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post #31 of 72 Old 06-20-2018, 06:29 AM
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All those espousing about how incorrect the concept of using a horizontally designed Center seem intent on trying to convince the OP to spend far more than is necessary in his instance, as well as discount the advice on design he's been given...and it seems quite unusual that individuals who spend virtually no time on this DIY Screen Forum would all suddenly gravitate to here to support a contention that NO such horizontal Center Channel is even worthy to consider.

I personally have used Centers of such horizontal design, from modest one by Polk audio to Klispch's best THX-Ultras and KEFs best. Some with AT applications...some for "above or below"screen apps. But strangely enough, no such protestations seem to be posted on threads where others are spending those sums required to purchase such higher end Horizontal Centers.

Even queerer is the total disregard of how the Project involved, and the design thereof is based on the premise that the Center array is being centered directly within the screen area, Top to Bottom as well as side to side...

Where then are the posts that expound about how worthless and ineffectual a high end Klispch Center (in-wall or cabinet) or KEF Center absolutely must be, or the questions as to why those Company's Engineers would even go down that path? (...are they afraid of the Hue & Cry they would get from the respective users /advertisers? )

The measurements published by those who test for such differences do not represent what most individuals experience, let alone could actually hear, and truthfully, only those who live by the belief that a published measurement always determines worthiness in performance are in such total agreement. While all those who have posted are admittedly focused on the upper echelons of Equipment, it's almost comical to see the postings by these people over this subject, as if this less-than-optimal advice the OP has been given is so off base and detrimental that it demands their immediate attention. They are not so much interested in how their efforts serve to derail progress, or how it can leave the OP in confusion and/or uncertainty as it seems more a case where the most important thing going on is to discount the given advice and bolster their own arguments with published articles.

Until we see them rant & rail on the Threads where others are so grossly and mistakenly considering using Horizontal Centers by Klispch or KEFs or other higher end examples on HT Build threads and on the "Speaker Forums", they should lower their upturned noses a bit and admit that the differences are extremely small, even minute when taken into context with the application intended.

farsider3000 came the closest to being somewhat more reasonable by stating, "How much difference is actually audible is a different story." , while chriscmore's hyperbole laden, "monstrous horizontally redundant compromises" comment clearly shows how he's lost any grasp on how the realities in the real world actually affect how people perceive their own levels of satisfaction...as relates to expenditure.

As for the rest...well all it really seems to be is a Post "Like" party by individuals who follow each other around. There is no reason at all that they would otherwise be on this Forum....because my advice is not so "off Center" as to warrant the effusive responses it is receiving.
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post #32 of 72 Old 06-20-2018, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
All those espousing about how incorrect the concept of using a horizontally designed Center seem intent on trying to convince the OP to spend far more than is necessary in his instance, as well as discount the advice on design he's been given...and it seems quite unusual that individuals who spend virtually no time on this DIY Screen Forum would all suddenly gravitate to here to support a contention that NO such horizontal Center Channel is even worthy to consider.

I personally have used Centers of such horizontal design, from modest one by Polk audio to Klispch's best THX-Ultras and KEFs best. Some with AT applications...some for "above or below"screen apps. But strangely enough, no such protestations seem to be posted on threads where others are spending those sums required to purchase such higher end Horizontal Centers.

Even queerer is the total disregard of how the Project involved, and the design thereof is based on the premise that the Center array is being centered directly within the screen area, Top to Bottom as well as side to side...

Where then are the posts that expound about how worthless and ineffectual a high end Klispch Center (in-wall or cabinet) or KEF Center absolutely must be, or the questions as to why those Company's Engineers would even go down that path? (...are they afraid of the Hue & Cry they would get from the respective users /advertisers? )

The measurements published by those who test for such differences do not represent what most individuals experience, let alone could actually hear, and truthfully, only those who live by the belief that a published measurement always determines worthiness in performance are in such total agreement. While all those who have posted are admittedly focused on the upper echelons of Equipment, it's almost comical to see the postings by these people over this subject, as if this less-than-optimal advice the OP has been given is so off base and detrimental that it demands their immediate attention. They are not so much interested in how their efforts serve to derail progress, or how it can leave the OP in confusion and/or uncertainty as it seems more a case where the most important thing going on is to discount the given advice and bolster their own arguments with published articles.

Until we see them rant & rail on the Threads where others are so grossly and mistakenly considering using Horizontal Centers by Klispch or KEFs or other higher end examples on HT Build threads and on the "Speaker Forums", they should lower their upturned noses a bit and admit that the differences are extremely small, even minute when taken into context with the application intended.

farsider3000 came the closest to being somewhat more reasonable by stating, "How much difference is actually audible is a different story." , while chriscmore's hyperbole laden, "monstrous horizontally redundant compromises" comment clearly shows how he's lost any grasp on how the realities in the real world actually affect how people perceive their own levels of satisfaction...as relates to expenditure.

