Magnavox 557, 537, 535, 533, 515, 513, 2160A, 2160, 2080 & Philips 3576, 3575 - Page 27 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #781 of 27974 Old 05-10-2008, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmelone View Post

6. Is there any difference to the output signal if I record to a DVD and then finalize it? I probably misunderstood but I got the impression somewhere that after finalization the output might go back to full screen (probably wishful thinking.)

Not an unreasonable question, but it won't help if you didn't record an anamorphic picture in the first place.

There are two possible ways your 16:9 program could be recorded on the DVD:

1. An anamorphic picture, meaning that the video picture fills the entire 720 x 480 DVD frame with no black bars encoded as part of the picture.

2. A letterboxed picture with embedded top and bottom black bars encoded in the 720 x 480 DVD frame. In this case the black bars are part of the picture.

The DVD recorder can only record the picture format that it gets from the source, in your case the SA8300 S-Video output.

The way the DVD player outputs the picture on playback is controlled by two things: the aspect ratio flag in the IFO header of the recording, and the TV Type setting (4:3 or 16:9).

But since the 3575 always sets the aspect ratio flag to the default 4:3 for recordings, all recorded video will be output in 4:3 format, and the TV Type will have no effect when playing back recorded video. If you see black bars above and below the picture on your TV, they were encoded in your recording, and you have situation #2 above.
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post #782 of 27974 Old 05-10-2008, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amesdp View Post

But since the 3575 always sets the aspect ratio flag to the default 4:3 for recordings, all recorded video will be output in 4:3 format, and the TV Type will have no effect when playing back recorded video. If you see black bars above and below the picture on your TV, they were encoded in your recording, and you have situation #2 above.

Rmelone, please read this post on WS recording with the 3575/76. You can record WS on this unit with the 16:9 Wide setting in the Video > TV Aspect menu.

Unfortunately for you, your STB doesn't output the WS format over analog, but if the channels are unscrambled, your 3575/76 will record a WS program if it's directly on the coax (i.e., thru the tuner). It just won't set the WS anamporphic flag so you can reshape it for a 4:3 TV, but my WS recordings all play back nicely, full screen on my 4:3 TV.
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post #783 of 27974 Old 05-10-2008, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo View Post

Unfortunately for you, your STB doesn't output the WS format over analog, but if the channels are unscrambled, your 3575/76 will record a WS program if it's directly on the coax (i.e., thru the tuner). It just won't set the WS anamporphic flag so you can reshape it for a 4:3 TV, but my WS recordings all play back nicely, full screen on my 4:3 TV.

wajo, what we figured out earlier is that setting the TV Type to 16:9 on the 3575 tells the built-in TV tuner to output 16:9 HD programs in 16:9 anamorphic format. It doesn't affect the recording section of the 3575 one way or the other, but it has the correct effect overall. No help if you aren't using the built-in TV tuner.

Also a minor correction - DVD recordings don't have a WS anamorphic flag, they have a 16:9 aspect ratio flag. While you can change the aspect ratio flag in the IFO header by editing on a computer, the video is either recorded in anamorphic format or it isn't and can't be changed without re-encoding.
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post #784 of 27974 Old 05-10-2008, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amesdp View Post

wajo, what we figured out earlier is that setting the TV Type to 16:9 on the 3575 tells the built-in TV tuner to output 16:9 HD programs in 16:9 anamorphic format. It doesn't affect the recording section of the 3575 one way or the other, but it has the correct effect overall. No help if you aren't using the built-in TV tuner.

