Acoustically Transparent Screen - False Wall tips - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 72 Old 12-19-2013, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Okee dokee, folks. We've just moved into a new home and I am ready to begin setting up the home theater. I have 3 Polk RTi12 towers for LCR that will be behind the AT screen. I have no experience with AT screens at this point, so I'd love to hear your insight and tips prior to starting.

I'm essentially going to have to build a false wall to pull the screen wall away from the existing wall a couple feet so I can put speakers behind it. How would you recommend going about such a thing? It is in a basement with drop ceilings.

I've attached a picture, although it is not a great one. The ceiling is about 7' tall, but drops down to about 6'6" on the right side of the room. For that reason, I'm thinking I'd like to put the screen on the large open portion of the wall with the higher ceiling and then build a component rack to the right where the ceiling is lower. Essentially, when you looked at the back wall, you'd see what appears to be a wall (although the real wall would be a couple feet behind) with a large screen (~130") centered on the main part of the wall and a component rack to the right. Does that make sense?

I've also attached a fine rendering of what I'm thinking the wall will look like.

Your thoughts on how to best build this false wall will be greatly appreciated! Please also note that there is carpet.

THANK YOU! THANK YOU!!





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post #2 of 72 Old 12-20-2013, 05:40 AM
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Germ79,

Your project should not be too difficult nor expensive. But an important factor would be to know what Projector your intending to use, the format of the Screen (16:9 or 2.39:1) and the distance between the wall w/Fur Down overhead and the supposed Screen wall....less the 2' subtracted by adding the Wall.

As for the construction of the Screen Wall and what material to consider, 2 x 4 Framing attached to wood or metal struts that come off the wall behind is the best course of action to take, if the Screen partition wall isn't going to span the entire length of the Room. If it is, then you would have to rework the Ceiling Grid, or piece in Panels around Studs that protrude through the ceiling and that are secured to the ceiling joists or a Top plate attached to any existing Ceiling over the Drop ceiling.

In short, knowing the above criteria will help me or others give you some specifically directed suggestions on build methods and materials

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post #3 of 72 Old 12-20-2013, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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MM, thanks for your response. I certainly appreciate the input.

The projector is an Epson 8350. I actually have't put much thought into the screen format; guess I need to research this a bit.

What do you mean by "wall w/fur down overhead"? I did a horrible job explaining the proposed setup, so I'll take a better pic when I get home and post it. I've attached a diagram that might help a bit, although it does show the screen mounted directly on the back wall. Where the screen is labeled as read there, in the space immediately to the right is where I am proposing to house the components. Basically, the screen and the components would both be facing forward. More when I get home!

Seriously, thanks for your guidance!



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post #4 of 72 Old 12-20-2013, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is a better pic of the wall in question. The plan is to build it out and use the main portion for the screen (blue box) and the area on the right for components (green box). Does this make any more sense?

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post #5 of 72 Old 12-21-2013, 07:39 AM
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Oh...I see and understand now that bu "The Large Portion of The Wall" you meant the side to the left of the Fur Down...which BTW means a Ceiling section that boxes in a HVAC or Framing abutment. I also see that your Floor plan is reversed.

Here is a quick diagram of a proposed framing idea. It is based upon Your not deciding to take down the existing Tray Ceiling, or re-work the Grid.

1. The Wall's "primary" Top Plate would butt against the Tray Ceiling. It would "toe in" across the bottom of the Furred Plenum, and be attached to the Right Side wall and the Left Side wall.

2 Additional Studs would be cut to insert through the Ceiling Tiles and be "screwed" to the Top Plate (...from Underneath...) and attached to the upper existing Ceiling either via direct screws into Ceiling Joists, or via the shown 2x4 Blocking running laterally with the Top Plate.

3. Your Ceiling Height dictates limitations as to Screen size, as does the presence of the Furred Plenum.


You rough layout showing the screen spanning almost the entire 13'+ width is optimistic, as your PJ does not do 2.39:1 very effectively, unless your willing to let the bottom of the Screen be at 12" from the Floor...and 9" from the Drop Ceiling to achieve a 60" x 107" 122" diagonal 16:9 image (...and let the Wall be the Black masking Trim...for a "Floating Screen"...)

Personally I think you should place your Seating closer than 14'-4". Something like 12' would allow a 98" diagonal Screen to look like a much Bigger screen....even 110" would look super immersive from 12'. Projector placement can be anywhere from 12'-6" back, but should be placed as close to 13'.....no further, so as to optimize Lumen Output.

If Your seating is at 12' and the PJ Lens at 13', it's all good! Sit back at 14'=4" and the PJ would either be in front of you and very predominant...or far enough back to affect overall performance.