As for the rest...well all it really seems to be is a Post "Like" party by individuals who follow each other around. There is no reason at all that they would otherwise be on this Forum....because my advice is not so "off Center" as to warrant the effusive responses it is receiving.
So, I feel like I’ve helped stir some stuff up here and I want to apologize for that. First, I am not actually the OP, I just piggy backed off this thread because I had the same exact issue. Second, MississippiMan has been a tremendous help to me to try to figure things out and has gone way above and beyond what most people would ever do in a public forum like this. In his last reply, he was 100% correct that all this back and forth had really confused me (and I’m sure many others) and was getting me away from what I need to do. My budget is not 4K (I think that was the OP), I need to keep it as low as possible, considering I haven't even spent 3K on framing out the basement, HVAC, some plumbing, most electrical and an AVR. I had some numbers in my mind for how much to spend, but I need to balance that out with needing to finish the rest of the basement and getting the most "bang for my buck".

I am not an audiophile, I am nowhere NEAR that and neither are my family and friends. I need something that would sound good with streaming movies (through plex), TV shows, and live sports. Based on what I’ve read on here, and the now lots of research I’ve done myself, I think MississippiMan is completely correct. He's not saying that a horizontal speaker is the ONLY way to go, he's saying that in this situation, and many others, a horizontal speaker would do great and is designed for this exact setup. Like MississippiMan said, I think this sort of discussion should be done in a speaker section, or at least on a thread that specifically asks the question between vertical and horizontal Center (there are plenty). Providing your opinion is one thing, but to then put down someone else's doesn't help facilitate discussion, it just helps get the thread moving in the wrong direction.

Let’s now please just put this to rest as I will be going with a horizontal center for a variety of reasons and get back to how to structure and design my false wall and whether or not I should use in wall or “book shelf” speakers 😊
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post #33 of 72 Old 06-20-2018, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
All those espousing about how incorrect the concept of using a horizontally designed Center seem intent on trying to convince the OP to spend far more than is necessary in his instance, as well as discount the advice on design he's been given...and it seems quite unusual that individuals who spend virtually no time on this DIY Screen Forum would all suddenly gravitate to here to support a contention that NO such horizontal Center Channel is even worthy to consider.

I personally have used Centers of such horizontal design, from modest one by Polk audio to Klispch's best THX-Ultras and KEFs best. Some with AT applications...some for "above or below"screen apps. But strangely enough, no such protestations seem to be posted on threads where others are spending those sums required to purchase such higher end Horizontal Centers.

Even queerer is the total disregard of how the Project involved, and the design thereof is based on the premise that the Center array is being centered directly within the screen area, Top to Bottom as well as side to side...

Where then are the posts that expound about how worthless and ineffectual a high end Klispch Center (in-wall or cabinet) or KEF Center absolutely must be, or the questions as to why those Company's Engineers would even go down that path? (...are they afraid of the Hue & Cry they would get from the respective users /advertisers? )

The measurements published by those who test for such differences do not represent what most individuals experience, let alone could actually hear, and truthfully, only those who live by the belief that a published measurement always determines worthiness in performance are in such total agreement. While all those who have posted are admittedly focused on the upper echelons of Equipment, it's almost comical to see the postings by these people over this subject, as if this less-than-optimal advice the OP has been given is so off base and detrimental that it demands their immediate attention. They are not so much interested in how their efforts serve to derail progress, or how it can leave the OP in confusion and/or uncertainty as it seems more a case where the most important thing going on is to discount the given advice and bolster their own arguments with published articles.

Until we see them rant & rail on the Threads where others are so grossly and mistakenly considering using Horizontal Centers by Klispch or KEFs or other higher end examples on HT Build threads and on the "Speaker Forums", they should lower their upturned noses a bit and admit that the differences are extremely small, even minute when taken into context with the application intended.

farsider3000 came the closest to being somewhat more reasonable by stating, "How much difference is actually audible is a different story." , while chriscmore's hyperbole laden, "monstrous horizontally redundant compromises" comment clearly shows how he's lost any grasp on how the realities in the real world actually affect how people perceive their own levels of satisfaction...as relates to expenditure.

As for the rest...well all it really seems to be is a Post "Like" party by individuals who follow each other around. There is no reason at all that they would otherwise be on this Forum....because my advice is not so "off Center" as to warrant the effusive responses it is receiving.


Let’s not turn this into a war. I think you need to realize that your advice may have some flaws and we just want the OP to get the correct information.

We are not against you, just against incorrect information that goes against every SME in the industry. You are a very knowledgeable and simply saying that the best approach is the same LCR but we can get close using a horizontal center if necessary in this case would be the right approach.

There are a lot of folks, including me, that have a lot of knowledge on building screen walls and specifically building baffle walls, soundproofing and other areas but we all have to be willing to say “I made a mistake or I am wrong, thanks for showing me this new information”

Anyway I am out. Carry on as you see fit.