Also a minor correction - DVD recordings don't have a WS anamorphic flag, they have a 16:9 aspect ratio flag. While you can change the aspect ratio flag in the IFO header by editing on a computer, the video is either recorded in anamorphic format or it isn't and can't be changed without re-encoding.

rmelone and others, you can take what I said to the bank... you can record a WS program thru the tuner and it will show as natural WS when you watch it on your 16:9 TV... PERIOD... IRDGAS how it gets there... AND YOU DON'T NEED TO EITHER!
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post #785 of 27974 Old 05-10-2008, 06:07 PM
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Could this distinction perhaps explain why you can play a WS recording from the tuner source correctly on a 4:3 TV, but not a recording from a WS DV source?
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post #786 of 27974 Old 05-10-2008, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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A good starting point is this Wiki entry:

"Note that neither 720x480 (1.5:1) nor 720x576 (1.25:1) are in 4:3 (1.33:1) display aspect ratio. The DVD 720x480 standard was based upon the older analog NTSC and PAL standards which have a fixed 4:3 aspect ratio, but a variable horizontal resolution (approximately 200 upto 700) depending upon the quality of the received signal. The DVD specification was designed to capture this variable resolution, assuming an ideal lossless NTSC or PAL signal. When a 1.5:1 NTSC-DVD is viewed on a standard 1.33 [4:3] display, each pixel is squeezed closer together, or when viewed on a 1.77:1 [16:9] display, moved farther apart. When a 1.25:1 PAL-DVD is viewed, each pixel is moved farther apart in order to recreate the proper 1.33 or 1.77 aspect ratio."

And, now, I'm gonna quote myself from Subject #4 in Post #1 cuz I've said all I'm gonna say about WS here... it's not productive or instructive for the average Joe or Jane who just wants to record some WS programs:

[Rant!]... You'll hear all sorts of opinions on WS but, just remember, EVERYBODY HAS ONE!

This discussion is just about RESULTS that I personally see in my daily recordings and specific WS tests. I don't care if the 3575/76 sets a Chinese, American or any other "flag" in WS recordings! I'll leave the technical details to others cuz IDGAS!

As long as my 3575s record both WS and analog 4:3 shows in their natural shapes (even the index pics show the recorded shape), copy those in perfect aspect to DVDs, and display those shows NICELY on my 16:9 and 4:3 TVs FROM DIFFERENT PLAYERS, IRDGAS!

Also, there are only certain set-top boxes (STB) that will send a WS signal thru their analog outputs (S-Video and Composite). Most or many Motorolas won't, SA8300 w/Passport SW won't, and some others won't, so there's no way to get that signal to the 3575/76 in WS format w/o other external devices... and it's NOT cuz the 3575/76 can't record WS!!! [End Rant]
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post #787 of 27974 Old 05-10-2008, 10:40 PM
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IF you later try to play your dvd made from the 3575/76 on another dvd player it will almost always play it back as 4:3 as it doesn't set the 16x9 flag to let the player know it's supposed to play back at 16x9.
The recorder plays it's own disks fine as it made them and knows what to do with them.
SO if you want to make sure a later copy played on another machine plays right you have to use a program to set the flag manually or it might not get the aspect ratio right on other peoples players and tv's.
I have run into this with a few I sent to friends.
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post #788 of 27974 Old 05-10-2008, 11:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dartman View Post

IF you later try to play your dvd made from the 3575/76 on another dvd player it will almost always play it back as 4:3 as it doesn't set the 16x9 flag to let the player know it's supposed to play back at 16x9.
The recorder plays it's own disks fine as it made them and knows what to do with them.
SO if you want to make sure a later copy played on another machine plays right you have to use a program to set the flag manually or it might not get the aspect ratio right on other peoples players and tv's.
I have run into this with a few I sent to friends.

My WS recordings play nicely full-screen from my 3575 AND a Pio 640 to a 16:9 TV and from a 3575 AND Pio 640 AND Panny combo to a 4:3 TV.

Never a problem here!
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post #789 of 27974 Old 05-11-2008, 12:46 AM
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If the aspect ratio flag is not set, on a 16x9 HD TV, you may have to manually select "wide." When played back on a 4x3 TV, setting the DVD player to output to a 4x3 TV should take care of it. The flag just makes such things automatic.
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post #790 of 27974 Old 05-11-2008, 01:11 AM
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yeah, I think it depends on the player and tv. I did one that played fine on my other players, then when I sent it off my friend complained it was not set properly when he watched it so he had to redo it.
Now I usually run it through something that can tell me what the flag is set at and redo it if needed. it's never been a problem here most of the time but that's
what is happening when it does.
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post #791 of 27974 Old 05-11-2008, 09:14 AM
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I hope you've got the 3576 1st on the coax, then coax to the STB? If so, did you do an Auto Channel Preset > Cable (Analog/Digital), which is the 3rd option in that menu?

