would bank a couple good Blu-Ray or DVD drives for the PC in case.. for when.. the drives disappear and you need to "rip" the media back to hard drives. Or do that anyway and get a head start.
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So one drop of dish soap with distilled water 1:100 should it then. I use the same to clean my TV screen and then just water to remove the soap.
Well in my case it was more like a squirt of soap onto a wet dishcloth.

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post #43 of 53 Old 08-21-2019, 09:19 AM
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But then they went all in and said they were giving up on Blu-Ray too.. and I thought ut oh.. that leaves only a couple Indian companies making Blu-Ray.
Grrr-reat. So basically, everyone from the military to doctors offices to engineers to accountants to artists to everyday tech users suddenly decided en masse that they have zero nada no interest whatsoever in any form of alternative non-magnetic backup media. Not even BD-R, which is cheap per GB, of reasonable capacity per disc, and has none of the variability/durability issues of DVD-R.

Because most people can't even think even one step ahead anymore, we're all now stuck endlessly migrating all our files from one HDD to another while praying they don't get corrupted in the process, and a random crash doesn't wipe out terabytes of data within seconds, requiring a massively tedious re-copy task to make another secondary backup. I don't know about the rest of you, but I haven't exactly been thrilled with the reliability of HDD storage connected via USB2 and USB3: a few too many needless time-consuming "connect-disconnect corruptions" have led me to cherish optical storage as a fallback option. I'm really really really disheartened that there is no longer even a military-corporate market demand big enough to at least support BD-R. Evidently the world doesn't seem to think it will survive another 50 years, so no longer cares about redundant different-tech data storage. Perhaps when their Amazon cloud account burps and loses everything, their plan is to just sip some kool aid and self-exit along with their lost data.
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post #44 of 53 Old 08-21-2019, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Its pretty much all up to SONY now.. I don't think they offer any BD-R for sale anymore. But I think I saw MIT had demonstrated using a new type of BD-R disc that held hundreds of GB instead of 50 GB tops.

What little I've read seemed to suggest all drives could fire their laser to etch deeper layers and raise the capacity, it was the dye and the media that was holding back capacity. Originally they planned to scale BD-R capacity regularly like their data center AIT tape drives.. but plans change.

Since SONY as a company is doing so poorly in many markets.. and Panasonic is backing out of Blu-Ray recording.. somewhat quickly.. the blanks would naturally get more scarce.

Next shoe to drop.. like floppies.. will probably be a decline in quality.. except for the pricer M-disc.. which archivists and old school librarians use. The Market economics will not support "cheap" media anymore (or in the next few years).

A 4TB NAS Toshiba hard drive is probably the best you can get in 2019, average life 3-6 years, they are warrantying them for 5 years.. that's 800 DVDs in a box the size of one tape, or 1600 hours of DVD quality video. At the far end today is 16TB drives or 4 times that. Duplicating the drives can be an entirely passive thing to do, and version them, or move them to different locations offsite to maintain redundant backups. I dare say duplicating 800 DVDs would be a bit more manual labor. Finding storage space a bigger challenge.. offsite backups not practical.

You can dupe a drive in less than one day, practically without touching or monitoring it. Make two or periodic dupes if your paranoid.. as drives go on sale. a 4 TB is around $100.. so maybe once a year? And keep the previous years drive as an ancestor backup.

Hard drives are not immune to going the way of the floppy though.. new tech like SSDs and crystal deposition write once data backup could wipe hard drives off the face of the Earth. Crystal deposition today is rather like a non-moving BD-R.. its just not mainstream yet. Its a bit more like custom inkjet printing via laser.

But hard drives are what we've got today.. and the possibility that consumer DVD/Blu-ray drives may disappear in the next 5-10 years. Having a magnetic backup would seem a reasonable precaution.

I wonder about HDD lifetime sitting on a shelf versus "in use" or passively being exercised by being spun up and down by something like a raspberry pi "drive exerciser". One could easily be built by attaching a $5 Pi to its USB port to IDE or SATA adapter and simply programming it to cycle or periodically "test" the drive by reading and writing to it.. or performing various sector samplings and checksums. A Pi-Berry drive storage system could be built for this express purpose.