Building a insert-able AV Box with adjustable shelves, on whose outside Trim is attached to the outside edge of the 3/4" Plywood enclosure, will allow you to simply insert it into a framed out, braced opening, letting the Trim cover the outside edges of the Hole, and if you make the reat of the equipment enclosure a "Screwed on Panel"...then if you need to do maintenance or any re-wiring, you can simply slide the Enclosure out and set it on the Floor, and also, the nice big hole allows you to get into and behind the newly made Partition Wall.


As stated previously, use Coarse Threaded Utility (3" Drywall) Screws to attach Studs to Top Plates and Walls. It makes for a super tight, "wiggle free" framing.

Lastly, you can extend some Horizontal 2x4 Braces back from the Wall Framing to the existing Exterior Wall every other 16" O.C. space, sandwiching the ends between to vertical 2x4 Blocks laid Flat and Glued/Screwed to the Exterior Wall. Do everything as I have suggested and the partition Wall will effectively be "Cowboy Proof"....as in tossin' a Cowboy against it. tongue.gif

Of course, all of the above is how I would personally consider doing it. But that's me, and wadda I know frum nuttin'? biggrin.gif

If any of it helps you....consider the effort expended a early Christmas Present.....

Ho-Ho-Ho!
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post #6 of 72 Old 12-21-2013, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow! I'm not even sure what to say. Thank you!! This helps more than you can imagine and I appreciate it VERY much! We just moved into the house today, so let me mull this over a bit, recover from moving a family of six and I'll fire back some more questions! Early Christmas, indeed! Thanks again!
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post #7 of 72 Old 12-22-2013, 03:49 AM
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I added some extra details pertaining to potential speaker placement, as well as framing considerations to utilize acoustically transparent material such as Milliskin Spandex. I also uploaded the graphic in a larger format size so it will be both easier to view and copy.

Also, you wall will / should be a hybrid of solid veneer(drywall) and Spandex.


photo APartitionWall_zps9dfcce34.jpg

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post #8 of 72 Old 04-27-2018, 12:09 PM
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Did this ever get built?

Updated Photos?
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post #9 of 72 Old 04-29-2018, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jordancferry View Post
Did this ever get built?

Updated Photos?
germ79 went forward and built his Theater (...not certain he used my design though....) and then had a pipe burst flood his basement. That resulted in a re-build early last year...but I didn't see a post from him on here about it.

Shame that, because his other Threads on General Home Theater & Media/Game Rooms didn't get the response they deserved....and I never saw/picked up on them.

Still, the wall diagram above can serve others well as far as being a sounding board to bounce ideas off of.

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post #10 of 72 Old 06-17-2018, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
germ79 went forward and built his Theater (...not certain he used my design though....) and then had a pipe burst flood his basement. That resulted in a re-build early last year...but I didn't see a post from him on here about it.

Shame that, because his other Threads on General Home Theater & Media/Game Rooms didn't get the response they deserved....and I never saw/picked up on them.

Still, the wall diagram above can serve others well as far as being a sounding board to bounce ideas off of.
Sorry for bringing up an old post, but i have pretty much the exact same question, and MississippiMan, i'm hoping you can help out! Attached is my plan, and recently, i got wife approval to not put a TV in my false wall and just go with a fixed AT screen. I'm pretty sure i'm going to have to build the screen myself just due to cost, but my question right now is about how to setup the false wall. Currently, the wall just has studs, 16" on center. I'd like the screen to be as big as possible, that way i can choose whatever format i want. I'm thinking of putting the projector (don't have one yet) about 14-16' back. I want the LCR and Sub to be behind the screen, but don't exactly know what the best way of doing it would be. should I take out the middle studs and just have a big open space, or just leave them, as the speakers i'm fairly certain i'm going with will be small enough to go through the stud spacing.

For the Center speaker, should i look for a vertical one for simplicity, or are horizontal ones that much better (where i'll have to work the studs again)? For the Sub, i'm sure i'll have to take out at least one of those studs, but do i place it on the floor or elevate it some?

i have all of these questions and no idea where to start with them! Any help would be greatly appreciated!
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post #11 of 72 Old 06-17-2018, 06:13 PM
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Hi...........


And if it applies;Happy Father's Day.


If it don't, then send it back to me.




Good news is that your solutions will come easy. Recently another member had to build out an entire wall, and set it on long Piano Hinges so that it would swing up for rear access.


You got the bathroom sliding doors for that so BooYa!