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post #34 of 72 Old 06-20-2018, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
We are not against you, just against incorrect information that goes against every SME in the industry. You are a very knowledgeable and simply saying that the best approach is the same LCR but we can get close using a horizontal center if necessary in this case would be the right approach.

....which is essentially what I said. (...less the LCR part...) That is why I felt the comment "...makes great good sense" was applicable and just...not because it was the only possible solution as the responses received would have indicate. That position was unjustly attributed to me to make the objections carry more weight. Not a Crisis situation for me...at least not on the order it was made out to be.


Quote:
There are a lot of folks, including me, that have a lot of knowledge on building screen walls and specifically building baffle walls, soundproofing and other areas but we all have to be willing to say “I made a mistake or I am wrong, thanks for showing me this new information”

Anyway I am out. Carry on as you see fit.
I'm always willing to admit an error.....but I've also quite often have seen how some Members grab onto almost anything that deviates from their own opinions / knowledge base and take it as being a personal affront to the World at large. And when such obtuse comments are offered up, it almost always snowballs into Tit-for-Tat and "I gotta have the last word in" sorta replies.


So in keeping with the last point......let me say that my advice was in fact both design and cost oriented, based on the case at hand. It just seemed everyone else's comments were "centered" on disproving those suggestions more than really worrying about the OPs situation.


I appreciate your even handed response above, and should I come across someone who can see their way clear to spending more...or in the least "spending correctly", I will keep what I have seen posted in mind.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hossien Oveys View Post
Let’s now please just put this to rest as I will be going with a horizontal center for a variety of reasons and get back to how to structure and design my false wall and whether or not I should use in wall or “book shelf” speakers 😊

Just noticed the post above.....I probably didn't need to post the rest, nor would have had I noticed it before hitting "Submit". In any case, out of respect for Hossien's wishes, it won't be addressed by me again.

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Last edited by MississippiMan; 06-20-2018 at 08:31 AM.
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post #35 of 72 Old 06-20-2018, 09:29 AM
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Using a vertical center is not about spending more money. You don't have to spend more money. You just buy three identical speakers. Often times a center speaker costs more than the left or right speaker, so not about spending more money. Having a tweeter with two woofers on each side (horizontal center) does not increase the horizontal dispersion, it does just the opposite, it reduces the horizontal dispersion. Which is bad for a center. A horizontal center with woofers on each side, has a lot of vertical dispersion and that is also bad for a speaker that is either close to the floor (under the screen) or close to the ceiling (above the screen). Means you get a strong reflection off the floor or the ceiling, which you do not want.

If you are doing an AT screen, it would be foolish to use a horizontal center speaker. You use three identical speakers placed vertically. That way everything matches and the sound pans across the screen. A horizontal center is a compromise for those that can't have a center channel speaker in the correct location. In other words, anyone that is not using an AT screen. HT is always about compromise. Those that use AT screens to not compromise the audio, are compromising the video, since an AT screen is not going to be as good video wise as lets say a Stewart ST100 screen. But many feel the slight compromise in video is worth it for the audio. I definitely would pick a baffle wall system using an AT screen over a solid screen with a horizontal center. I have owned both and the baffle wall system is the much better overall performing HT design.

If you look at Klipsch's THX systems, you will notice that for center, you just use a left or right KL-650 THX speaker. If you do have to use a horizontal center, it is best if you use one that is at least designed the best that they can do for that situation. Notice how in the 2-way designs the tweeter is offset upwards and in the 3-way designs the tweeter and mid are vertical. The last picture is a center that is not designed correctly.

It is not the end of the world to use a horizontal center, even one that is not designed properly, but if doing an AT screen it does not make sense to not do it correctly, especially when it probably does not cost you any additional money.
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post #36 of 72 Old 06-20-2018, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hossien Oveys View Post
So, I feel like I’ve helped stir some stuff up here and I want to apologize for that. First, I am not actually the OP, I just piggy backed off this thread because I had the same exact issue. Second, MississippiMan has been a tremendous help to me to try to figure things out and has gone way above and beyond what most people would ever do in a public forum like this. In his last reply, he was 100% correct that all this back and forth had really confused me (and I’m sure many others) and was getting me away from what I need to do. My budget is not 4K (I think that was the OP), I need to keep it as low as possible, considering I haven't even spent 3K on framing out the basement, HVAC, some plumbing, most electrical and an AVR. I had some numbers in my mind for how much to spend, but I need to balance that out with needing to finish the rest of the basement and getting the most "bang for my buck".



I am not an audiophile, I am nowhere NEAR that and neither are my family and friends. I need something that would sound good with streaming movies (through plex), TV shows, and live sports. Based on what I’ve read on here, and the now lots of research I’ve done myself, I think MississippiMan is completely correct. He's not saying that a horizontal speaker is the ONLY way to go, he's saying that in this situation, and many others, a horizontal speaker would do great and is designed for this exact setup. Like MississippiMan said, I think this sort of discussion should be done in a speaker section, or at least on a thread that specifically asks the question between vertical and horizontal Center (there are plenty). Providing your opinion is one thing, but to then put down someone else's doesn't help facilitate discussion, it just helps get the thread moving in the wrong direction.