Yes I have the 3576 1st on the coax and I did an Auto Channel Preset > Cable (Analog/Digital). The first group of channels (analog I would think) run from channel 1 to 125 and the DTV channels ran from 1 to 135. With the DTV channels it's a matter of determining which numbers are which channels. These are the ones you were mentioning could be recorded WS because that's the format they're being transmitted. The only problem is that most of the DTV channels are Time Warner promo type channels - there are a few that could be recorded once I map out what they are.

I was under the impression that with the configuration you recommend with the DVDR first in line, the signal could be passed through the DVDR from the DVR to the TV even if the DVDR is turned off. If that is correct, I'm not seeing that with my hookup:

Cable --> DVDR --> Cable --> DVR --> Component Video --> TV
|--> S-video out --> DVDR(E1) --> HDMI --> TV

In order to see the signal through the DVDR to the TV the unit has to be on.

Is it also true that the recorder should not be placed inside a cabinet?

Robert
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post #792 of 27974 Old 05-11-2008, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmelone View Post

Yes I have the 3576 1st on the coax and I did an Auto Channel Preset > Cable (Analog/Digital). The first group of channels (analog I would think) run from channel 1 to 125 and the DTV channels ran from 1 to 135. With the DTV channels it's a matter of determining which numbers are which channels. These are the ones you were mentioning could be recorded WS because that's the format they're being transmitted. The only problem is that most of the DTV channels are Time Warner promo type channels - there are a few that could be recorded once I map out what they are.

I was under the impression that with the configuration you recommend with the DVDR first in line, the signal could be passed through the DVDR from the DVR to the TV even if the DVDR is turned off. If that is correct, I'm not seeing that with my hookup:

Cable --> DVDR --> Cable --> DVR --> Component Video --> TV
|--> S-video out --> DVDR(E1) --> HDMI --> TV

In order to see the signal through the DVDR to the TV the unit has to be on.

Is it also true that the recorder should not be placed inside a cabinet?

Robert

Well, something downstream must be blocking the raw cable signal cuz the coax loop in the 3576 is ONLY a raw signal passthru, and no one who's set up this way reported no pic when the 3575/76 was off. I can't figure anything specific from your description, but I'd at least leave all settings just the way they are in all equipment where you don't see TV with the 3576 off, then move the incoming cable from the 3576 to the DVR and see if you immediately get a pic w/o changing any settings?

A friend of ours has a STB that has a setting for "passtrhu"... not sure if that has anything to do with your setup or not, or if that could play a part, even?

The 3576 should not be placed on top of hot equipment or in an enclosed case where air flow is reduced. Make sure the top right side where the 3576 vents are has room for air flow in, and the fan on back has room for air flow out.

See this post, 1st para., for some more info on heat, etc.
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post #793 of 27974 Old 05-11-2008, 11:20 AM
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I think I'm getting frustrated with the lines on the top and bottom problem and I'm not thinking clearly.

My original hookup from the DVR to the HD TV uses input 6 on the back of the TV; the 3576 output uses input 7 on the TV. After hooking up the 3576 with the unit first in line and not powered on, everything is fine going to input 6 of the TV. And when going to input 7 of the TV (using the 3576) then I have to power up the unit - of course.

Sorry for the confusion.

Robert
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post #794 of 27974 Old 05-11-2008, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Ah, makes sense... thankfully!
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post #795 of 27974 Old 05-11-2008, 09:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Anyone who buys a 3575/76 and suspects it might be a "returned" unit sold for new can check laser diode operating time with SKIP-3-2-1.

