110" DIY Spandex AT Screen - Page 42 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1231 of 1307 Old 02-18-2018, 09:29 AM
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hey what kind of wood do you guys use for your frames?

We've been using the "black label" (maybe it's called "Select"?) stuff from Menards (it's more expensive than the other stuff) and it's so hard that it's kind of brittle and prone to splitting especially in short runs.

I'm thinking about building another screen now that spandex comes in bigger sizes.

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post #1232 of 1307 Old 02-18-2018, 09:57 AM
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hey what kind of wood do you guys use for your frames?

We've been using the "black label" (maybe it's called "Select"?) stuff from Menards (it's more expensive than the other stuff) and it's so hard that it's kind of brittle and prone to splitting especially in short runs.

I'm thinking about building another screen now that spandex comes in bigger sizes.
I used Choice Fir ..... Build post here
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post #1233 of 1307 Old 02-18-2018, 12:18 PM
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Poplar is the preferred choice....although a clear Fir solid couldn't be bad

Douglas Fir...or Birch would seem to be more readily available in Canada.

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post #1234 of 1307 Old 02-19-2018, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRock3x8 View Post
hey what kind of wood do you guys use for your frames?

We've been using the "black label" (maybe it's called "Select"?) stuff from Menards (it's more expensive than the other stuff) and it's so hard that it's kind of brittle and prone to splitting especially in short runs.

I'm thinking about building another screen now that spandex comes in bigger sizes.
I used a select 2x4x16'. I didn't feel like driving into the city to get a 16' poplar or other hardwood 1x4 and I didn't want to deal with joining two boards. I couldn't locate a nearby supplier so I used what was available from hd. No issues, 4 years in.

Some have suggested ripping 3/4" high quality plywood into 4" strips, running a shallow 3/4" dado down the middle and then glueing two strips together to make your own "engineered" lumber. This would very straight and if you were careful to not align seems you could easily span a long distance. I haven't tried it but it sounds interesting if you have the ability to easily rip plywood.
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post #1235 of 1307 Old 02-19-2018, 06:41 AM
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I used a select 2x4x16'. I didn't feel like driving into the city to get a 16' poplar or other hardwood 1x4 and I didn't want to deal with joining two boards. I couldn't locate a nearby supplier so I used what was available from hd. No issues, 4 years in.



Some have suggested ripping 3/4" high quality plywood into 4" strips, running a shallow 3/4" dado down the middle and then glueing two strips together to make your own "engineered" lumber. This would very straight and if you were careful to not align seems you could easily span a long distance. I haven't tried it but it sounds interesting if you have the ability to easily rip plywood.


I’m very anti-tools so the more ready made that it comes from the store the better.


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post #1236 of 1307 Old 02-19-2018, 06:50 AM
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Btw I mentioned to my wife that I was considering building a larger screen and she walked out of the room. Oooookay - kids who wants to help dad with a PROJECT?!?


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post #1237 of 1307 Old 03-27-2018, 06:41 PM
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Question

My front wall acoustic treatment is defeated by a 120" PVC fabric screen that I wish to replace.

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Behind the screen is dark foam.

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I am struggling to understand why two layers are necessary in my case.

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1 Layer is NOT advisable
The room lighting is fully controlled and my projector is an Epson 3020 rated at 2300 lumens.

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If I have all black wall and black speaker behind the screen, do I still need to put black layer?
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Yes, because having another Spandex surface directly behind the Top layer prevents excessive light leakage / pass-through, as well as contributes to both a enhancement of the image sharpness and a booting of Black levels.
Why would a dark background not perform like a black backing layer?
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post #1238 of 1307 Old 03-27-2018, 07:18 PM
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When two layers are used, the Front Spandex Layer lays directly against the Rear Layer. Fully against...touching. The dark rear layer both blocks further excessive light penetration through the porous Spandex as well as give the black levels a boost.