Let’s now please just put this to rest as I will be going with a horizontal center for a variety of reasons and get back to how to structure and design my false wall and whether or not I should use in wall or “book shelf” speakers


There are plenty of people that help out on this forum and we just want to make sure you understand that everything he is telling you about needing a center channel for your design is not correct. Go either three identical speakers for LCR and do not use a horizontal center. I hope you will listen to us as you are receding bad advice regarding speakers. We also need to address a few design issues with the wall but we will stop here.


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post #37 of 72 Old 06-20-2018, 09:56 AM
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..."Not correct" ....."bad advice"


All that and he's "Out" too.

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post #38 of 72 Old 07-10-2019, 12:02 PM
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Long time listener, first time poster!

I recently purchased my first home and am attempting to design my own theater, but some of the things said on this thread have me a bit worried that I am going about it wrong.

I currently want to build a wall out about 2.5 feet from the rear wall and place all of my speakers behind it (3x Ascend acoustics CMT-340 for LCR and 2x Rythmik FV15HP for subs). I want to go with a 135" 16:9 ratio, but you mention that it wouldn't provide enough separation from L & R. However, on a 1:2.35 screen, the width would be identical, as that seems to be the limiting factor in this room (7' ceilings...). I plan to use an epson 5050ub projector. My total budget looks like it's around 10,000 right now.

I want to put my speakers on stands behind the false wall and NOT build them into the wall so that I can toe them in toward the main listening position. Would you recommend something like that? Is there something glaring that I am missing?

I can see in your previously provided plans that you have a cutout for the subs in the 2x4 framing, but suggested an mdf enclosure - if the subs are on pegs and not touching the AT wall, is a complete mdf enclosure required?

Any input would be appreciated - you have given me some great ideas already!
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post #39 of 72 Old 07-11-2019, 02:58 AM
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No enclosure needed....unless the Subs are rear or bottom ported and you want to reclaim the would be lost air pressure.

Fortunately the Rythmik FV15HP s are Dual front ported....so the only concern would be having a stout, well braced stand.

I would suggest you start a dedicated DIY Thread of your own. You can keep it on this Forum, or post it in Dedicated Theater Design and Construction

You can get most of the Room's build advice advice you need here though............ It won't be nearly as crowded or confusing.
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post #40 of 72 Old 07-11-2019, 05:23 AM
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Awesome, once I get started I will look into starting my own build thread. Currently, the whole room is on one 15A circuit....so I won't start too much until I get an electrician in there

For a wall this size, do you think 16:9 is the way to go? I don't see an advantage of 16:9, as the screen width will be the same between the two.

When you say "this forum" are you referring to "AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews > Display Devices > Screens > DIY Screen Section > Acoustically Transparent Screen - False Wall tips" or are you referring to the site?

Thanks!
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post #41 of 72 Old 07-11-2019, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Bartels View Post
When you say "this forum" are you referring to "AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews > Display Devices > Screens > DIY Screen Section > Acoustically Transparent Screen - False Wall tips" or are you referring to the site?
Thanks!

Right HERE!



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For a wall this size, do you think 16:9 is the way to go? I don't see an advantage of 16:9, as the screen width will be the same between the two.

Hmmmm...your wall is 12'-8" (156") and you have 7' ceilings. (84"). That is "height challenged" by anyone's standard.

Since your only designing in 4 Seats (...and you can do that with the right choice of seats...) the bottom of the screen could be 14" off the Floor and the Top of the Screen 9" down from the Ceiling. That applies to whatever Format is chosen A 16:9 that is situated equal distance between the Ceiling and Floor would be 63" high x 112" wide (131 diagonal) However..........
...............If you choose a 2.39:1 C.I.H. Screen, you could have one that is 63"high x 150" wide (163" diagonal)

That's Epic! And after all, the tallest screen you can sensibly do is 63" (...more on this point below...)

Such a screen w/Frame would stretch the full distance between the walls, so that you could place the Speakers into each corner and Toe them inward to your ideal angle. The Side Walls that connect to the Screen Wall would need Treatment with either 40" x 84" Black Velvet Wrapped Panels, and of course the Ceiling must be made to be anti-reflective....to the uttermost degree. Black Paint is not always the answer....or even the best answer. Usually a Room's Ceilings and Wall can be made completely "reflection suppressive by using a very Dark Neutral Grey or saturated Dark Blue, both in a Flat sheen but using a paint with a high acrylic content. Primer / Paint combos fall under that umbrella, so do Paints that list themselves as "Interior Enamels"

At the prescribed Screen size, and based upon the needed 17'-5" Throw to accommodate the Screen sizes, each screen 2.39: and 16:9 would put out 20 fl and 31 fl respectfully. Both are very acceptable numbers for such large Spandex Screens.

Thanks for that goes primarily to the 5050.