I mean that's crazy hack-ish way to do it.. but many home NAS systems like a used Drobo can basically do the same and text your iPhone when a drive goes toes up.
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post #45 of 53 Old 08-22-2019, 05:54 PM
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Next shoe to drop.. like floppies.. will probably be a decline in quality.. except for the pricer M-disc.. which archivists and old school librarians use. The Market economics will not support "cheap" media anymore (or in the next few years).
It was my understanding (gleaned from Kelson, I think, could be false memory) that standard BD-R essenttially was M-disc technology (i.e., completely bypassed all the cruddy CMC "dye" nonsense we have in DVD-R and CD-R in favor of a stable archival substrate). In a notorious French accelerated aging test, the Panasonic branded BD-R blanks were highest rated, but this didn't mean as much as it did with DVD-R/CD-R: the innate archival design of BD-R was so superior nobody was really making any questionable blanks. Aside from the secondary "budget/economy/loss leader" dye-based BD-R offshoot, a terrible idea that should never have seen the light of day (a repeat of the DVD-R fiasco? why bother with such a false economy?).

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post #46 of 53 Old 08-22-2019, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I am certainly no expert and have not researched this.. but as a consumer. I looked into M-Disc tech and it was using the same laser, but in a different way. I think it was "scoring" in the actual surface.

Wikipedia says this:

Quote:
"While the exact properties of M-DISC are a trade secret, the patents protecting the M-DISC technology assert that the data layer is a "glassy carbon" and that the material is substantially inert to oxidation and has a melting point between 200 and 1000 °C.

M-DISC uses a single inorganic recording layer, which is substantially inert to oxygen, but requires a higher-powered laser.

M-DISC DVD does not require the reflective layer.

Thus, both the M-DISC and inorganic BD-R physically alter the recording layer, burning a permanent hole in the material.

Besides physical damage, failure of the reflective layer, followed by degradation of the data layer, are the primary failure modes of all optically recordable disks. "
Since M-DISC does not have a reflective layer to fail.. its only failure mode is degradation of the "glassy carbon" data layer.

Wikpedia on BD-R:

Quote:
"Normal" BD-R discs" uses an inorganic layer, data layers are surrounded by a pair of dielectric layers. An adhesive spacer layer and sometimes a semi-reflective layer is used for multi-layer discs.

BD-R LTH is a write-once Blu-ray Disc format that features an organic dye recording layer.

In 2011, France's Ministry of Culture and Communication conducted a study on the suitability of data archival of LTH (low to high) discs compared to HTL (high to low) discs. The data they collected indicated that the overall quality of LTH discs is worse than HTL discs."
The implication is that only the single layer HTL BD-R are in the same general league as the M-DISC. BD-R that use multiple layers for higher capacity.. even the inorganic ones rely on transparency and polarization between the layers (reflectivity) and are subject to the same extra failure modes as DVD-R.

.. also I think I read DVD-R longevity is only in the hundreds of years (but theoretically dis-proven) while Millenniata M-DISC is in the thousands of years..

.. remember Nero? the CD/DVD burning software.. as in (Rome is Burning)?

.. that "organic" dyes fail generally due to their reflectivity layer getting compromised, (and) their dye layer "oxidizing".. makes them sound like they (are "always" dying) and in the process of "burning"..

.. how ironic is that?

Moving on to M-DISC.. which is more like acid free paper.. in that its not subject to oxidation.. seems a lot simpler.. but harder on the burner.

"I Believe"

That the debacle when first trying to make a cheaper HTL (inorganic dye) by inventing LTH (using the old DVD-R organic dye formula) led to a backlash that doomed further experiments with organic dyes in the BD-R arena.. everyone just went back to inorganic dyes and kept upping the layers to get to 50 GB and then "stopped".

.. that is until I heard about the higher capacity BD-R, Verbatim used to have a 4 layer 100 GB per BD-R through NewEgg, but you can still fit 40 of those monsters on a single 4TB hard drive.. and 4TB is getting so small these days its getting harder to buy.

The 100GB M-DISC are closer to sketching on carbon atoms a layer at a time.. but I don't know what they cost.