If you were to stretch the Spandex and have it actually touch against that textured surface, the texture would transmit through. That is why all interior Vertical supports on Spandex Frames are recessed at least 1/4" behind the forward leading edge of the exterior Frame the Spandex is stretched across.

Now if you were using any other AT cloth...perforated or woven, that had a higher gain because it's overall surface area was more dense (...and less "AT"...) then the prescribed use of a Black background such as yours would be sufficient.

But in this case it is not enough, and a great many other Users, as well as those who have bothered to text Spandex all will state the same thing.

It's necessary...and how it's done.
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post #1239 of 1307 Old 03-27-2018, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
When two layers are used, the Front Spandex Layer lays directly against the Rear Layer. Fully against...touching. The dark rear layer both blocks further excessive light penetration through the porous Spandex as well as give the black levels a boost.

If you were to stretch the Spandex and have it actually touch against that textured surface, the texture would transmit through. That is why all interior Vertical supports on Spandex Frames are recessed at least 1/4" behind the forward leading edge of the exterior Frame the Spandex is stretched across.

Now if you were using any other AT cloth...perforated or woven, that had a higher gain because it's overall surface area was more dense (...and less "AT"...) then the prescribed use of a Black background such as yours would be sufficient.

But in this case it is not enough, and a great many other Users, as well as those who have bothered to text Spandex all will state the same thing.

It's necessary...and how it's done.
i've read over and over that most people are going with white & a silver backing. how does white with a black backing fair? wouldn't that yield better perceived black levels & contrast?
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post #1240 of 1307 Old 03-28-2018, 12:42 AM
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Neat!
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post #1241 of 1307 Old 03-28-2018, 02:39 AM
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i've read over and over that most people are going with white & a silver backing.
That's a misconception.

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how does white with a black backing fair?
That's how it should be done. Only deviate from it if you have a compelling reason to do so.

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post #1242 of 1307 Old 03-28-2018, 04:21 AM
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i've read over and over that most people are going with white & a silver backing. how does white with a black backing fair? wouldn't that yield better perceived black levels & contrast?
As stated above...but this time with more conviction, you've misread. White over Black has been the standard for quite a while. The only time when there was some using Silver over White (....or White over White....) was at least 5+ years ago. At the beginning of this Thread

There is no advantage in using White over Gray(Silver)...and even less desirable is using Silver over Gray. The former not delivering as sharp and contrast-y an image, and the latter attenuating Whites too much.

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post #1243 of 1307 Old 03-28-2018, 04:52 AM
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As stated above...but this time with more conviction, you've misread. White over Black has been the standard for quite a while. The only time when there was some using Silver over White (....or White over White....) was at least 5+ years ago. At the beginning of this Thread
Not really. I've used white over white just recently because of the very low light output from a LG PF1000.
Gray over black might be ok IF there's some ambient light AND the projector has high light output.

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There is no advantage in using White over Gray(Silver)...and even less desirable is using Silver over Gray. The former not delivering as sharp and contrast-y an image, and the latter attenuating Whites too much.
There is no "silver" Milliskin Matte. It's just a misnomer. "Silver" Milliskin Matte is just a matte bluish/greenish gray (proper screen calibration needed!). Spandex World does offer a shiny and even metallic Spandex though. I doubt it is of any usefulness for our intent and purpose.

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post #1244 of 1307 Old 03-28-2018, 06:25 AM
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I did white over black in my very dimly lit theater. I have no experience with other forms of DIY screens but I really do enjoy the crisp image quality.
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post #1245 of 1307 Old 03-28-2018, 01:06 PM
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As stated above...but this time with more conviction, you've misread. White over Black has been the standard for quite a while. The only time when there was some using Silver over White (....or White over White....) was at least 5+ years ago. At the beginning of this Thread

There is no advantage in using White over Gray(Silver)...and even less desirable is using Silver over Gray. The former not delivering as sharp and contrast-y an image, and the latter attenuating Whites too much.
is there any other color configuration for those with projectors that don't have the best contrast? the epson 2150 i have is incredibly bright and looks really good with a darker screen (using a silver ticket high contrast .95 gain screen right now). does anyone have a rough idea of the gain with white over black spandex?
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post #1246 of 1307 Old 03-28-2018, 02:52 PM
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Don't have a reference screen with known gain at hand but I would estimate a Spandex screen is less than 0.7.