Now the design must accommodate the Center, but to try to have the R & L Mains and the Sub? Not really doable unless you actually do a non-formatted Acoustic Wall like the other Poster did.



There are other design alternatives though, that would entail using vertical Acoustic Transparent Spandex panels in each corner, set between each end of the Screen for the R & L Mains and Sub...Panels that would be of a complimenting Color to the Room,while the Screen is the normally called for "White Milliskin Spandex over Black Milliskin Spandex.


All in all this should be neither complicated or expensive....just needful of doing a fairly precise amount of work.


Considering the PJ of choice, if changing Formats at will without a frame getting in the way is the goal, then you limited to either Epson or JVC products. Both have exceptional adjustable Zoom ranges for a given Throw distance.



If you choose 16' as your Throw:
  • the Epson 5040 can go up to 154" @ 2.39:1 and also provide up to 163" @ 16:9
  • the JVC (x590r?) can go up to 148" @ 2.39:1 and provide a 157" @ 16:9


Both screens are really not wide enough to consider placing both the Center and R & L Mains behind the screen...and doing so would be tantamount to criminal with that wide expanse of wall you have.


I'm standing ready to advise and assist you in the build design of choice....as long as I agree with it.
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post #12 of 72 Old 06-17-2018, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Hi...........


And if it applies;Happy Father's Day.


If it don't, then send it back to me.




Good news is that your solutions will come easy. Recently another member had to build out an entire wall, and set it on long Piano Hinges so that it would swing up for rear access.


You got the bathroom sliding doors for that so BooYa!


Now the design must accommodate the Center, but to try to have the R & L Mains and the Sub? Not really doable unless you actually do a non-formatted Acoustic Wall like the other Poster did.



There are other design alternatives though, that would entail using vertical Acoustic Transparent Spandex panels in each corner, set between each end of the Screen for the R & L Mains and Sub...Panels that would be of a complimenting Color to the Room,while the Screen is the normally called for "White Milliskin Spandex over Black Milliskin Spandex.


All in all this should be neither complicated or expensive....just needful of doing a fairly precise amount of work.


Considering the PJ of choice, if changing Formats at will without a frame getting in the way is the goal, then you limited to either Epson or JVC products. Both have exceptional adjustable Zoom ranges for a given Throw distance.



If you choose 16' as your Throw:
  • the Epson 5040 can go up to 154" @ 2.39:1 and also provide up to 163" @ 16:9
  • the JVC (x590r?) can go up to 148" @ 2.39:1 and provide a 157" @ 16:9


Both screens are really not wide enough to consider placing both the Center and R & L Mains behind the screen...and doing so would be tantamount to criminal with that wide expanse of wall you have.


I'm standing ready to advise and assist you in the build design of choice....as long as I agree with it.
Happy Fathers day to you too! Thank you for such a quick reply and for being so clear in your response (i'm new to this so a lot of this is hard to follow sometimes!). I actually read through the other post with the hinged wall, it was cool, but i was very glad i didn't have to do that, but that's actually where i got most of my inspiration. I don't want to be doing something that i'm going to regret later, so what would you do in this situation, in order to be most cost effective (still have 2 kids, and the rest of the basement to build out!) Based on what you said, would you recommend having the LR speakers be in-wall (i don't care if you can see the speakers, just don't want them on the wall or on stands (kids!) and the Center and sub be behind? Or would it be just as good\easy to not go AT right now, and place everything around a fixed screen (the original idea was a TV on the wall and a motorized screen recessed in the ceiling, but that's been changed, for now...). Because of how easy i can get behind the wall, i can upgrade at a later date.

My other concern now is that i have about 11' 2" of wall, from the corner to where the room naturally "stops" and becomes the "hallway" (no wall there, just a vertical support that will be framed out 8 feet from the back wall). For a 110" screen, that's around 100"W for a normal fixed frame screen with border (silverticket screen), which only leaves about a 1.3 feet on each side, which i think is too small. So what do you recommend as the "biggest" screen\image size i could put on there and still have good sound dispersion?

If i'm not being clear or leaving something out, please let me know and i'll do whatever i can to get you the info, because i need a lot of help right now!
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post #13 of 72 Old 06-17-2018, 08:50 PM
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11'-2" equates to 134" across.



I see your wall measuring 17'-2", with the Staircase cutting into the room on the Left, facing the Screen wall. Iffin' it were me, I'd make up a Screen that starts just 16" off the right side Wall/Corner and go 144" toward the left. That equates to being a 60" x 144" size and 156" diagonal @ 2.39:1 (That size would require a 16'-6" Throw)



Place the In-Walls at each side, almost on the edge of the screen, but centered in a 14" wide opening (16" O.C. Framing)


That seems to be the best you can do, unless you want to put the R & L Channels behind the extreme side edges of screen.