More info on the SKIP codes here.
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post #796 of 27974 Old 05-12-2008, 12:37 AM
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After just purchasing my brand new Philips DVDR3576H from Sam's Club earlier in the day, I discovered a problem that seems to have no solution in the owner's manual. Thanks to Google search, I discovered a thread here around mid-April of several people describing the same exact problem. It is one of excessive contrast--or more accurately--crushed black levels through the tuner (misery loves company). Although I wasn't happy to discover the problem, I can thank this forum for showing me I'm not alone. One of the last posts then asked whether people are having the same problem with the newer 3576H as with the 3575H. I can now affirm: "YES." I have both an HDMI cable and separate component cables running to my Sony 52-inch XBR LCD set. The reason for that, incidentally, is that I've discovered that a few commercially-made DVD's will not format correctly on-screen via HDMI even with the player set to 16:9 ratio. Typically, I see a letterboxed picture, but when I press the screen size button on the TV remote, the picture first stretches horizontally, filling out to the edges, but upon pressing a second time, instead of the image stretching vertically to fill the screen, the whole stretched picture zooms. So now, the image is still stretched laterally, but is masked severely on each side, as it fills from top to bottom. Not so good. I solved the problem with these few DVD's by using the component connections, because, although there is some quality loss (detail, overshoot and ringing on vertical edges), I can get the correct proportions filling the screen.

But, back to the tuner issue. Whether using HDMI or component connection, the crushed black level and resulting murky look is the same. Since playing commercial DVD's is nearly a perfect contrast match to broadcast television directly on my Sony TV I must fault the tuner section of the 3576H; and that same low level is passed on to the HDD recordings, and then probably to recorded DVD's as well. Although my set has the nice feature of remembering separate picture settings for each input, I'm still using those same inputs, whether watching a commercial DVD, or HDD, or the tuner. So I can't accommodate such a variation by using different inputs. Besides, the black level is dropped so low and clipped that, even forcing up the black level many units higher, detail is still lost in a murky gray.

Has anybody yet heard of a solution (besides trying to get lucky with a different unit)? Might there be a Philips tech type who knows of some nifty software cure or a "magic" set of buttons that, pressed together through some finger acrobatics, might open an option to change the tuner video levels? That would be welcome news to so many of us with this dark tuner syndrome. It would seem that Philips would have solved this problem by this next generation unit. Thanks for any help.
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post #797 of 27974 Old 05-12-2008, 05:27 AM
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What is the resolution of the XBR, 720 or 1080. Try disconnecting the component and HDMI and run a simple composite cable from the 3576 to the XBR. Let the XBR do the work and see if that makes a difference. Also, what is your signal source to the tuner, ATSC or QAM.

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post #798 of 27974 Old 05-12-2008, 06:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCW View Post

Has anybody yet heard of a solution (besides trying to get lucky with a different unit)? Might there be a Philips tech type who knows of some nifty software cure or a "magic" set of buttons that, pressed together through some finger acrobatics, might open an option to change the tuner video levels? That would be welcome news to so many of us with this dark tuner syndrome. It would seem that Philips would have solved this problem by this next generation unit. Thanks for any help.

Yes, someone recently PM'd me about this same issue with his 52" Samsung LCD. He had initially set his 3576 up and left some settings for HDMI wrong for his system, and hopefully the same might apply to you.

In working out the problem, I changed my Subject #10 in Post 1 of this thread to show others what might fix the issue as it did his. See the section on "HDMI Settings" 1/2-way down the page.

Here's a post specifically on the solution for his dark pic problem.
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post #799 of 27974 Old 05-12-2008, 06:23 AM
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Thanks for the effort in compiling all the data for the Philips 3575/76 DVDRs. One thing I would really like to know if there is any difference between the two models (the 3575 and 3576), or is the 3576 just a 3575 with a new number and a new paint job. I am planning to buy a 3575 unless there is a compelling reason (like the really nice looking black color) to spend the extra $50 for a 3576. Thanks for the info.
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post #800 of 27974 Old 05-12-2008, 06:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECam43 View Post

Thanks for the effort in compiling all the data for the Philips 3575/76 DVDRs. One thing I would really like to know if there is any difference between the two models (the 3575 and 3576), or is the 3576 just a 3575 with a new number and a new paint job. I am planning to buy a 3575 unless there is a compelling reason (like the really nice looking black color) to spend the extra $50 for a 3576. Thanks for the info.