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post #1247 of 1307 Old 03-28-2018, 04:06 PM
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Not really. I've used white over white just recently because of the very low light output from a LG PF1000.
You chose that out of necessity....not because it was the best performer. And I didn't see much posted about it either. I stand by what I said with this added.....no one with a true Home Theater PJ capable of putting up a larger size image, would consider White over White these days. Seems to me I remember your having tested (audio) a 127" Silver over White a couple 3 years ago. I don't know what PJ was used....but almost assuredly not the LG. That would have been a terribly dim image.

White over White is known to detract from image sharpness. The LG's LED engine might compensate a bit for that, but the known consensus is White over White is not preferred.

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There is no "silver" Milliskin Matte. It's just a misnomer. "Silver" Milliskin Matte is just a matte bluish/greenish gray (proper screen calibration needed!). Spandex World does offer a shiny and even metallic Spandex though. I doubt it is of any usefulness for our intent and purpose.
No misnomer...it's what they (Spandex World) calls "Light Silver" because it is such a light Gray. It's not presented as being a :metallic" anyway.....just a Color's name. But that is why it's basically useless, because over White....there are issues with both 1st surface attenuation and poor focus / clarity issues due to the White rebound. Put Light Silver over "Light Silver" or Black, and the attenuation (loss of gain) becomes extreme.

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post #1248 of 1307 Old 03-29-2018, 01:10 AM
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You chose that out of necessity....not because it was the best performer. And I didn't see much posted about it either. I stand by what I said with this added.....no one with a true Home Theater PJ capable of putting up a larger size image, would consider White over White these days. Seems to me I remember your having tested (audio) a 127" Silver over White a couple 3 years ago. I don't know what PJ was used....but almost assuredly not the LG. That would have been a terribly dim image.
Same difference. Whatever gives you the best performance under the given circumstances is the best performer.

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White over White is known to detract from image sharpness.
Good to see you finally support that view. Not too long ago I remember that you were arguing against it.

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The LG's LED engine might compensate a bit for that, but the known consensus is White over White is not preferred.
Not sure why the LED engine should compensate for the loss of image sharpness. The LGs aren't sharp nor very uniform nor bright.

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No misnomer...it's what they (Spandex World) calls "Light Silver" because it is such a light Gray. It's not presented as being a :metallic" anyway.....just a Color's name. But that is why it's basically useless, because over White....there are issues with both 1st surface attenuation and poor focus / clarity issues due to the White rebound. Put Light Silver over "Light Silver" or Black, and the attenuation (loss of gain) becomes extreme.
Well, in that case your definition of "silver" and its appearance is different from mine.

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post #1249 of 1307 Old 03-29-2018, 03:35 AM
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does anyone have a rough idea of the gain with white over black spandex?

The Spandex Gain Comparison thread offers some nice comparisons.

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This seems to agree with the W+W falling a little below 1.0gain, but to my eyes it looked like the white-over-black might land closer to 0.6gain.

Of note:

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I took my white over white apart last night and converted it to a white over black. For my screen size I think that it is a bit too dim. White over white is significantly brighter.

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post #1250 of 1307 Old 03-29-2018, 10:20 AM
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Good to see you finally support that view. Not too long ago I remember that you were arguing against it.
Your memory is skewered. I've been advocating White over Black for well over 3 years ever since I made one up myself. Not exactly what one would consider "not too long ago". (...before that it was always White over Light Silver...NEVER over White.)

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Well, in that case your definition of "silver" and its appearance is different from mine.
Are you countering my comments just for the sake of posting? I made no personal determination as to how exacting a color the Light Silver is on any scale of measurement, I simply stated what Spandex World names it and why.