Examine your current Framing. Hopefully the right side framed opening coming off the side is at least 13" "inside".


The Center Channel should be a Horizontal design, but if that cannot happen, a good vertical design will suffice. Here's the thing though...you'll be best served by using RLC speakers that are specifically "timbre" matched....yet few Speaker Mfg make a Center that is as robust as a Main. Usually the Center has 2 smaller Extended Range drivers and a Dome or Horn dispersed Tweeter. Which is a "stewpid" thing when one considers the preponderance of dynamic Content a Center Channel Mix has these days.



That said, there are still a few good, reasonably priced choices where you can mix/match In-Walls with a Cabinet style Center.


Decisions, decisions. But they must be made to proceed.

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post #14 of 72 Old 06-17-2018, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
11'-2" equates to 134" across.



I see your wall measuring 17'-2", with the Staircase cutting into the room on the Left, facing the Screen wall. Iffin' it were me, I'd make up a Screen that starts just 16" off the right side Wall/Corner and go 144" toward the left. That equates to being a 60" x 144" size and 156" diagonal @ 2.39:1 (That size would require a 16'-6" Throw)



Place the In-Walls at each side, almost on the edge of the screen, but centered in a 14" wide opening (16" O.C. Framing)


That seems to be the best you can do, unless you want to put the R & L Channels behind the extreme side edges of screen.


Examine your current Framing. Hopefully the right side framed opening coming off the side is at least 13" "inside".


The Center Channel should be a Horizontal design, but if that cannot happen, a good vertical design will suffice. Here's the thing though...you'll be best served by using RLC speakers that are specifically "timbre" matched....yet few Speaker Mfg make a Center that is as robust as a Main. Usually the Center has 2 smaller Extended Range drivers and a Dome or Horn dispersed Tweeter. Which is a "stewpid" thing when one considers the preponderance of dynamic Content a Center Channel Mix has these days.



That said, there are still a few good, reasonably priced choices where you can mix/match In-Walls with a Cabinet style Center.


Decisions, decisions. But they must be made to proceed.
As always, thank you for the info, also giving me something to think about i've gone back and taken a few more pictures and tried to draw up what i was considering my "HT space". I also put on there where it was recommended to me to put the in ceiling speakers for a 5.1.2 (maybe a 5.2.2). My question was should i go 7.1 or 5.1.2 and they recommended going atmos, do you concur?

As for the media area, the 11' was from the right wall to where the room naturally stops. going all the way over to the bathroom wall wouldn't then be centered in the room. based on this info, do you think i should even attempt an AT screen or just go with a regular screen for now? hopefully the pictures help me explain what i'm trying to describe! Also, the PJ doesn't have to be at 16', thats just where i thought made the most sense, but if somewhere else does, i'm open to that as well. At this stage, things can be changed around still!
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post #15 of 72 Old 06-17-2018, 09:48 PM
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As always, thank you for the info, also giving me something to think about i've gone back and taken a few more pictures and tried to draw up what i was considering my "HT space". I also put on there where it was recommended to me to put the in ceiling speakers for a 5.1.2 (maybe a 5.2.2). My question was should i go 7.1 or 5.1.2 and they recommended going atmos, do you concur?

As for the media area, the 11' was from the right wall to where the room naturally stops. going all the way over to the bathroom wall wouldn't then be centered in the room. based on this info, do you think i should even attempt an AT screen or just go with a regular screen for now? hopefully the pictures help me explain what i'm trying to describe! Also, the PJ doesn't have to be at 16', thats just where i thought made the most sense, but if somewhere else does, i'm open to that as well. At this stage, things can be changed around still!
My recommendation is to definitely go with an AT screen and a 7.1.2 or 7.1.4 Atmos setup unless you can't mount rear speakers in your room. The AT screen will allow a wider screen since you don't need space for your L/R speakers. I went from a non acoustically transparent screen 7.2 system to a acoustically transparent screen, 6 Atmos ceiling speakers and 4 subs. Atmos is definitely worth it but take your time and do it right. I found that I like my Atmos speakers set a little more narrow (side to side when viewing the screen) since they can bounce off the side walls if too far apart. Good luck with your project, you will love it when you are done. Don't do it like me and build it without going AT screen and then tearing everything down to finally get my ultra clean theater look with the LCR hidden behind the screen with no distractions.