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post #47 of 53 Old 08-22-2019, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
That the debacle when first trying to make a cheaper HTL (inorganic dye) by inventing LTH (using the old DVD-R organic dye formula) led to a backlash that doomed further experiments with organic dyes in the BD-R arena.. everyone just went back to inorganic dyes and kept upping the layers to get to 50 GB and then "stopped".
Verbatim put out the LTH dye-based disks as a cheaper BD-R alternative because their standard BD-R HTL were so damn expensive. Taiyo-Yudens entry into BD-R blanks appeared to be exclusively LTH -- I never found a T-Y HTL BD-R. The T-Y LTH BD-R were as expensive as the Verbatim HTL disks. AFAIK, these were the only 2 guys putting out LTH disks. It didn't last long -- not because of technology but because of price.

Problem was that BD-R HTL with the inorganic data layer was so robust that the third-party makers didn't screw it up. From the beginning, since 2011, I've been using Optical Quantum BD-R. I've burned hundreds and can count on 1 hand the number of disks I've screwed up during a burn -- and disks burned in 2011 play just fine today. Optical Quantum BD-R started out at half the price of Verbatim BD-R HTL and were significantly cheaper than Verbatim LTH. While Verbatim prices held fast, OQ prices steadily declined to where I pay ~$0.40/disk these days. Eventually Verbatim HTL disks started to come down in price and at one point, HTL disks were selling for the same price as LTH. LTH pretty much crumbled, as it should have.

Like with DVD-R, double-layer BD-R are overly expensive and just not worth it given the huge capacity of BD-R to begin with. Some years ago I bought a 10-pack of OQ BD-R DL -- I've burned 2 or 3 and the rest have sat in the cabinet since then.
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post #48 of 53 Old 08-23-2019, 03:05 AM
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I've been looking at some PC build articles & the cases that they use. The last few I saw do not have any external drive bays. The front panels have no openings & therefore no provisions for optical drives.

The last time I looked, HP & Dell desktop PCs still had optical drives. Maybe those will stay around for awhile so people can watch a DVD movie on their PC. And at the other end of the video spectrum Samsung stopped making Blu-ray players.

The world is changing. Everything is in the cloud or streaming.
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post #49 of 53 Old 08-23-2019, 04:00 AM
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I have this
Metal Nitride Blu-ray discs

Verbatim sells a type of Metal Nitride-based Blu-ray discs. How well do they withstand light? petersmart (2014) ran a test:
Several years ago now I tested the longevity of writeable DVDs and found that DVDs exposed to daylight and sun for 3 months on a windowsill became completely corrupt.
Since 2011 I've been trying out a similar test on a Blu Ray disc.
On NOV 2011 I burnt a Blu Ray disc with episodes of a TV series and also included an MD5 hash test file.
This was a VERBATIM METAL NITRIDE DISK NOT A DYE BASED DISK since I assume such disks will still be subject to the same corruption as DVDs since they use the same type of dye. [...]
I have now finished the longevity test and it has PASSED with flying colours.
For the last 10 months it has been subjected to both heat (in the plastic container) and very bright sunlight for several hours each day.
The MD5 hash has declared that all the files on the Disc are uncorrupted and readable so there seems to be little point in continuing the test.
So a resounding win for Metal Nitride discs in the longevity stakes. https://briantomasik.com/archiving-d...blu-ray-discs/
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post #50 of 53 Old 08-23-2019, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
Verbatim put out the LTH dye-based disks as a cheaper BD-R alternative because their standard BD-R HTL were so damn expensive. Taiyo-Yudens entry into BD-R blanks appeared to be exclusively LTH -- I never found a T-Y HTL BD-R. The T-Y LTH BD-R were as expensive as the Verbatim HTL disks. AFAIK, these were the only 2 guys putting out LTH disks. It didn't last long -- not because of technology but because of price.

Problem was that BD-R HTL with the inorganic data layer was so robust that the third-party makers didn't screw it up. From the beginning, since 2011, I've been using Optical Quantum BD-R. I've burned hundreds and can count on 1 hand the number of disks I've screwed up during a burn -- and disks burned in 2011 play just fine today. Optical Quantum BD-R started out at half the price of Verbatim BD-R HTL and were significantly cheaper than Verbatim LTH. While Verbatim prices held fast, OQ prices steadily declined to where I pay ~$0.40/disk these days. Eventually Verbatim HTL disks started to come down in price and at one point, HTL disks were selling for the same price as LTH. LTH pretty much crumbled, as it should have.