Besides the case, the 3576 has new Front-End (FE) Firmware (FW) which Philips isn't making available for the 3575 yet, and the FE I assume includes the tuner... big maybe.

Anyway, I can't see getting a 3575 when Sam's Clubs have the new 3576 for $248.28 with a great return policy if you don't like it.

If you're an analog cable subscriber, I'd get a 3576...~38-40% of 3575 users who were also analog subscribers had a digital tuner problem from "analog interference." If you're OTA, the 3575/76 loves it! If you subscribe to digital cable or Sat, and you'd really like to save the $$, then the 3575 is just as good a choice... esp. Sat since the tuner can't be used for that, line connection only.
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post #801 of 27974 Old 05-12-2008, 09:33 AM
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Thanks to Kelson and wajo for suggestions re: the 3575 and 3576 dark tuner syndrome. I'll try those ideas and see what happens. My TV is a 1080 rez, and I have the 3576 setup to match. But, keep in mind that DVD's all play with correct contrast that matches broadcast black level (I'm an antenna guy--free TV is my signal source), it's only reception through the 3576's tuner that has dark, crushed black levels, whether viewed on HDMI or component connection. So, then that low level gets passed along to the HDD where playback looks just as bad. Presumably, any DVD's burned from that will also have the same ailment. But again, commercial DVD's present a perfect video level, whether played through HDMI or component. I don't see how trying a composite connection could fix the low-level tuner, but I'll certainly try it and see what happens. Thanks again to those who offered their input. I'll keep looking for a tuner software fix, too.
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post #802 of 27974 Old 05-12-2008, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Brightening a "Dark Picture" on Large-Screen TVs with the HDMI Format Setting

I just saw a great TV source for testing my 3575 tuner for "dark pic" via HDMI to my Vizio 47" 1080p LCD... except, it was a REVERSE situation to the "dark pic" a few others are reporting, primarily those using 768p TVs. My dark pic was in a live pic on my TV... no 3575 involved!

I'm an analog cable subscriber but one of my local analog channels (NBC 13) switched to HD broadcasting for their news... essentially, a "dense" HD-produced program on an analog channel. All other std analog channels show NO evidence of darkness on the TV itself, but on one occasion I noticed my local HD news looked noticeably dark overall ON THE TV ITSELF, i.e., in the signal being fed on the coax, not thru my 3575's normal line connection to the TV. Today, it was dark on the TV again... the weather lady was in a dark brown suit with 2 buttons on front, and it was hard to see the jacket split and the two buttons.

I recorded a segment on my 3575 where she was mostly facing the camera. I then played the rec and PAUSED to check PQ on the still frame, pressed STOP and changed the HDMI Format setting, pressed PLAY and got to the same pic and PAUSED to make a direct comparison.

I was set for YCbCr for HDMI (where RGB Range doesn't apply), with output set for 480p cuz my 1080p TV does a better job upscaling to its native res. When I switched from YCbCr to RGB Format, her suit (and the whole pic) brightened up and I could now see the split jacket and buttons. Setting my RGB Range to Enhanced added contrast, and the tuner pic became a little sharper, but it also became a little darker again.

However, after many tests and going back-and-forth, I finally settled on YCbCr, which gives me a noticeably sharper pic (and RGB Range has no effect). If I see any dark scenes that lose some detail, I'll just have to live with it! If I happened to play an entire movie shot in darkness, and it bothered me, I might switch to RGB/Normal just for that movie?

Anyway, it appears that programs produced and broadcast in HD, with its higher density pic, MAY present some "darkness" problems in the raw signal from the station, esp. on 768p TVs (usually 40" or smaller). Setting the 3575/76 for RGB/Normal might brighten that pic, altho some people get a brighter pic using YCbCr. It prob. depends on several factors, incl. channel, program and TV. In my case, it happens on an analog channel, with a digital HD production, viewed on my 47" 1080p LCD.