Now you could scale the width back....but it would be shameful to do so. I see you seats being placed at 11.5 to 12.5' "eyes to screen" and that is both as close and as far as you want to be. 1:1 works great for 2.39:1 immersion, and naturally the C.I.H. 16:9 is right there at center.




OK...so now someone doesn't want to be sensible?

A few Members have gone to having 16:9 virtually Floor to Ceiling, and advocate C.I.W. as being their choice. Certainly TV and other 16:9 formatted content can be made bigger. With the same 17'-5" Throw, you could put up a 16:9 screen of 76" High x 135" Wide (155" diagonal) and place the Screen 4" off the Floor and 4" off the Ceiling. The loss of width on 2.39:1 would result in a diagonal of 146" @ 57" x 135"

2.39:1 damage?

6" of Screen Height lost....15" of Width gone.

...........but you do gain another 3 fl out to 23 fl ....in both formats. Gonna have to deal with the 9.5" Top & Bottom Horizontal Bars though...and they are imminently tougher than Vertical on each side

Isn't this Fun?

FTR...........I'd strongly suggest going C.I.H

And by the looks of your Floor Plan....the very next thing I would suggest of someone would be to build a Bar behind the Seats, and by doing so add 4-5 more chairs (Stools). Easier done than you might think, and "36" high seat" Bar Stools w/Backs & Arm Rests can be had for as little a $90.00 ea.

Best of all....no issues of the Bar Flies not being able to see the Screen.

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post #42 of 72 Old 07-11-2019, 10:19 AM
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Thanks for that insight - you are causing me to reconsider my 16:9 ratio....so...with that in mind, I have a couple additional planning questions with 1:2.39



I see this --> STR-235158-WAB 158" Diagonal, 2.35:1 Cinematic Anamorphic 4K Ultra HD (6 Piece Fixed Frame) Projector Screen, Woven Acoustic with Backing (I would post link, but forum won't allow me yet) that could meet the criteria for the C.I.H. screen. To get your exact dims, I would have to go DIY. I have briefly looked into this, and it doesn't seem to save a whole lot of $$ when compared to one of these screens. Maybe I should look further.

I would like at least a small black bezel around the edge of the screen, and this one meets that criterion. It is a bit on the small side when compared to what you are recommending, though. Do you have any premade screen recommendations? I see that you recommend spandex a lot in some of your other posts - is there a reason for this that trumps woven material?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post


And by the looks of your Floor Plan....the very next thing I would suggest of someone would be to build a Bar behind the Seats, and by doing so add 4-5 more chairs (Stools). Easier done than you might think, and "36" high seat" Bar Stools w/Backs & Arm Rests can be had for as little a $90.00 ea.

Best of all....no issues of the Bar Flies not being able to see the Screen.
I actually planned on this! I just didn't include it in my initial drawing. I was thinking of going with 4 seats with a love seat in the center - I see that octane seating has those options available. You know your stuff, though - so let me know if you have recommendations on the seating front!
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post #43 of 72 Old 07-11-2019, 04:41 PM
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Just got in from a traumatic day...I'll respond in depth later tonight....after several nerve-relaxing Black & Tans.

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Just got in from a traumatic day...I'll respond in depth later tonight....after several nerve-relaxing Black & Tans.
Sorry to hear that - if you're ever in Columbus, let me know - we have some good beers!
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Sorry to hear that - if you're ever in Columbus, let me know - we have some good beers!

I get around......be in Chicago then Indy all through next week, then driving down through Cincy and Nashville toward home.


Yeah...a faded out last night and been out again all today. Hang on....comin' atcha soon.

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Originally Posted by Kyle Bartels View Post
Thanks for that insight - you are causing me to reconsider my 16:9 ratio....so...with that in mind, I have a couple additional planning questions with 1:2.39

I see this --> STR-235158-WAB 158" Diagonal, 2.35:1 Cinematic Anamorphic 4K Ultra HD (6 Piece Fixed Frame) Projector Screen, Woven Acoustic with Backing (I would post link, but forum won't allow me yet) that could meet the criteria for the C.I.H. screen. To get your exact dims, I would have to go DIY. I have briefly looked into this, and it doesn't seem to save a whole lot of $$ when compared to one of these screens. Maybe I should look further.
No...surprisingly, at 158" and at the price point it's listed at on Amazon, AND being a Prime item, you can't lose there. It is a bit more expensive than DIY...and the surface cannot touch Spandex for smoothness of weave or in Acoustic performance. But it's certainly "as good as" many far more expensive Mfg. AT Screen...at any comparable size. And it will have a Gain of almost 1.0....appreciably brighter than Spandex's0.7

Get it...unpack it carefully and save the Box / materials.
Assemble and hang,and evaluate the surface weave from you sitting area. If it's plainly noticeable and BTHOOY...pack it up and send it back.


Spandex and us...we ain't going anywhere.


Quote:
I would like at least a small black bezel around the edge of the screen, and this one meets that criterion. It is a bit on the small side when compared to what you are recommending, though.
Small he sez...... Hmmmmm.........