7.4.6 system: Processors:Marantz 8805 || Xilica XP4080 Amps: Parasound A31 and ATI AT528NC & AT526NC n-core ||Speakers: Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5 for surround & ceiling
Subs: JTR Captivator S2, JTR Captivator S1, 2 Seaton Submersive (dual 15")
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD Acoustically Transparent, 128" diagonal / 118" wide || Projector: JVC X570/RS420
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post #16 of 72 Old 06-17-2018, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
11'-2" equates to 134" across.



I see your wall measuring 17'-2", with the Staircase cutting into the room on the Left, facing the Screen wall. Iffin' it were me, I'd make up a Screen that starts just 16" off the right side Wall/Corner and go 144" toward the left. That equates to being a 60" x 144" size and 156" diagonal @ 2.39:1 (That size would require a 16'-6" Throw)



Place the In-Walls at each side, almost on the edge of the screen, but centered in a 14" wide opening (16" O.C. Framing)


That seems to be the best you can do, unless you want to put the R & L Channels behind the extreme side edges of screen.


Examine your current Framing. Hopefully the right side framed opening coming off the side is at least 13" "inside".


The Center Channel should be a Horizontal design, but if that cannot happen, a good vertical design will suffice. Here's the thing though...you'll be best served by using RLC speakers that are specifically "timbre" matched....yet few Speaker Mfg make a Center that is as robust as a Main. Usually the Center has 2 smaller Extended Range drivers and a Dome or Horn dispersed Tweeter. Which is a "stewpid" thing when one considers the preponderance of dynamic Content a Center Channel Mix has these days.



That said, there are still a few good, reasonably priced choices where you can mix/match In-Walls with a Cabinet style Center.


Decisions, decisions. But they must be made to proceed.
Why the recommendation for a horizontal center channel? That is a compromise vs. using the same LCR. Higher end speaker systems do not come with a horizontal center since it is a compromise due to most living room set up constraints. Can he not go with the AT screen?

7.4.6 system: Processors:Marantz 8805 || Xilica XP4080 Amps: Parasound A31 and ATI AT528NC & AT526NC n-core ||Speakers: Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5 for surround & ceiling
Subs: JTR Captivator S2, JTR Captivator S1, 2 Seaton Submersive (dual 15")
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD Acoustically Transparent, 128" diagonal / 118" wide || Projector: JVC X570/RS420
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post #17 of 72 Old 06-17-2018, 10:00 PM
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My recommendation is to definitely go with an AT screen and a 7.1.2 or 7.1.4 Atmos setup unless you can't mount rear speakers in your room. The AT screen will allow a wider screen since you don't need space for your L/R speakers. I went from a non acoustically transparent screen 7.2 system to a acoustically transparent screen, 6 Atmos ceiling speakers and 4 subs. Atmos is definitely worth it but take your time and do it right. I found that I like my Atmos speakers set a little more narrow (side to side when viewing the screen) since they can bounce off the side walls if too far apart. Good luck with your project, you will love it when you are done. Don't do it like me and build it without going AT screen and then tearing everything down to finally get my ultra clean theater look with the LCR hidden behind the screen with no distractions.
The back wall is the wall to a bedroom (guest, so not too worried about it) but it would be a ways back from the seating, about 8-10 feet back. I assumed that was too far back, that's why the non LCR's had to be in ceiling. i tried making in walls at ear height work but there isn't enough wall space on either side of the viewing area without adding extra walls (which was shot down). Based on my plan, where would you recommend the surrounds\atoms go? my AVR can only do 7 channels, and i won't be getting a different one of those for a long time but i can certainly wire for future now, just not sure where to go without running a lot of unnecessary wire!

As for your AT recommendation, what would you suggest the size of the screen and the speaker placement be? How far apart should the LCR and Sub be with a screen no wider than 11'? I was wanting to go 16:9 because thats what a lot of my movies and shows i currently have are in, and if i wanted to, i could then play a 2.35:1 on that. Is that not the best way of doing this?
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post #18 of 72 Old 06-17-2018, 10:46 PM
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Well here's my take...........


Stop worrying about the image being 12" difference off to the left side. You WANT 144" screen width. Also, moving Screen Center about 12" to the Left isn't going to be noticeable, and neither will adjusting your seating 12" to the left.

Don't limit yourself to a 16:9 format, because while your Library many have many titles, it would be a stretch to say over 50% of them are (...unless the collection is hoary old!) Also, virtually every new Title you acquire will be 2.39:1 / 2.40:1 formatted.

You should install the Left & Right Rear Surrounds now, while you can easily do so.

Below is a Floor Plan for a 7.2.2 system. Subs will port LFE through slots in the Screen wall Base Board. All Speakers will reside behind the 12' wide screen.