It appears people with "dark pic" should at least test the RGB/YCbCr settings to see their relative effect on the darkness of their pic. Based on my experience in my system, YCbCr MIGHT produce the best pic for the vast majority of things most people watch today?

I had a PM conversation with a 3576 user who has a 52" Samsung and got a dark pic in one particular scene of a commercial DVD. He set his 3576 to HDMI Format = YCbCr cuz it brightened his pic up for both TV watching and for recording! He also mentioned that there was a YCbCr setting in his TV, and setting that ON made things worse! Obviously, he just left his TV setting OFF.

Another user "just gave it time to correct itself" while watching thru Component RGB connection to his Samsung HDTV!

These may or may not have any effect on the 40" or smaller 1366x768 (720p) TVs some others have reported a "dark pic" on? Those people should really look for a TV setting that might be "DVD" or "DTV" usage cuz the 768p resolution is a COMPUTER resolution, which is what the design of many of these "smaller" TVs was based on. Finding a TV/DVD/DTV type setting might put the TV in video mode and more compatible with DVD/video scaler resolutions of 480i/p, 720p, and 1080i/p.
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post #803 of 27974 Old 05-12-2008, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCW View Post

My TV is a 1080 rez, and I have the 3576 setup to match. But, keep in mind that DVD's all play with correct contrast that matches broadcast black level (I'm an antenna guy--free TV is my signal source), it's only reception through the 3576's tuner that has dark, crushed black levels, whether viewed on HDMI or component connection.

Well, I'm not happy to read that. It's been known that the QAM tuner has more than it's share of problems, but there has been very little reported on the ATSC tuner so we've assumed no news is good news. So now the ATSC tuner is showing the black-level problem.

Please try the composite connection and even the S-video connection if you have a cable. Just to take it down to the most basic connection and see if the black-level problem persists.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #804 of 27974 Old 05-12-2008, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I'm not happy to read that.

Really!?
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post #805 of 27974 Old 05-12-2008, 02:06 PM
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Please try the composite connection and even the S-video connection if you have a cable. Just to take it down to the most basic connection and see if the black-level problem persists.

I still had it with that (with the 3575), but it did seem to lessen some. It didn't really bother me as much as it seems to bother a lot of other people, though. I'd rather have it a little too rich than washed out. I hate washed out.
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post #806 of 27974 Old 05-12-2008, 02:23 PM
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On the 3575 I also tried composite and S-video to no avail. I didn't like how something like a dark suit jacket would just look all black, instead of actually being able to see pinstripes/definition within the black.
Same with the whites, all white and no definition. If it weren't for that I'd still probably have the 3575. I think it has as much to do with a TV/DVDR mismatch than anything else. Some people report it, others say it's fine. I also tried the normal enhanced setting which did nothing in my case.
Ramm, I also dislike the washed out effect, both are undesirable.
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post #807 of 27974 Old 05-12-2008, 02:25 PM
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Anyone ever hear of the Apple TV Converter? It supossedly takes component video out and converts it to S-video eliminating the letterbox effect.

Here are a couple of sites with some information about the converter:

http://www.svideo.com/dvdrecorder.html
http://www.svideo.com/ypbpr2svideo.html

Thanks for any input

Robert
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post #808 of 27974 Old 05-12-2008, 02:26 PM
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Ramm, I also dislike the washed out effect, both are undesirable.

Yes - like my SD Dish. Going from that to the 3575 on my 32" analog (without separate input settings) was shocking, to say the least.
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post #809 of 27974 Old 05-12-2008, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes - like my SD Dish. Going from that to the 3575 on my 32" analog (without separate input settings) was shocking, to say the least.

Is that the "pretty bad" Dish SD signal you mentioned in other posts?
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post #810 of 27974 Old 05-12-2008, 03:51 PM
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Yeah. It has it's days where it looks better than usual, but it's mostly crap (don't believe it when they say digital is all or nothing - cold/hot/damp/dry/sunny/cloudy weather does affect it). Maybe when/if the Echostar TR-50 comes out I'll see what's available online for it. If it's decent and it's worth it, I'll finally dump the satellite service.
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