Like with DVD-R, double-layer BD-R are overly expensive and just not worth it given the huge capacity of BD-R to begin with. Some years ago I bought a 10-pack of OQ BD-R DL -- I've burned 2 or 3 and the rest have sat in the cabinet since then.
Optical Quantum definitely changed since then because I was right there with you as I've burned thousands of them, but within the last couple of years, I've been getting coasters for the first time. I even gave them a couple of more chances only to have to return them to Amazon for a refund due to the quality decline from the same vendors that once put out the good stuff!

I'm even on some threads on the DVDFab forum about Blu-ray disc lifetimes... and by the way, those discs still work flawlessly after 8 years...

https://forum.dvdfab.cn/forum/softwa...ifetimes/page3

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post #51 of 53 Old 08-23-2019, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post
I've been looking at some PC build articles & the cases that they use. The last few I saw do not have any external drive bays. The front panels have no openings & therefore no provisions for optical drives.

The last time I looked, HP & Dell desktop PCs still had optical drives. Maybe those will stay around for awhile so people can watch a DVD movie on their PC. And at the other end of the video spectrum Samsung stopped making Blu-ray players.

The world is changing. Everything is in the cloud or streaming.
This is the reason I'm keeping my current desktop. My desktop is an 8yr old Dell i7 PC. It has two external 5.25" drive bays that I populated with BD burners. I would love to get a new high-end PC but all the ones I've looked at had provision for only a single half-height (or thinner) optical drive. I would not be able to install a full size BD burner. I'm not thrilled with the thought of using external USB optical drives and don't have the energy any more to build a new tower. So I filled out my 8yr old i7 with all the RAM it would take and swapped out the C: dive for an SSD. To my surprise, it runs Win-10 like a bat out of hell -- I see no reason to replace it until the hardware takes a total dump.

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So from that link, Optical Quantum BD-R "regular" is HTL and Optical Quantum BD-R "value" is LTH.. really?

In this day and age they have gone back to offering LTH (organic dye) and people are buying them?

I'm not as sure about BD-R Dual or Quad layer.. it doesn't seem to be organic dye based, but since it does depend on transparency and reflectivity through the layers.. that seems like another potential path to failure.

I'm also not surprised that "data" stored on BD-R survives better than "video". Since data can often be reconstructed on the fly, or some file systems have enough error correction information to compensate (in the short run).. that doesn't mean the corruption wouldn't progress at the same rate as DVD-R (organic dyes are just "bad news").. just that the data format has a reserve to overcome a bad read.. where video does not.. gone is gone for video. But this still assuming we're talking BD-R LTH with the organic dye. None of this has shown up with HTL (Optical Quantum BD-R "regular").. that remains "reportedly" immune to corruption after everyone's testing.

HTL is just maintaining its price "premium" and isn't falling as fast as..

LTH.. really?.. its still being made?..

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post #53 of 53 Old 08-23-2019, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperFist View Post
Optical Quantum definitely changed since then because I was right there with you as I've burned thousands of them, but within the last couple of years, I've been getting coasters for the first time. I even gave them a couple of more chances only to have to return them to Amazon for a refund due to the quality decline from the same vendors that once put out the good stuff!

I'm even on some threads on the DVDFab forum about Blu-ray disc lifetimes... and by the way, those discs still work flawlessly after 8 years...

https://forum.dvdfab.cn/forum/softwa...ifetimes/page3
Not something I'm happy to hear. I haven't bought any OQ BD-R since 2016. Amazon had a sale going on Optical Quantum 6X Logo Tops for $15/50-spindle. I bought like a mad fool and stocked up. I still have 5 spindles in the cabinet and the spindle I'm working on now so I'm good for a while. I don't burn everything, just the stuff I really want to keep a backup copy of permanently. My media server capacity is currently 25TB -- I'm protected against 2 drives simultaneously failing so I don't feel the need to burn a backup of everything on the server.
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