That is how I would design the room if I wanted to both be proud of the accomplishment as well as impress others.
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post #19 of 72 Old 06-17-2018, 11:14 PM
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BTW...going 16:9 will greatly restrict the available "width" (distance) between the Left - Center - Right Center speakers, condensing your sound field and affecting the aural positioning of effects.



Now if your completely serious about watch a majority of 16:9 content now and in the future, and you want the biggest screen possible, be advised that at 16'-6" the very largest 16:9 image you can get with any PJ with enough brightness to accommodate a Spandex Screen would be 74" x 132" (152" diagonal) however that would also require you to use 120" wide (tall) Spandex...it does cost more, and you'd be wasting an awful lot.


Because the 16:9 width is fixed at 132",the largest the 2.39:1 image could / would be is 55" x 132", so you would lose 5" of 2.39:1 Screen height and 12" of Screen width. All total that amounts to a loss of over 800 sq inches of screen real estate out of a possible 8640 sq inches. About 10%


Lastly, imagine having to deal with Top & Bottom Format Bars that are fully 9.5" tall and 132" long. Ghaaaaa! Side bars are much less troublesome, but a long skinny image always disappoints.

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post #20 of 72 Old 06-18-2018, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
Why the recommendation for a horizontal center channel? That is a compromise vs. using the same LCR. Higher end speaker systems do not come with a horizontal center since it is a compromise due to most living room set up constraints. Can he not go with the AT screen?
Actually many do.

Klispch THX Ultras do, in both Free Standing and In-Walls varieties.

Higher End Polk Audio

KEF

....there is a list and it's not really too short..... The fact that many such have Cabinet-style Centers to mate with their Floor Standers pretty much sez it all, and it is exactly the thing desired for a AT screen where the positioning of the Center Channel directly at the Center of the Image becomes possible.


Lastly, such Horizontal Centers are specifically designed to disperse sound on a horizontal plane....that is why they are "horizontal. That gives the a wider dispersion that is intended to cover a seating are that is wider than the "Sweet spot" most speakers have designed in.

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post #21 of 72 Old 06-18-2018, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Actually many do.

Klispch THX Ultras do, in both Free Standing and In-Walls varieties.

Higher End Polk Audio

KEF

....there is a list and it's not really too short..... The fact that many such have Cabinet-style Centers to mate with their Floor Standers pretty much sez it all, and it is exactly the thing desired for a AT screen where the positioning of the Center Channel directly at the Center of the Image becomes possible.


Lastly, such Horizontal Centers are specifically designed to disperse sound on a horizontal plane....that is why they are "horizontal. That gives the a wider dispersion that is intended to cover a seating are that is wider than the "Sweet spot" most speakers have designed in.
By higher end I meant JBL Synthsis, Procella Audio, JTR, Seaton. Pure home theater speakers that can meet THX requirements and beyond. Look at professional theaters and mixing rooms. Again they don't use horizontal centers. The reason for horizontal centers is that most people can't place speakers behind and AT screen. and they have to go above or below a TV or screen in a cabinet or in front of a screen. I am not saying that they sound bad and in fact Revel produces a horizontal center.

There are compromises: Read this article ... a follow up from a previous article from Audioholics:Center Channel Speaker Design Additional Considerations. I don't want to get into an argument but your initial assertion that you want a horizontal center is misguided. You should only use a horizontal center if you have to.
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post #22 of 72 Old 06-18-2018, 09:45 AM
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Not arguing...just trying to keep it real, not delve into the Realm of Fantasy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
By higher end I meant JBL Synthsis, Procella Audio, JTR, Seaton. Pure home theater speakers that can meet THX requirements and beyond. Look at professional theaters and mixing rooms. Again they don't use horizontal centers.

It's no argument to state that the above referenced Speakers are in fact quasi-Esoteric in pricing, and not at all in keeping with Theater projects such as the one being considered. Valid and useful information should represent attainable (...and acceptable...) choices that are in keeping with the project being discussed, not choices where some might cost as much as a new Compact Car...or more. (...your Procella system is a good case in point....well over $1400 each. USD)


Whose going to provide CPR to the OP when it's suggested he should consider a $15K-$25K Speaker system? Frankly speaking, there are very few " professional theaters and mixing rooms" that get built on these Forums. A few certainly....but they are in fact rare. Yes, many spend prodigiously on certain aspects of their systems.....or on all of it. But those Posting are not on the DIY Forums, and not even on "General Home Theaters and Media/Game Rooms.



That being the case, there are many reasonably priced Timbre matched THX Certified Speakers that are in fact specifically designed for Home Theater use.