Kind of a senseless point for you to make anyway, considering it was you that brought it up in response to someone asking about it's use....and receiving advice to NOT use it.

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post #1251 of 1307 Old 03-29-2018, 11:41 AM
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MississippiMan, not sure how your reply relates to what was actually said, so I bow out of this "discussion".

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post #1252 of 1307 Old 03-29-2018, 11:54 AM
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is there any other color configuration for those with projectors that don't have the best contrast? the epson 2150 i have is incredibly bright and looks really good with a darker screen (using a silver ticket high contrast .95 gain screen right now). does anyone have a rough idea of the gain with white over black spandex?
.6 or .7 are numbers I have seen people throw out for spandex gains. I am using white over black with the 2150 and am very satisfied with the picture.
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post #1253 of 1307 Old 03-29-2018, 01:54 PM
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.6 or .7 are numbers I have seen people throw out for spandex gains. I am using white over black with the 2150 and am very satisfied with the picture.
I just received my white and black spandex and will be going from the white over light silver to white over black. Hopefully I will get some time this weekend to work on it. I will try to get some comparison photos.
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post #1254 of 1307 Old 03-29-2018, 03:51 PM
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I just received my white and black spandex and will be going from the white over light silver to white over black. Hopefully I will get some time this weekend to work on it. I will try to get some comparison photos.
That would definitely be cool.
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post #1255 of 1307 Old 03-29-2018, 03:55 PM
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I just received my white and black spandex and will be going from the white over light silver to white over black. Hopefully I will get some time this weekend to work on it. I will try to get some comparison photos.
I would love to see the results. I've also got white over silver..
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post #1256 of 1307 Old 03-30-2018, 06:47 AM
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I just received my white and black spandex and will be going from the white over light silver to white over black. Hopefully I will get some time this weekend to work on it. I will try to get some comparison photos.
is this the new 120 width?
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post #1257 of 1307 Old 03-30-2018, 08:19 AM
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is this the new 120 width?
No, this is the regular size. I am not going large enough to need the 120" size.
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post #1258 of 1307 Old 04-01-2018, 09:20 AM
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My front wall acoustic treatment is defeated by a 120" PVC fabric screen that I wish to replace.

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Just finished.

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The PVC screen that came with the aforementioned package defeated much of the front wall acoustic treatment, at least in the mid and high frequency ranges. This morning I removed the PVC material from the frame and replaced it with acoustically transparent white over black Milliskin Spandex ordered on Amazon for $50 delivered and am very pleased with the improvement.

3 of Lycra Matte Milliskin Nylon Spandex Fabric 4 Way Stretch 58" wide Sold By The Yard Many Colors (White)
3 of Lycra Matte Milliskin Nylon Spandex Fabric 4 Way Stretch 58" wide Sold By The Yard Many Colors (Black)

Spandex screen:


RT60 comparison:
Acoustically, it is a significant improvement, and after changing the projector's color temperature from 6500K to 6000K, the image looks at least as good as before, so this was a worthy mod.
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post #1259 of 1307 Old 04-06-2018, 10:29 AM
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I have been a little busy and did not have any time last weekend to work on my screen upgrade. I forgot it was Easter and ended up having no time to work on my projects. Good news is I squeezed in some time this week and have made progress. I get zero help from the family, so this has been a solo project and is taking a little longer than I want. It is coming out better than my first effort. I did not over stretch the fabric this time and it looks much nicer over all than the first build. I should have the screen mounted this weekend and will do some comparison testing with the white over silver vs. white over black.

I did notice that the old white material did yellow over time. It has been mounted in a basement for nearly 4 years and some discoloration/aging is expected. I did some before photos and can wash the material to better represent a finished "clean" screen of white over silver. I attached some photos of the work so far.
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post #1260 of 1307 Old 04-06-2018, 12:03 PM
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How the hell do you stretch the fabric without help?

Did you use the 120? Sorry if this is not the first time I’ve asked.


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