Quote:
Do you have any premade screen recommendations? I see that you recommend spandex a lot in some of your other posts - is there a reason for this that trumps woven material?
Spandex has almost Esoteric Quality levels compared to all but a select few Mfg offerings (2) and is fractionally as expensive to make...and as the screen size goes up, the value does as well.

The only caveat being the low gain and the need from Lumen horsepower. You've got that so you have options.

If you want the very best in a Mfg AT "Material"....then go here.....it's not cheap, but it's basically the only thing that tops Spandex in every category, and it is available in DIY cut portions .85 gain

Quote:
I actually planned on this! I just didn't include it in my initial drawing. I was thinking of going with 4 seats with a love seat in the center - I see that octane seating has those options available. You know your stuff, though - so let me know if you have recommendations on the seating front!
You want a Space Saver design......here is one...choose the Top Leather option (5 yr All Inclusive Damage Warranty is Da Bomb if Kids are involved.)





Same sight has other options....(I like a Powered Adjustable Headrest... $$) but very few are as slimline as these and I can vouch for their comfort. A great choice for a budget but quality Seating group.

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One thing I noticed is that the STR-235158-WAB 158" Diagonal, 2.35:1 Cinematic Anamorphic 4K Ultra HD (6 Piece Fixed Frame) Projector Screen, Woven Acoustic with Backing is a TOTAL width of 153.375 inches, while my room is 152 inches wide. So unless there is a way to lop off 1 inch from that screen (or .5 inches on either side), it won't fit in that room. Their next smallest dimension is a 142 inch, which is a big step down IMO. In your experience, is there anything that can be done about this?

Electrician is coming over tomorrow morning to install the new circuit for the HT build! I should be able to start that new thread soon...!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

You want a Space Saver design......here is one...choose the Top Leather option (5 yr All Inclusive Damage Warranty is Da Bomb if Kids are involved.)
This blue text is unclickable for me - was there supposed to be a link here?
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Originally Posted by Kyle Bartels View Post
This blue text is unclickable for me - was there supposed to be a link here?

Restored

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Originally Posted by Kyle Bartels View Post
One thing I noticed is that the STR-235158-WAB 158" Diagonal, 2.35:1 Cinematic Anamorphic 4K Ultra HD (6 Piece Fixed Frame) Projector Screen, Woven Acoustic with Backing is a TOTAL width of 153.375 inches, while my room is 152 inches wide. So unless there is a way to lop off 1 inch from that screen (or .5 inches on either side), it won't fit in that room. Their next smallest dimension is a 142 inch, which is a big step down IMO. In your experience, is there anything that can be done about this?

In a Construction oriented situation, you could remove a 1.5" wide vertical slice of Drywall at each side, set the screen in place, and trim each side with Black painted Quarter-round. Of course you'll have to do that last of all....


Otherwise...as in such situations, DIY is going to be the route to take to reclaim those lost 8" due to that wide-arse Black Frame

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post #51 of 72 Old 07-15-2019, 08:46 AM
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Okay...so if I want to maximize my size it looks like I will have to DIY. I have started going down the rabbit hole this morning, starting here -> https://www.carlofet.com/build-your-...ojector-screen

Supposing I build a 158 inch diagonal screen in 1:2.39 with 2" black felt tape all the way around and 3/16 trim, I would need:

2x 149.75 1x4 pieces of lumber (for width of screen)

3x 58.75 1x4 pieces of lumber (for vertical sides, and 1 in the middle)

Plus hardware for bracing. For a screen this wide, should I run 2 cross pieces down the middle of the frame (i.e. have 4x 58.75 pieces)? Let me know if you have any plans/suggestions.

Also, should I use a french cleat to affix it to the wall? I would want something to mitigate the rattling from the subs behind the wall.

Thanks!
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post #52 of 72 Old 07-15-2019, 11:12 AM
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The biggest issue you have is that you usually cannot source 1x4 Poplar Lumber in lengths out beyond 10' (120") A very few locations will have 12'ers

That means either building a Sectional Frame, or going with carefully selected Clear Kiln Dried 2x4 pieces that you can get in 16' length...since 149.75" is out beyond the length of any 1x3- 1x4 a Hybrid 2x4 / 1x3 Frame is a pretty heavy affair

A sectional 1x4-1x3 Frame is certainly a viable option....it just needs to be straight and true....and well braced, but it can be constructed in two separate 6' 2.78" sections and Kreg'ed together.

2 - 36" wide "Hand Made" Wood French Cleats...one high and one low can pull a Frame very tight against a wall, dependent upon how straight that Wall is across the width / height of the Screen frame. Also...2 French Cleats spaced equally to each die of Center also help keep the sides against the wall...something you do have to consider with a 12'+ wide frame.

As far as the Screen build directions from Carl's.......the majority of it comes from what has been posted on this particular forum....that much is obvious. But a few things are outdated...or do not apply across the various Materials that are used. And some....they are just plain wrong.