And when a AT Screen is being used, and a mounting framework is considered so as to allow for the placement of the Center Speaker's Driver array to be at dead center of the screen, a Horizontal configured Center Channel makes excellent good sense. A vertical Tower's height will often eclipse the Height Top to Bottom of any Screen over 48" high. And unless the entire Wall is Acoustically Transparent, Bass Ports often get placed behind a wall surface



So I see your comments as being just a bit out of place in the general scheme of things for a "Normal Mortal" asking for suggestions, and counter-productive to helping someone make sensible, yet performance related choices. Now I mean that respectfully, because you do have excellent equipment and a inherent right to be proud of it. But your in the upper 2-3% of Theater Owners so some consideration as to what that means should be practiced.

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post #23 of 72 Old 06-18-2018, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
It's no argument to state that the above referenced Speakers are in fact quasi-Esoteric in pricing, and not at all in keeping with Theater projects such as the one being considered. Valid and useful information should represent attainable (...and acceptable...) choices that are in keeping with the project being discussed, not choices where some might cost as much as a new Compact Car...or more. (...your Procella system is a good case in point....well over $1400 each. USD)


Whose going to provide CPR to the OP when it's suggested he should consider a $15K-$25K Speaker system? Frankly speaking, there are very few " professional theaters and mixing rooms" that get built on these Forums. A few certainly....but they are in fact rare. Yes, many spend prodigiously on certain aspects of their systems.....or on all of it. But those Posting are not on the DIY Forums, and not even on "General Home Theaters and Media/Game Rooms.



That being the case, there are many reasonably priced Timbre matched THX Certified Speakers that are in fact specifically designed for Home Theater use.



And when a AT Screen is being used, and a mounting framework is considered so as to allow for the placement of the Center Speaker's Driver array to be at dead center of the screen, a Horizontal configured Center Channel makes excellent good sense. A vertical Tower's height will often eclipse the Height Top to Bottom of any Screen over 48" high. And unless the entire Wall is Acoustically Transparent, Bass Ports often get placed behind a wall surface



So I see your comments as being just a bit out of place in the general scheme of things for a "Normal Mortal" asking for suggestions, and counter-productive to helping someone make sensible, yet performance related choices. Now I mean that respectfully, because you do have excellent equipment and a inherent right to be proud of it. But your in the upper 2-3% of Theater Owners so some consideration as to what that means should be practiced.


He has a $4,000 budget which can get him very close to mid range Procella. But I agree that it would be slightly out of his price range.

The main point is that you specifically recommended a horizontal center. The horizontal center is a compromise and if you don’t agree with all the technical discussion and writing as to why that is then we can agree to disagree. How much difference is actually audible is a different story.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Well here's my take...........


Stop worrying about the image being 12" difference off to the left side. You WANT 144" screen width. Also, moving Screen Center about 12" to the Left isn't going to be noticeable, and neither will adjusting your seating 12" to the left.

Don't limit yourself to a 16:9 format, because while your Library many have many titles, it would be a stretch to say over 50% of them are (...unless the collection is hoary old!) Also, virtually every new Title you acquire will be 2.39:1 / 2.40:1 formatted.

You should install the Left & Right Rear Surrounds now, while you can easily do so.

Below is a Floor Plan for a 7.2.2 system. Subs will port LFE through slots in the Screen wall Base Board. All Speakers will reside behind the 12' wide screen.



That is how I would design the room if I wanted to both be proud of the accomplishment as well as impress others.
So i can't believe i didn't mention this in any of my other posts, i'm really sorry! but there is a soffit that runs the length of the main ibeam in basement. It runs parallel to the wall the stairs are attached to, which then ends at the false wall. I tried to draw it out quickly here. I had planned on putting another support under the beam, but thats why that space is so open right now. Also the stud on the far right is about 5 or 6" from the corner, i can measure tonight. I'm willing to change any of those studs though if need be, but i think because of the soffit, it makes the center of the screen question moot, right, or can i still do it?
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post #25 of 72 Old 06-19-2018, 02:57 AM
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Well gee....yeah, that does make a difference.


At 16:9, and allowing for the 6" stand-off on the right to be duplicated in a re-frame underneath the Right edge of that Plenum, the "tallest" workable image is 62"x 110"

I agree that the Plenum Soffit does present a visual divider...but it's the cut-off of available height that is most defining.

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Well gee....yeah, that does make a difference.


At 16:9, and allowing for the 6" stand-off on the right to be duplicated in a re-frame underneath the Right edge of that Plenum, the "tallest" workable image is 62"x 110"

I agree that the Plenum Soffit does present a visual divider...but it's the cut-off of available height that is most defining.

As always this is amazing and I greatly appreciate it. based on this, should I use In wall speakers or build a platform behind the wall to place the speakers on?

as for the sub, can you explain what you mean by a recessed enclosure? do you just leave enough room for the face to be flush or put something else on the wall to cover it?

I'm also ready to start pre wiring for my PJ, but I dont have one picked out yet. do you still think 16 feet is a good average distance or should I change that?

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Hi....


Gotta head out into the Field at present, will respond in more depth later with specific Equipment choices and concise placement measurements

However, the choice of speakers must define the installation requirements. In-Walls are certainly do-able. "Good THX-Rated" In-Walls preferred, budget notwithstanding. Otherwise good, well braced supportive Shelving must be considered of similar quality "Book Shelf" Speakers. (...a terrible misnomer...)

The Sub would recess back into a heavily Braced, flush mounted MDF "Box Enclosure" due to structure and Screen space limitations. It can be made to look very discreet...or even virtually invisible.

The projector best suited for your screen and still budget-oriented is the Epson5040ub
The one "I'd" like to see you get would be the JVC DLA-x590r

Either would be best set at 16'-6" Lens-to-Screen.
Get this 25' 4K Certified HDMI.
Get these Ultra Thin, shorter 4' 4K Certified HDMI for Equipment interconnects

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post #28 of 72 Old 06-19-2018, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Lastly, such Horizontal Centers are specifically designed to disperse sound on a horizontal plane....that is why they are "horizontal. That gives the a wider dispersion that is intended to cover a seating are that is wider than the "Sweet spot" most speakers have designed in.
This statement is 100% incorrect. The typical horizontally aligned center channel is designed only to increase transducer capability while not increasing vertical intrusion into a TV or non-AT screen. The more horizontal the speaker, the more poorly it responds in the horizontal axis. Think of it as an increasingly long cylinder laid on its side. Vertical response improves but since that's a disadvantage (we want less acoustic interaction with the floor and ceiling), going horizontal is nothing but disadvantage. Otherwise, why don't you ever see any 2-channel speakers since the Bose 901 designed with horizontal redundancy?

For axis agnostics, stick to point source coincident designs. For superior horizontal dispersion (reduced comb filtering, lobing, more consistent seat to seat response, less floor and ceiling distortion), go as vertical as possible. Understanding that most displays don't allow much, here is a list of acoustically responsible center channels ranked from shortest available, along with several more in-depth articles if you like: http://www.seymourav.com/centerbestpractice.asp

A horizontal center channel never makes "excellent good sense." Even on the tightest budget, three identical bookshelf speakers, all vertically oriented, across the front will offer superior acoustics for the money than any of those monstrous horizontally redundant compromises.

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Originally Posted by chriscmore View Post
This statement is 100% incorrect. The typical horizontally aligned center channel is designed only to increase transducer capability while not increasing vertical intrusion into a TV or non-AT screen. The more horizontal the speaker, the more poorly it responds in the horizontal axis. Think of it as an increasingly long cylinder laid on its side. Vertical response improves but since that's a disadvantage (we want less acoustic interaction with the floor and ceiling), going horizontal is nothing but disadvantage. Otherwise, why don't you ever see any 2-channel speakers since the Bose 901 designed with horizontal redundancy?



For axis agnostics, stick to point source coincident designs. For superior horizontal dispersion (reduced comb filtering, lobing, more consistent seat to seat response, less floor and ceiling distortion), go as vertical as possible. Understanding that most displays don't allow much, here is a list of acoustically responsible center channels ranked from shortest available, along with several more in-depth articles if you like: http://www.seymourav.com/centerbestpractice.asp



A horizontal center channel never makes "excellent good sense." Even on the tightest budget, three identical bookshelf speakers, all vertically oriented, across the front will offer superior acoustics for the money than any of those monstrous horizontally redundant compromises.



Cheers,

Chris


Thank you.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
By higher end I meant JBL Synthsis, Procella Audio, JTR, Seaton. Pure home theater speakers that can meet THX requirements and beyond. Look at professional theaters and mixing rooms. Again they don't use horizontal centers. The reason for horizontal centers is that most people can't place speakers behind and AT screen. and they have to go above or below a TV or screen in a cabinet or in front of a screen. I am not saying that they sound bad and in fact Revel produces a horizontal center.

There are compromises: Read this article ... a follow up from a previous article from Audioholics:Center Channel Speaker Design Additional Considerations. I don't want to get into an argument but your initial assertion that you want a horizontal center is misguided. You should only use a horizontal center if you have to.
You are exactly correct.
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