Stretching / applying a acoustic material is a completely different "do" than a flexible material that actually stretches.

Building a "Flat Frame" the size your considering is a terrible idea.....bound to be a disaster. Your Frame should be built with the perimeter of the Frame "on edge".

Time to make some definite choices and get purposeful and directed "correct" advice...advice specifically attuned to what your project is...and needs. Don't follow generic advice when your trying to do something Custom....let those who build them that way regularly do the directing.


To that effect, I will make up a diagram for your stated sized screen for you to consider...something that addresses the things you need to address.


Gotta know what material is going to be used though.....as that can determine a few of the available choices of build regimen.

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Quote:
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2 French Cleats spaced equally to each die of Center also help keep the sides against the wall...something you do have to consider with a 12'+ wide frame.
I am not sure what "equally to each die of center" means - can you elaborate?

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Building a "Flat Frame" the size your considering is a terrible idea.....bound to be a disaster. Your Frame should be built with the perimeter of the Frame "on edge".
Do you mean that the screen shouldn't have a black border? I should build it as if projection surface is the entire screen?

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To that effect, I will make up a diagram for your stated sized screen for you to consider...something that addresses the things you need to address.


Gotta know what material is going to be used though.....as that can determine a few of the available choices of build regimen.
Awesome! I think I would want something like https://spandexworld.com/c3/catalog/product/796 and https://spandexworld.com/c3/catalog/product/15949 - that seems highly recommended around here.

I would probably move to a 151" screen if I could fine the 12' lumber that you mentioned.

Essentially copying this thread here -> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/110-d...een-build.html

Thoughts?
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post #54 of 72 Old 07-15-2019, 02:03 PM
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I am not sure what "equally to each die of center" means - can you elaborate?

Typo......should read "equally to each side of center". It was a "Speak to Text" reply over my Phone while driving...... Just as I am now....


Quote:
Do you mean that the screen shouldn't have a black border? I should build it as if projection surface is the entire screen?

You can go completely "Zero Edge"....or use Carl's 2" Tape and make the perimeter a double on edge Layer of 1x
My Diagram will give you 2 options.



Quote:
Awesome! I think I would want something like https://spandexworld.com/c3/catalog/product/796 and https://spandexworld.com/c3/catalog/product/15949 - that seems highly recommended around here.

I would probably move to a 151" screen if I could fine the 12' lumber that you mentioned.

Essentially copying this thread here -> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/110-d...een-build.html

Thoughts?

That build was a "On Flat" w/Quarter Round trim to make the Fabric "Stand Off" the Flat 1x Lumber. He also used "Screen Tight" instead of Staples....that's more involved and expensive, but some deem it worth it....especially if any future disassembly is to ever be considered.


And make note....that screen was a Zero Edge w/No Trim

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I now see what you mean by "On Flat." So, I think I have it all figured out (until you tell me I got it wrong! )

1) I would want a 163.7 inch diagonal 2.39:1 DIY screen, for which I would need:

a) 2 12' 1x4
b) 2 5.25' 1x4 (on each side of the 12' 1x4's...for a width of 151 inches 144 + 3.5 + 3.5)
c) 2 5.25' 1x4 for the cross braces (will have to be cut down 7 inches to fit inside frame)
d) 2x 12' quarter round
e) 2x 6' quarter round
f) 2 large french cleats for the top (36")
g) 2 smaller french cleats for the bottom (6" or so)
h) 1,000,000 staples (no need for screen tight unless you think it has merit)
i) Spandex. My height is 63.2 inches with this build, and on the spandex website, it says they go up to 60." Do I need to reconsider screen height so that I can get spandex that goes all the way?

I think that would do it for the build! Let me know what you think and any plans that you may have for such a build. I have learned quite a bit since this morning!

As a side note, with a viewing distance of 10', do you think this screen would be too large? And do I have anything to worry about with brightness for such a large image?

Thanks, as usual.

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post #56 of 72 Old 07-16-2019, 04:08 AM
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One thing I still haven't gotten across....such a long frame would tend to have or develop a bend or twist across such a length if built on the "Flat" Structurally, the wider dimensional area would show any curvature far more that the 3/4" area, and if there was any deformity at all, it can be pulled straight a LOT easier across that 3/4 "bow or twist.

The odds are not exactly in your favor in finding those 2 - 12' long, perfectly flat and true 1x4s. Not that they are impossible odds...and out of a large enough selection finding 2 might be doable.

But again....laying flat just isn't advisable at such extreme lengths. There....that was my last attempt at reasoning it out.

Moving on to the sheer width issue....as relates to viewing distance.

At almost 12.5' wide and a 10' viewing position, you have fallen well under the minimum distance -to-width ratio of 1:1, a ratio that already is almost (almost) already outside the peripheral limits one can endure without consciously turning one's head or "ping ponging" one's eyes to see detail and action out at the edges. Such annoyance is common among IMAX goers, but tolerated because of the unique experience. But one doesn't view IMAX presentations daily........

Would such be imposing....even grandiose? Absolutely.

Will others complain about the width?

Almost assuredly.


Will you care?


Build it...and what you care won't matter.....your stuck with it.

Width as relates to Brightness (foot lamberts - Nits)


1st off, without the 5050 being in play, we wouldn't have gotten remotely this far. At 151" (164" diagonal) you'd achieve 20 fl with White over Black Milliskin if you can place the PJ at 18'. 17' would be the minimum Throw...and you don't want to be without any Zoom adjust-ability.

Just as a comparison only.....if you made a Frame that was 133" x 56" (144" diagonal) you would still be under the minimum 1:1 Eye-to-Width ratio but still at a more reasonable compromise. Brightness would improve out to 25 fls .....that's a significant difference.

At this juncture you really need to confirm that you can even acquire 12' 1x4 sticks, and if you can, that they are usable. Not much reason to go any further down this humongous path until we receive conformation of that unlikely scenario.

If that does happen...and the fates are kind, then a specific build plan can be addressed. Among such would be the need for at least 3 Cleats up top....at Center and each end to hold that long-arse stretch of wood flat against the wall. 2 at each end down at the bottom would probably suffice.

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post #57 of 72 Old 07-16-2019, 04:54 AM
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...........oh yeah,


If you build a "Flat Frame", the diagram you'd get will show an almost "Ladder-like" construction with a minimum 6 vertical supports...and each one would have to be "Kreg'ed" in perfectly flat and flush to the exterior Frame.


156" 2.39:1 Flat Frame






Note:

If a Frame is built "On Edge" there is no need to employ 1/2" Quarter Round.
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Okay, you have talked some sense into me, and it makes a lot more sense to go "on edge" with a slightly smaller screen. On your diagram, there are no cleats to attach to wall - how do you attach to wall with this design?
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post #59 of 72 Old 07-16-2019, 11:09 AM
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Okay, you have talked some sense into me, and it makes a lot more sense to go "on edge" with a slightly smaller screen.
Oh....your EASY. Really though.....even with vertical 4 inside supports if the entire Frame is "Flat" then that length is subject to a "Bow". As to if you'd wind up with a convex or concave Bow is problematical. I salute your vision for a Epic sized Cinemascope screen....but I applaud your reasoning it out even more.

Yes...lets keep out fingers Crossed xxxx that you can find just 2- 12' long 1x4s that are dead straight on both axis. If so, all that remains is to get 6 uprights cut exactly the same length, and spaced accurately. Then you can still have 156" diagonal.

Now I don't want to toss out reason, but as I stated earlier on, a sectional screen can be done....on edge.... and allow for the size your wanting. If the Spandex does come in a full 60" width, it will easily stretch to cover a 66" tall Frame (10" @ 15%) Even just 58" = 8.7" @ 15% will sneak you by.....and my experience is that the Spandex can be carefully stretched out to 20% of it's "width, so stretching it to 18% of it's stretch potential (10") should present no problem.


That said...Go Big....or Go Away.





Quote:
On your diagram, there are no cleats to attach to wall - how do you attach to wall with this design?
I just didn't include what I thought was elemental. My Bad. I assuming too much quite often these days.


The Diagram below applies to all "On Edge Frame" Screens, and Flat Framed Screens that employ a Screen Stand-Off Trim such as Quarter Round.





The diagram above shows the Vertical Supports sideways following the width of the Frame and they are flush to the rear. For an even more rigid Frame....important for one as Long as the one being considered, turning the 1 x 3s so that the 3/4" face points forward is a very good idea. (...still Flush to the Rear...) My complete diagram above shows the supports being laid Flat. Turning them forward would mean adding 6" additional spacing equally divided between the Vertical Supports. In truth the diagram below would be the preferred method.





One thing never would change with a Sectional Screen. At the union point there are always both Flat and on Edge 1 x 3s
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post #60 of 72 Old 07-16-2019, 12:24 PM
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One thing I notice for your french cleat diagrams is that you have the frame of the screen as 1x4's, rather than 1x3's. So you use 1x4's for the perimeter of the screen and 1x3's for the vertical supports?

I am thinking that I will use this frame idea and this cleat design, with the vertical supports pointing forward (instead of flat).

This will make a good compromise between "Big as F*CK, viewing distance, brightness, AT, and budget constraints. My build list would be:

1) 2x 138 3/8 lumber (Any specific lumber? and should it be 1x4 or 1x3...?)
2) 4x 55 1/4 lumber 1x3
3) 2x 27 2/10 lumber 1x8 (I split the 6 inches extra from pointing the vertical supports forward between the 5 spaces between the supports) , ripped with a 45 degree angle for top cleats
4) 1x 25.1 inch cleat for the bottom (filling in the largest gap for the bottom cleat) 1x8

That should be my list for all of the lumber I need.

I would also need some Kreg tools/T joints and angle braces. Thoughts?

Thanks
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